MML Electrification: progress updates

[richieb1971]

Rubbish - in any well run business they know EXACTLY where the money is going - it's how you know where to look for savings and improvements.

Businesses tend to fail because they haven't responded to changing demands which leads to a decline in income whilst costs remain the same. And unless that is addressed they eventually run out of money.

Whilst no doubt there are costs arising from H&S or Environmental legislation such costs impact all businesses, not just the railways - e.g. WEEE legislation has hit retailers and distributors for example - yet they've managed to incorporate it into their overall business models without massively increasing costs.

My company thought paying a 3rd party for disaster recovery was a great idea. We paid £250k. A few weeks later people changed minds and it went nowhere. For £250k we got a piece of paper. Thats the type of black hole i'm talking about. Just talking about something costs money, just signing a piece of paper costs money. To me, its sickening that so much money could potentially be pumped around with nothing actually happening. But it happens every single minute of every single day.

And the other guy is correct, there are a few hundred men in suits absolutely milking this cash cow making millions for their companies before a spade goes in the ground.

How many men who do surveys actually go to the area that need surveying and actually do any work. They look, they see.. they walk away and sign it off or not. Thats £25k job right there.

How many tiers of companies are getting handsomely paid when one company should have EVERYONE in it that specializes in every area? You say you'll do the job for a single price, all the bits are summarized in a single billing document and the job gets done by that one company.

THEN you know who got paid.

The complexity of the situation hides everything you need to know.. But never will.

HS2 - £50 billion. I'd want gold rails and diamond studded sleepers with trains that have carriages like the Royal train for that kind of money. We might need it, but its not value for money.

 

[DarloRich]

My company thought paying a 3rd party for disaster recovery was a great idea. We paid £250k. A few weeks later people changed minds and it went nowhere. For £250k we got a piece of paper. Thats the type of black hole i'm talking about. Just talking about something costs money, just signing a piece of paper costs money. To me, its sickening that so much money could potentially be pumped around with nothing actually happening. But it happens every single minute of every single day.

How do you think the economy works? Your employer is pumping money around to people like you by employing you. Your view of the world, especially the world of business, is incredibly simplistic and lacks any sort of maturity or sophistication.

And the other guy is correct, there are a few hundred men in suits absolutely milking this cash cow making millions for their companies before a spade goes in the ground.

Can you offer any examples of these men in suits hanging about?

How many men who do surveys actually go to the area that need surveying and actually do any work. They look, they see.. they walk away and sign it off or not. Thats £25k job right there.

What on earth are you talking about? You constantly spout this kind of rubbish and make wild accusations without any proof. It is maddening.

How many tiers of companies are getting handsomely paid when one company should have EVERYONE in it that specializes in every area? You say you'll do the job for a single price, all the bits are summarized in a single billing document and the job gets done by that one company.

THEN you know who got paid.

The complexity of the situation hides everything you need to know.. But never will.

again -what on earth are you talking about?

HS2 - £50 billion. I'd want gold rails and diamond studded sleepers with trains that have carriages like the Royal train for that kind of money. We might need it, but its not value for money.

How much do you think it should cost? Do you ever try to learn & understand anything suggested to you?

 

[richieb1971]

It matters not what I think.

What matters is if the tax payer feels they are getting value for money. The government should really only spend if they can afford it. And if they spend the money, they should make sure every single penny is channelled into the project.

At the moment steel is cheaper than ever, yet the cost of the railway building industry is higher than it has ever been. Something wrong there.

 

[Hophead]

Not sure if this is mentioned in previous pages (and, if it is, here's a reminder). The current issue of Rail Engineer has a piece on MML upgrade and includes the following:

Piling is due to start between Kettering and Corby in May and between Bedford and Kettering in October. If all goes to plan, the line from Bedford to Kettering and Corby will be energised in 2019, reaching Sheffield four years later. Network Rail is predicting a 30 per cent growth in passenger numbers along the corridor over the next 10 years and the upgrade is key to preparing one of Britain’s oldest routes for the future.

 

[DarloRich]

It matters not what I think.

What matters is if the tax payer feels they are getting value for money. The government should really only spend if they can afford it. And if they spend the money, they should make sure every single penny is channelled into the project.

At the moment steel is cheaper than ever, yet the cost of the railway building industry is higher than it has ever been. Something wrong there.

