MML Electrification: progress updates

[mr_jrt]

When (if?) the MML is electrified and post-HS2, would the superior acceleration permit the reinstatement of fast line stops at St Albans, Luton, and Bedford to solve these problems?

 

[Class 170101]

Its always a problem speeding up end to end journeys and the loss of focus on intermediate ones. West Coast, East Coast, MML and shortly on GEML with Norwich in 90.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Of course, at one time Intercity trains stopped at St Albans City, and included other destinations such as Leeds, Manchester and Glasgow, as well as Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham!

I don't think this is entirely accurate. IIRC, when the branding "InterCity" (in its various forms) came in c 1966 or so, I don't think St Albans was on the network. It was served by 2 TPH St Pancras DMU service (+ extras in the peaks).

Somewhere around 1970 or 71, LM added St Albans as a stop to most of its semi-fast St Pancras - Nottm/Derby trains - a few of the latter continued to Manchester for awhile into the mid 70s or so.

But I don't think these trains stopped at St Albans in peak flow times.

(Reading the comments on this thread today about how intermediate stops on the MML make services so 'appallingly slow', I wonder how anyone survived a Cl 45 + 8 Mk 1s from say, Mkt Harboro to St Pancras - but survive they did, or at least some did )

I think this arrangement lasted until the BedPan electrification. Immediately or soon after, stops on InterCity services were drastically reduced at St Albans to one each way per day. This anomaly lasted into the very early 90s, IIRC.

It is possible the odd semi-fast continued to Leeds in those years, I can't be certain - though I'd like to see proof. But I'd bet £100 none went on to Glasgow. The Thames-Clyde stopped at Luton in the up for many yeas (not sure about the down) but not at St Albans.

My impression is that in Midland days (ie before anyone had coined the term InterCity) and maybe into the LMS, St Albans was more or less the limit for commuter travel, and it may have been more of a main line stop back then, But with the growth of Luton between the wars, it gradually took over from St Albans as a (far) more important centre.

 

[richieb1971]

Slow lines between Bedfore & Kettering are proposed to be 90mph railway (I think)

I believe 90mph would be more than adequate. At the moment there are places with extreme speed restrictions. The up slow at Oakley is restricted to 20mph due to potential land slides. Not sure if an incident happened there at some point. The down slow is 60mph or thereabouts. The Oakley station alignment is still in place on the slows and apparently this is going to be aligned with the fast tracks so perhaps that speed restriction will be lifted.

As I stated before, I heard rumours EMT will not stop south of Kettering so the potential for getting from Leicester to STP within an hour is totally plausible.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe 90mph would be more than adequate. At the moment there are places with extreme speed restrictions. The up slow at Oakley is restricted to 20mph due to potential land slides. Not sure if an incident happened there at some point. The down slow is 60mph or thereabouts. The Oakley station alignment is still in place on the slows and apparently this is going to be aligned with the fast tracks so perhaps that speed restriction will be lifted.

If you redouble the slow lines and make them 90 mph, it will only be a matter of time before campaigns start to:

a) re-open Irchester station - though probably with some kind of Rushden Parkway status - much better for that area than driving into Wellingborough, I'd have thought

and b) a bit later some kind of "North Bedford" Parkway-possibly around the site of Oakley.

 

[70014IronDuke]

When (if?) the MML is electrified and post-HS2, would the superior acceleration permit the reinstatement of fast line stops at St Albans, Luton, and Bedford to solve these problems?

With the creation of LAP, St Albans is a goner in terms of InterCity trains. LAP/LUTON and Bedford will always need a decentish service to north of Leicester, I'd say.

 

[richieb1971]

If you redouble the slow lines and make them 90 mph, it will only be a matter of time before campaigns start to:

a) re-open Irchester station - though probably with some kind of Rushden Parkway status - much better for that area than driving into Wellingborough, I'd have thought

and b) a bit later some kind of "North Bedford" Parkway-possibly around the site of Oakley.

From my experience with campaigning it seems to come from small groups trying to convince the masses that live there that they need it. Only to find out they don't want it at all. After doing 6 years of filming around the area, I got the feeling the areas north of Bedford are very middle class and they love their 4x4's.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In my experience it's usually quicker to do St Albans to anywhere on the MML from Leicester northwards by going via St Pancras.

Actually that's not true. It's quicker on the M1.

