MML Electrification: progress updates

[RichmondCommu]

As someone who regularly used Gloucester Eastgate 60 years ago, what is a "Gloucester Eastgate"?

I wonder if it perhaps means no Intercity services stop there.

 

[NickBucks]

If you Google " Gloucester Stations" the Wikipedia entry sums up the situation regarding Gloucester station and the history thereof. Apologies for not reverting to topic.

 

[HSTEd]

No, it is so the Chancellor can spend an additional £5b annually on new roads instead of upgrading local rail routes that have seen 200% growth since the mid 1990s and now heaving in the peaks.

The Chancellor could do both if he wanted to.
There is no limited pot of money.

But he choses to show reductions in the deficit than to fund infrastructure.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As someone who regularly used Gloucester Eastgate 60 years ago, what is a "Gloucester Eastgate"?

I coined it (as a verb) to mean 'shafted'. IMO, that's what BR (and the local authority) did to Gloucester back in 75, effectively eliminating it off the InterCity network. OK, so later the Nottingham-Cardiff services, which are fast, improved things, but bar one train, it has been eliminated from the Bristol - Brum - Manchester/Leeds expresses that otherwise regularly stopped there. (And in the case of Gloucester, it has only has stopping services southbound to Bristol during the day.)

Similar was planned for Wellingborough, had they electrified back in the 80s. It would have been relegated to an outer suburban station. At least, that was the fear.

 

[Taunton]

No, it is so the Chancellor can spend an additional £5b annually on new roads instead of upgrading local rail routes that have seen 200% growth since the mid 1990s and now heaving in the peaks.

They are generally heaving at the peaks because of sending out 2-car units where. until the mid-1990s, there would have been a 6-car classic dmu. Not particularly to do with infrastructure.

And even if the trains were built and available, the TOCs wouldn't want them because it is more financially worthwhile to Pack 'em In. More revenue, no more cost.

 

[deltic08]

I coined it (as a verb) to mean 'shafted'. IMO, that's what BR (and the local authority) did to Gloucester back in 75, effectively eliminating it off the InterCity network. OK, so later the Nottingham-Cardiff services, which are fast, improved things, but bar one train, it has been eliminated from the Bristol - Brum - Manchester/Leeds expresses that otherwise regularly stopped there. (And in the case of Gloucester, it has only has stopping services southbound to Bristol during the day.)

Similar was planned for Wellingborough, had they electrified back in the 80s. It would have been relegated to an outer suburban station. At least, that was the fear.

Yes I understand now. Gloucester City Council wanted to close the Barton Loop because of the number of level crossing through that part of the City. BR required little persuading.

As you say, this buggered up through services between Brum and Bristol and added time onto Cheltenham/Gloucester-Paddington services due to reversal at Central.

Eastgate was a very typical Midland station as Central was very typical GWR, but just very 1970s boring now.

 

[deltic08]

They are generally heaving at the peaks because of sending out 2-car units where. until the mid-1990s, there would have been a 6-car classic dmu. Not particularly to do with infrastructure.

And even if the trains were built and available, the TOCs wouldn't want them because it is more financially worthwhile to Pack 'em In. More revenue, no more cost.

I quoted resignalling Harrogate-York delayed until 2029. Without it Harrogate-York will remain hourly when the other side of the Loop to Leeds will see 4 trains an hour from December 2017. Additional infrastructure is required, not just an increase in train length.

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind members that this thread is entitled MML Electrification and request that we stay on topic! Redoubling Harrogate to York and the Beeching changes to Gloucester are off topic!

thanks

 

[Taunton]

I think I'm on topic for the MML by pointing out the current MML timetable has an hourly 4 or 5 car Meridian come south from all of Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, EM Parkway, Loughborough and Leicester, followed just a few minutes later by an 8 car HST from just Nottingham, EM Parkway and Leicester. As a result, hour after hour through the day, the Meridian is rammed and the HST mostly empty. The latter even regularly gets delayed by the Meridian being the chosen service to stop at Loughborough.