What do you mean by make sure every single penny is channelled into the project? Can you try to explain? You constantly spout this kind of rubbish but can't explain what you think beyond the most simplistic concepts

I assume you understand that raw the costs of steel has little impact on project costs - Btw steel prices are NOT cheaper than ever

Sadly despite my frustration forum rules prevent me from expressing my sheer bewilderment at this poster

 

[Flying Phil]

Thanks for that update Hophead
- is there any reason why they have not electrified from Bedford first or is it better to do the Corby stretch as they are "on site" following rail doubling?

 

[Roast Veg]

I think you've answered your own question there. No need to modify the current access arrangements to the line, and a lot of the paperwork is ready to go.

 

[deltic08]

What do you mean by make sure every single penny is channelled into the project? Can you try to explain? You constantly spout this kind of rubbish but can't explain what you think beyond the most simplistic concepts

I assume you understand that raw the costs of steel has little impact on project costs - Btw steel prices are NOT cheaper than ever

Sadly despite my frustration forum rules prevent me from expressing my sheer bewilderment at this poster

The price of ferrous scrap is the lowest it has been for over ten years. That is usually a barometer of steel prices.

 

[richieb1971]

What do you mean by make sure every single penny is channelled into the project? Can you try to explain? You constantly spout this kind of rubbish but can't explain what you think beyond the most simplistic concepts

I assume you understand that raw the costs of steel has little impact on project costs - Btw steel prices are NOT cheaper than ever

Sadly despite my frustration forum rules prevent me from expressing my sheer bewilderment at this poster

I'm sorry someone you don't know that you don't care anything about can make you so emotionally involved. The internet has every walk of life in it.

All I am saying in my own words is that MML electrification is not money well spent. That is my right to say that as a tax payer.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm sorry someone you don't know that you don't care anything about can make you so emotionally involved. The internet has every walk of life in it.

All I am saying in my own words is that MML electrification is not money well spent. That is my right to say that as a tax payer.

It is your right. It however had an extremely high BCR - much higher than the GWML for instance.

 

[A0]

My company thought paying a 3rd party for disaster recovery was a great idea. We paid £250k. A few weeks later people changed minds and it went nowhere. For £250k we got a piece of paper. Thats the type of black hole i'm talking about. Just talking about something costs money, just signing a piece of paper costs money. To me, its sickening that so much money could potentially be pumped around with nothing actually happening. But it happens every single minute of every single day.

Sorry - what do you expect a supplier to do? Work for nothing?

FFS - the example you've given is a straight-forward process failure in whatever organisation you work in. Why a PO for £ 250k was approved without ever obtaining a deliverable is the question which should be addressed.

Is £ 250k good value for DR? No idea - it depends on what the scale of the DR is, what the recovery routines are, what the SLAs and OLAs are - all really obvious stuff.

Having worked in a number of FTSE 100 companies I know getting a PO signed off for £ 250k is not an easy feat in most cases and therefore usually would attract a lot of scrutiny and just "losing" £ 250k would not be regarded as acceptable.

I suspect you're not in possession of the full facts - a bit like most of the other claims you make.

 

[DarloRich]

The price of ferrous scrap is the lowest it has been for over ten years. That is usually a barometer of steel prices.

New steel isnt at its lowest price for 10 years and neither is scrap although they have fallen since December 2016

 

[YorkshireBear]

What matters is if the tax payer feels they are getting value for money. The government should really only spend if they can afford it. And if they spend the money, they should make sure every single penny is channelled into the project.

At the moment steel is cheaper than ever, yet the cost of the railway building industry is higher than it has ever been. Something wrong there.

If we based our investment on what the taxpayers wanted we'd never do anything as there would never be a consensus.

That's because actually it costs much more to do everything that isn't steel.... Groundworks is where the money goes mostly, especially on a new project like HS2.

 

[duffield]

All I am saying in my own words is that MML electrification is not money well spent. That is my right to say that as a tax payer.

My understanding (from what I read a few years back) is that the BCR of MML electrification was so high that it would be a waste of taxpayers money *not* to do it.

 

[HSTEd]

My understanding (from what I read a few years back) is that the BCR of MML electrification was so high that it would be a waste of taxpayers money *not* to do it.

It was, using the absurdly low price of electrification Network Rail was using at the time

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If we based our investment on what the taxpayers wanted we'd never do anything as there would never be a consensus.

Correct - which we don't really have as far as railways are concerned. Adonis and McLaughlin were better leaders IMHO.

