MML Electrification: progress updates

[cle]

Electrifying allows it to move to 2tph and EMT services on the MML to go from 5tph to 6tph (+8tph Thameslink on the fasts south of Bedford).

Any extra stops such as Luton Airport Parkway will probably require higher acceleration on electric than is available from 319s

The peak services will probably be 12 car.

Most of the route is already electrified. Bedford - Kettering will see an extra 4tph when the rest of the MML is electrified.

So come Dec 2019 - do you know what the plans and stopping patterns will be for MML services (excluding Thameslink) ?

2tph to Corby and still 2tph to each of Nottingham and Derby/Sheffield, right?

Which are the additional 4tph between Bedford and Kettering, if not just the extra Corby each way?

Any plans for more services north of Corby, like a regular rounder?

 

[DarloRich]

Badly -

Canterbury 55 mins to London, £ 73 for anytime Travelcard.

Basingstoke 44 mins to London £ 55 for anytime Travelcard.

Portsmouth £ 78.90 for anytime Travelcard.

Reading £ 52.50 for anytime Travelcard.

Newbury £ 63 for anytime Travelcard 50 minutes to London.

Bearing in mind as I pointed out Wellingborough Anytime Travelcard is over £ 100 - about 40% more than Bedford.

Peterborough anytime travel card: £119.50! (£65 Great Northern ONLY)

Harshly the TOC will charge what the market will bear. They will only alter prices to respond to falling numbers OR to drive custom for a new service OR if they are kept honest by competition.

 

[A0]

Peterborough anytime travel card: £119.50! (£65 Great Northern ONLY)

Harshly the TOC will charge what the market will bear. They will only alter prices to respond to falling numbers OR to drive custom for a new service OR if they are kept honest by competition.

Peterborough's not comparable - it's further out than Wellingborough or Kettering and probably Corby as well.

The second point is very valid - you have a choice at Peterborough - you can either get the VTEC service or you can get the GN service.

One offers Inter City standard stock, the other commuter EMUs.

What's being touted around here is Inter City prices for commuter services which is unreasonable given it would be a clear degradation on what's gone before.

 

[A0]

Any plans for more services north of Corby, like a regular rounder?

Given the wires will end at Corby, I'd suspect not beyond the two or three a day retained for driver route knowledge.

I'm not aware of any plans to extend the wires to Oakham and Melton.

 

[DarloRich]

Peterborough's not comparable - it's further out than Wellingborough or Kettering and probably Corby as well.

The second point is very valid - you have a choice at Peterborough - you can either get the VTEC service or you can get the GN service.

One offers Inter City standard stock, the other commuter EMUs.

What's being touted around here is Inter City prices for commuter services which is unreasonable given it would be a clear degradation on what's gone before.

like I said - the toc will charge what the market will bear.

At Wellingbrough ( and to a lesser extent Kettering) you have a choice - drive to Northampton. I know several people who do. If more did the price would have to come down to win them back.

 

[hwl]

So come Dec 2019 - do you know what the plans and stopping patterns will be for MML services (excluding Thameslink) ?

2tph to Corby and still 2tph to each of Nottingham and Derby/Sheffield, right?

Which are the additional 4tph between Bedford and Kettering, if not just the extra Corby each way?

I meant another 4tph running on OHLE rather that diesel on that section i.e. the electrification isn't based on just the current 1tph to Corby convering on that section.

 

[DimTim]

Listening to Chris Grayling answer questions following being hauled to the Commons after 10pm to answer question on the HS2 link to Sheffield he confirmed the link from HS2 would need to be electrified plus the return link to the north, but he was very careful to give no indication to MP's that the MML would be electrified either prior or after HS2 reaches Sheffield Midland.

 

[Grumpy]

Simple rhetorical question.

Where are the trains going when they depart Corby?

Surely it's basically a lightly used branch line (like the Henley branch-which seemingly cant justify electrification despite considerably more users) with some trains carrying on to the south?

 

[Grumpy]

Because the DMUs that exist on the Transpennine have high performance the same as an EMU and all are to be made PRM Compliant.

Because Corby is the first step to allow further MML electrification, and allows the removal of 125mph intercity diesel stock from what is a completely unsuitable service.

Presumably the 319 EDMU's will have the same performance as an EMU, can be made PRM compliant, and would facilitate withdrawal of 125mph diesel stock?

 

[Hadders]

Disgraceful pricing. Wouldn't help the Anytime fares in the morning peak but they could start by putting Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby into the Network (or Gold Card) Area.

 

[IanXC]

What's being touted around here is Inter City prices for commuter services which is unreasonable given it would be a clear degradation on what's gone before.

As far as I know we don't have any indication of what the electrified proposition will be - I would tend to agree that the pricing would be unreasonable if what we end up with is an extension of Thameslink. But given the risks in that project already I'm not sure that is a viable option.

On the other hand, the already intercity standard 379s would, to me at least, justify the current price as they compare very favourably with 222s.

 

[deltic08]

That's unfair, there has been considerable more investment in the railways (and motorways) from the Tories (and Lib Dems) since 2010 despite reducing the deficit simultaneously than under the previous Labour government.

Look at Crossrail, High Speed 2, E-W rail link and all the electrification going on.

If I am not mistaken all these schemes were started under Labour by Lord Adonis.

 

[Bald Rick]

If I am not mistaken all these schemes were started under Labour by Lord Adonis.

You are mistaken.
Define 'started'

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If I am not mistaken all these schemes were started under Labour by Lord Adonis.

You are mistaken

 

[InOban]

The Crossrail Bill went through parliament under Labour, and construction had begun before the 2010 election, although it had all party support.