Electrification or not, this sort of inefficient scheduling is wholly down to the operator, rather than anything with the infrastructure.

 

[Mordac]

I think I'm on topic for the MML by pointing out the current MML timetable has an hourly 4 or 5 car Meridian come south from all of Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, EM Parkway, Loughborough and Leicester, followed just a few minutes later by an 8 car HST from just Nottingham, EM Parkway and Leicester. As a result, hour after hour through the day, the Meridian is rammed and the HST mostly empty. The latter even regularly gets delayed by the Meridian being the chosen service to stop at Loughborough.

Electrification or not, this sort of inefficient scheduling is wholly down to the operator, rather than anything with the infrastructure.

It's to do with the fact that HSTs can't much the 222s in acceleration, so they get put on limited stop services.

 

[Jordeh]

The Chancellor could do both if he wanted to.
There is no limited pot of money.

But he choses to show reductions in the deficit than to fund infrastructure.

That's unfair, there has been considerable more investment in the railways (and motorways) from the Tories (and Lib Dems) since 2010 despite reducing the deficit simultaneously than under the previous Labour government.

Look at Crossrail, High Speed 2, E-W rail link and all the electrification going on.

 

[Chester1]

That's unfair, there has been considerable more investment in the railways (and motorways) from the Tories (and Lib Dems) since 2010 despite reducing the deficit simultaneously than under the previous Labour government.

Look at Crossrail, High Speed 2, E-W rail link and all the electrification going on.

I agree. The government is happy to invest in rail infrastructure but is reluctant to allow Network Rail to borrow more or receive more government grants. I can't say I blame them after the farce of electrification. The government is choosing to direct rail investment away from NR and unfortunately this hurts the MML. Jordeh missed out the support for and partial funding of light rail.

 

[IKBrunel]

That's unfair, there has been considerable more investment in the railways (and motorways) from the Tories (and Lib Dems) since 2010 despite reducing the deficit simultaneously than under the previous Labour government.

Indeed local and national administrations often make political capital boasting about projects conceived in the previous gov't such is the nature of long term infrastructure planning and short term political cycles.

 

[mr_jrt]

That's unfair, there has been considerable more investment in the railways (and motorways) from the Tories (and Lib Dems) since 2010 despite reducing the deficit simultaneously than under the previous Labour government.

Look at Crossrail, High Speed 2, E-W rail link and all the electrification going on.

Hold on a mo...would that be the:

• Crossrail project that gained Royal Assent on 22 July 2008
• HS2 project whose company (HS2 Ltd.) was established in January 2009
• GWML and NW Electrification signed off on 23 July 2009

...remind me again when the coalition government was elected?

I'll give you EWR (as that was greenlit in Autumn 2011), but again, remind me again how much has been spent on that, given the last Labour government was saying in 2008 it would look at private financing for the project, which sounds eerily similar to what the current government has said it's pursuing for the project.

 

[Jordeh]

Hold on a mo...would that be the:

• Crossrail project that gained Royal Assent on 22 July 2008
• HS2 project whose company (HS2 Ltd.) was established in January 2009
• GWML and NW Electrification signed off on 23 July 2009

...remind me again when the coalition government was elected?

I'll give you EWR (as that was greenlit in Autumn 2011), but again, remind me again how much has been spent on that, given the last Labour government was saying in 2008 it would look at private financing for the project, which sounds eerily similar to what the current government has said it's pursuing for the project.

Any of these projects could have been shelved to try to reduce the deficit except they haven't been. There has been investment in other infrastructure too such as further electrification schemes, the aforementioned light rail projects and spending on roads too.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Any of these projects could have been shelved to try to reduce the deficit except they haven't been. There has been investment in other infrastructure too such as further electrification schemes, the aforementioned light rail projects and spending on roads too.