 

[Kneedown]

It was, using the absurdly low price of electrification Network Rail was using at the time

But surely that would apply equally to all proposed electeification projects?

 

[asylumxl]

It was, using the absurdly low price of electrification Network Rail was using at the time

If the BCR for the MML was indeed higher than the GWML, it'll still be more beneficial. The MML electrification is a no brainier which has been passed over far too many times.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the BCR for the MML was indeed higher than the GWML, it'll still be more beneficial. The MML electrification is a no brainier which has been passed over far too many times.

The MML electrification (finishing at Sheffield) does absolutely nothing for the wider network.
It is purely a local scheme.
At the very least it needs to connect to Doncaster and Leeds.
Then what do you do with the 222s?

 

[edwin_m]

The MML electrification (finishing at Sheffield) does absolutely nothing for the wider network.
It is purely a local scheme.
At the very least it needs to connect to Doncaster and Leeds.
Then what do you do with the 222s?

Leaving aside the question of what the BCR is now, the analysis suggested that the MML would be among the best value for money amongst possible electrification schemes. It's possible add-ons of this type could improve the business case further by allowing more services to go over to electric and reducing diesel running under the wires.

As I alluded to further back there is no obvious home for the 222s after electrification. Some could go to Nottingham-Cardiff where matching performance with Voyagers would help with capacity between Derby and Cheltenham. Chiltern could be a possibility. They could also replace some of the XC 221s (they are incompatible so would need to be operated separately, but do have many common components). The 221s could then have tilt restored to provide more service to non-electrified destinations off the WCML.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The MML electrification (finishing at Sheffield) does absolutely nothing for the wider network.
It is purely a local scheme.
At the very least it needs to connect to Doncaster and Leeds.

Then when done the business case to York from Sheffield starts to look better as does Stoke - O -T to Derby and Nottingham - Grantham.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Sheffield end of the MML will be wired regardless of the cost because of the needs of HS2 and NPR/HS3. These concepts simply don't work unless the core network is electrified, as the additional mass of engines or batteries is intolerable on a train designed to run at 360-400km/h. As such I think it can be expected that the entire Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield triangle will be wired regardless of what else happens on the network. This also involves a reasonable chunk of the Sheffield to ECML link too for NPR purposes. A programme to electrify from Kettering to Clay Cross is then going to have an even better case than the traditional MML wiring scheme.

 

[Voglitz]

Leaving aside the question of what the BCR is now, the analysis suggested that the MML would be among the best value for money amongst possible electrification schemes.

There's no evidence.

 

[edwin_m]

There's no evidence.

The document we are discussing is far from perfect. But it contains a good deal more evidence than anything I've seen you post on this forum.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There's no evidence.

? eh - the RUS of 2009 and other documents have suggested - little evidence possibly - no evidence -come on.

 

[Voglitz]

? eh - the RUS of 2009 and other documents have suggested - little evidence possibly - no evidence -come on.

The electrification RUS states "In the case of Midland Main Line the value is technically infinite given that it involves a net industry cost saving rather than
a cost."

I don't see any calculation of the net industry cost saving. What is it, in £?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The electrification RUS states "In the case of Midland Main Line the value is technically infinite given that it involves a net industry cost saving rather than a cost."

I don't see any calculation of the net industry cost saving. What is it, in £?

I do not think I have seen the calcs for any scheme to be honest. I am sure in the current political climate with the budget coming and the HLOS statement due in June(?) and other recent announcements that before any other schemes progress we will see more detailed calculations. I would also expect Roger Ford to chime in while doing an article in MR.

 

[snowball]

The MML electrification (finishing at Sheffield) does absolutely nothing for the wider network.
It is purely a local scheme.
At the very least it needs to connect to Doncaster and Leeds.
Then what do you do with the 222s?

Nothing immediate but it gives us a bit more of Felixstowe-Nuneaton.

 

[HSTEd]

But surely that would apply equally to all proposed electeification projects?

Yes, but no other projects that I am aware of were considered to have infinite BCRs.
It is highly doubtful that the MML still does as a result of the explosion in project costs.

 

[Senex]

Yes, but no other projects that I am aware of were considered to have infinite BCRs.
It is highly doubtful that the MML still does as a result of the explosion in project costs.

Perhaps not, but surely in relative terms it should still look better than pretty well all the other projects.

But as LNW-GW Joint has said, it really would be daft to leave it as just another long spur out of London and not to tie it in at the northern end for going on to South Kirkby Jn / Doncaster.