And HS2 ltd was set up by the labour government. The Coalition merely reviewed the proposals which had already been published and approved before the 2010 election.

 

[mushroomchow]

Screw it, it seems like a bit of an open secret by now, and my other thread got deleted, so might as well confirm it - electrification is being cancelled north of Corby. Not mothballed or deferred, cancelled.

Government have decided that it's unneccesary to electrify when HS2 will provide an electrified service to the north along that corridor, and bugger the consequences for local growth and rolling stock cascading over the next decades for the EM franchise once intercity units become more scarce. Bi-mode IEP units, as proposed, are now pointless as the majority of the route will remain "without wires". Derby and Leicester in particular have been shafted.

At least we might get a few extra years out of the HSTs from this announcement - silver lining and all that.

 

[A0]

Screw it, it seems like a bit of an open secret by now, and my other thread got deleted, so might as well confirm it - electrification is being cancelled north of Corby. Not mothballed or deferred, cancelled.

Government have decided that it's unneccesary to electrify when HS2 will provide an electrified service to the north along that corridor, and bugger the consequences for local growth and rolling stock cascading over the next decades for the EM franchise once intercity units become more scarce. Bi-mode IEP units, as proposed, are now pointless as the majority of the route will remain "without wires". Derby and Leicester in particular have been shafted.

At least we might get a few extra years out of the HSTs from this announcement - silver lining and all that.

Well - there's no empirical evidence that not electrifying the line won't result in growth. There are practical things which can be done to improve journey times on the MML that are not dependent on electrification - in the same way ECML times were accelerated in the late 60s.

Add in, new trains to replace the HSTs will also help - be they more Cl 800 bi modes or Stadler FLIRTs.

Electrification's biggest benefits are on stop/start commuter services - the bit of the MML which is already wired.

Sheffield, Leicester, Nottingham and Derby don't have an 'urban' rail network in the way Birmingham and the West Mids, Manchester, Liverpool or London do with a load of short-ish commuter services.

 

[kevjs]

Stuart Thomas (head of BBC East Midlands) is reporting that the Electrication of the Midland Mainline has been scrapped between Kettering Nottingham and Sheffield and new Bi-mode trains are to be ordered

https://twitter.com/stuartthomas/status/887961486110453760

(With similar scrapping between Cardiff and Swansea and between Windemere and Oxenholme)

 

[Mordac]

Yep, here's the DfT annoucement: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-bi-mode-train-technology

 

[A0]

Yep, here's the DfT annoucement: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-bi-mode-train-technology

Well the logic around how technology is evolving means this decision is quite sensible in many ways.

Compare it with the BR approach in the 1950s - other countries were pressing ahead with diesel and electric, so BR went out and built a whole new fleet of steam locos which were then rendered redundant in less than 20 years.

Electrifying means alot of disruption and infrastructure. Even conservatively it would take 3 years to complete the MML from Kettering to Sheffield - that's before the trains start running. Yet in 10 years alternative technology may mean that the same benefits can be achieved without that disruption, rendering some of the electric requirements obsolete.

 

[nicjoynson]

And Kettering to Corby? No electrification north of Kettering is what I read.

Nic

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know what traction the MML is going to have. Maybe they'll be using bi-modes to bridge the non-electrified gap between Kettering and Sheffield and the under-engineered-for-125-mph electrified gap between St Pancras and Bedford!

Intercity bi-modes mentioned in consultation document for new franchise: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...dlands-rail-franchise-public-consultation.pdf but it also says Corby to St Pancras should be fully electrified by December 2019.

 

[A0]

And Kettering to Corby? No electrification north of Kettering is what I read.

Nic

I would assume Corby will happen as it's already in flight and the Corby's could me made self contained. My reading of it was not north of Kettering on the mainline i.e Market Harborough, Leicester etc.

 

[LTJ87]

Could the tone of DfT's announcement be any more patronising?

 

[jfowkes]

The government statement refers to a "significant upgrade of the Midland Main Line, the biggest investment in the route since it was completed in 1870".

Any idea what that would entail? What works are planned?

 

[Mordac]

The government statement refers to a "significant upgrade of the Midland Main Line, the biggest investment in the route since it was completed in 1870".

Any idea what that would entail? What works are planned?

At a guess, I would say all the non-electrification works that were planned, like increasing track speed through Market Harborough, Derby resignalling...

Maybe even something new thrown in as a consolation prize.

 

[ScotGG]

No doubt bi-mode diesel trains will start running as diesel cars are banned from cities along the route. Already in motion in many places so no doubt UK cities will follow over the coming decade. Gotta laugh.

 

[Roose]

Sheffield City Council must now be wondering where that leaves their little branch off HS2 now that the electric HS2 units won't be able to link to an electrified MML before Chesterfield.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

New fleet of bi-modes from 2022 is the sop for cancelling electrification north of Kettering.
We can forget the linked schemes like the XC routes too.
It remains to be seen if the Thameslink OHLE south of Bedford will be upgraded to 125mph.

 

[mr_jrt]

My, it's going to be interesting when oil prices get back up to where they're likely to be in 10 years and that electrification is going to start looking cheap by comparison and we're saddled with a lot of expensive intensive diesel mileage needing urgent wiring to prevent running cost budgets being blown.

I'm not a fan of bi-modes - I would have preferred diesel locos generating the power to power all-electric EMUs instead (that could obviously run without the loco when on the wires), but given we have bi-modes, then surely the main advantage of them is that they enable piecemeal electrification, so the obvious move here would be to move to a gradual rolling programme where shorter sections could be completed without having to complete huge projects in one big bang - i.e. rather than Kettering to Sheffield in one project, why not just slowly let the wires creep northwards gradually, with the switchover point moving with them as each bit gets turned on?