Exactly

both Birmingham area electrification schemes
not all NW schemes were signed off on pre May 2010
GOBLIN
etc

 

[38Cto15E]

I was reading in Rail magazine that Corby is due to be an electric service in 2019, surely it will be later than that?

 

[snowball]

I was reading in Rail magazine that Corby is due to be an electric service in 2019, surely it will be later than that?

Why do you say that? If you'd asked three years ago they would have said they'd have reached Derby and Nottingham by then. Bedford-Kettering-Corby is the only part of the plan that is still definitely going ahead, and is expected to be finished by December 2019.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hold on a mo...would that be the:

• Crossrail project that gained Royal Assent on 22 July 2008
• HS2 project whose company (HS2 Ltd.) was established in January 2009
• GWML and NW Electrification signed off on 23 July 2009

...remind me again when the coalition government was elected?

I'll give you EWR (as that was greenlit in Autumn 2011), but again, remind me again how much has been spent on that, given the last Labour government was saying in 2008 it would look at private financing for the project, which sounds eerily similar to what the current government has said it's pursuing for the project.

Very selective. The decision to form a company is not the go ahead for a project, nor is the decision to grant it consent. The 'green light' is given by a government decision on funding.

Crossrail 1 was in October 2007.
HS2 was in 2012, and then reaffirmed a few times.

 

[AndyW33]

I think I'm on topic for the MML by pointing out the current MML timetable has an hourly 4 or 5 car Meridian come south from all of Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, EM Parkway, Loughborough and Leicester, followed just a few minutes later by an 8 car HST from just Nottingham, EM Parkway and Leicester. As a result, hour after hour through the day, the Meridian is rammed and the HST mostly empty. The latter even regularly gets delayed by the Meridian being the chosen service to stop at Loughborough.

Electrification or not, this sort of inefficient scheduling is wholly down to the operator, rather than anything with the infrastructure.

Given the acceleration issues others have mentioned, what exactly do you suggest should be done about this "inefficient scheduling"?
A lot of the constraint on the MML is platform capacity at St Pancras and line capacity between St Pancras and Bedford. It's no good swapping the HST and the Meridian over unless you also extend the time interval between the two trains, otherwise the Nottingham service will get delayed even more often. But this might not be possible if there are Thameslink services using the fasts for part of their journey, and altering the times or pathing of Thameslink can have impacts as far away as Brighton.
And of course if you swap the stock of the southbound trains over you have to do the same for the northbound ones too. (which would also have the effect of the Meridian leaving St Pancras a few minutes before the HST and getting wedged as far as Leicester). If that means the train to Sheffield is later into Derby, what impact does that have on Cross Country services between Nottingham and Birmingham/Cardiff sharing track between Sheet Stores Jct and Derby, and on the long distance Cross Country routes sharing tracks between Derby and Sheffield, or on TPE and Northern sharing tracks between Dore and Sheffield?
EMT doesn't operate in a vacuum, nor is it solely responsible for scheduling. Ultimately that's Network Rail because all those other TOCs (and FOCs) will have wishlists of their own, and some will conflict.

But if you've got a new idea, please share it. You just might have something nobody else has thought of.

 

[The Ham]

I was reading in Rail magazine that Corby is due to be an electric service in 2019, surely it will be later than that?

National Grid are talking about the next phase (power supply in the Market Harborough area) being in 2020:

http://media.nationalgrid.com/press...station-at-braybrooke-near-market-harborough/

Andrea Robertson, project manager at National Grid, said: “Our proposed new electricity substation will provide supplies to the proposed new trackside feeder station which Network Rail will build as part of its Midland Main Line upgrade and electrification programme. We want to hear local people’s views on the substation before we apply for planning permission around the end of July and look forward to engaging with the community at the event.”


The Midland Main Line railway is undergoing the largest upgrade since it was completed in 1870. Upgrades to the line include track realignment, station remodelling, capacity works, bridge reconstructions and signalling improvements. In addition, the line from Bedford via Kettering to Corby will be electrified by December 2019 – enabling faster, more efficient trains to operate on the network and a quieter, cleaner environment for lineside neighbours.


The new substation is one of four new supply points along the railway. The first at Charlton in London is underway. The second at Braybrooke is needed for October 2020.

As you can see it also talks about Corby being done by December 2019.

 

[richieb1971]

Was lots of lights and action at Sharnbrook junction the other night.

 

[38Cto15E]

OK, everyone seems happy with the December 2019 date for the Corby electrification.

Will the lines from Sharnbrook Jct to Kettering South be reinstated to 4 track?
Finally will all lines between Bedford and Kettering Jct be electrified?
TIA

 

[Grumpy]

OK, everyone seems happy with the December 2019 date for the Corby electrification.

I don't see how you can justify electrifying Corby, which has a basic hourly service, when a case apparently cant be made for Leeds-Manchester with a much more intensive service level.
Surely Corby would be more suitable for the class 319 EDMU conversions?

 

[furnessvale]

I don't see how you can justify electrifying Corby, which has a basic hourly service, when a case apparently cant be made for Leeds-Manchester with a much more intensive service level.
Surely Corby would be more suitable for the class 319 EDMU conversions?

Simple rhetorical question.

Where are the trains going when they depart Corby?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't see how you can justify electrifying Corby, which has a basic hourly service, when a case apparently cant be made for Leeds-Manchester with a much more intensive service level.
Surely Corby would be more suitable for the class 319 EDMU conversions?

Because the DMUs that exist on the Transpennine have high performance the same as an EMU and all are to be made PRM Compliant.

Because Corby is the first step to allow further MML electrification, and allows the removal of 125mph intercity diesel stock from what is a completely unsuitable service.

 

[A0]

I don't see how you can justify electrifying Corby, which has a basic hourly service, when a case apparently cant be made for Leeds-Manchester with a much more intensive service level.
Surely Corby would be more suitable for the class 319 EDMU conversions?

I take it you've seen the fares charged to Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough passengers compared to Bedford, Northampton or Huntingdon?

The biggest challenge EMT is going to have is justifying the massively inflated fares at those stations, particularly if they lose their Inter City standard stock in favour of standard commuter EMUs.

 

[DarloRich]

I take it you've seen the fares charged to Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough passengers compared to Bedford, Northampton or Huntingdon?

The biggest challenge EMT is going to have is justifying the massively inflated fares at those stations, particularly if they lose their Inter City standard stock in favour of standard commuter EMUs.

No need to justify anything. Put harshly: Pay or walk to walk.

How do those fares compare to comparable journey lengths/time on Southern?SE or SWT?

 

[hwl]

I don't see how you can justify electrifying Corby, which has a basic hourly service, when a case apparently cant be made for Leeds-Manchester with a much more intensive service level.
Surely Corby would be more suitable for the class 319 EDMU conversions?

Electrifying allows it to move to 2tph and EMT services on the MML to go from 5tph to 6tph (+8tph Thameslink on the fasts south of Bedford).

Any extra stops such as Luton Airport Parkway will probably require higher acceleration on electric than is available from 319s

The peak services will probably be 12 car.

Most of the route is already electrified. Bedford - Kettering will see an extra 4tph when the rest of the MML is electrified.

 

[A0]

No need to justify anything. Put harshly: Pay or walk to walk.

How do those fares compare to comparable journey lengths/time on Southern?SE or SWT?

Badly -

Canterbury 55 mins to London, £ 73 for anytime Travelcard.

Basingstoke 44 mins to London £ 55 for anytime Travelcard.

Portsmouth £ 78.90 for anytime Travelcard.

Reading £ 52.50 for anytime Travelcard.

Newbury £ 63 for anytime Travelcard 50 minutes to London.

Bearing in mind as I pointed out Wellingborough Anytime Travelcard is over £ 100 - about 40% more than Bedford.