Agreed (often do oddly) - when my son was studying in Nottingham - door to door SAC - Nottingham was a comfortable 2 hours ,if not less. Train often longer due to having to take the local train before you really need (FCC / GTR reliability) , hanging around at LAP - then more or less all stations. Despite the clear affluence of St Albans , I struggle to find anyone much who uses the MML other than going to and from the London area.

More use would be made of Watford if there was a better northbound train service - another story though. Fine for the West Midlands - forget the rest of the UK ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

With the creation of LAP, St Albans is a goner in terms of InterCity trains. LAP/LUTON and Bedford will always need a decentish service to north of Leicester, I'd say.

Never seems to be a lot people making the journey though ...?

 

[Bald Rick]

When (if?) the MML is electrified and post-HS2, would the superior acceleration permit the reinstatement of fast line stops at St Albans, Luton, and Bedford to solve these problems?

They could stop now, indeed it would make the timetable work better. I'm not sure the good folk of Leicester and north thereof would like the 15minute extra journey time though. EMT sure wouldn't, they'd lose a ton of revenue.

 

[mr_jrt]

They could stop now, indeed it would make the timetable work better. I'm not sure the good folk of Leicester and north thereof would like the 15minute extra journey time though. EMT sure wouldn't, they'd lose a ton of revenue.

Is that 15 minutes today, or 15 minutes with WCML-alike EMUs?

I guess the HS2 factor doesn't really come into play unless Leicester to Toton gets some mighty upgrades (which it might!) - it's apparently about half an hour between Leicester and Nottingham currently - which I suspect would more than wipe out any time savings of heading north to then take HS2 to London (though I've not been able to find any indicative timings for Toton to Euston).

 

[A0]

If you redouble the slow lines and make them 90 mph, it will only be a matter of time before campaigns start to:

a) re-open Irchester station - though probably with some kind of Rushden Parkway status - much better for that area than driving into Wellingborough, I'd have thought .

Given the sizeable development which is about to take place on the east side of the MML together with the extension of Wellingborough station, I don't think that will be needed.

and b) a bit later some kind of "North Bedford" Parkway-possibly around the site of Oakley.

I'd have said Sharnbrook would make more sense given the growth of the villages around there.

 

[edwin_m]

Is that 15 minutes today, or 15 minutes with WCML-alike EMUs?

I guess the HS2 factor doesn't really come into play unless Leicester to Toton gets some mighty upgrades (which it might!) - it's apparently about half an hour between Leicester and Nottingham currently - which I suspect would more than wipe out any time savings of heading north to then take HS2 to London (though I've not been able to find any indicative timings for Toton to Euston).

Toton to Euston is supposed to be about 53min IIRC, so definitely not a viable route for London-Leicester and rather marginal from the centres of Derby and Nottingham. Running one of the slower MML trains to Toton to connect or even transfer onto HS2 for further north is probably worth looking at.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that 15 minutes today, or 15 minutes with WCML-alike EMUs?

Both.

The braking rate is the same as today, and acceleration won't make that much difference. And then there's the 2 minute dwell times.

 

[John Webb]

I don't think this is entirely accurate. IIRC, when the branding "InterCity" (in its various forms) came in c 1966 or so, I don't think St Albans was on the network. It was served by 2 TPH St Pancras DMU service (+ extras in the peaks).

Somewhere around 1970 or 71, LM added St Albans as a stop to most of its semi-fast St Pancras - Nottm/Derby trains - a few of the latter continued to Manchester for awhile into the mid 70s or so.

But I don't think these trains stopped at St Albans in peak flow times.

(Reading the comments on this thread today about how intermediate stops on the MML make services so 'appallingly slow', I wonder how anyone survived a Cl 45 + 8 Mk 1s from say, Mkt Harboro to St Pancras - but survive they did, or at least some did )

I think this arrangement lasted until the BedPan electrification. Immediately or soon after, stops on InterCity services were drastically reduced at St Albans to one each way per day. This anomaly lasted into the very early 90s, IIRC.

It is possible the odd semi-fast continued to Leeds in those years, I can't be certain - though I'd like to see proof. But I'd bet £100 none went on to Glasgow. The Thames-Clyde stopped at Luton in the up for many yeas (not sure about the down) but not at St Albans.

My impression is that in Midland days (ie before anyone had coined the term InterCity) and maybe into the LMS, St Albans was more or less the limit for commuter travel, and it may have been more of a main line stop back then, But with the growth of Luton between the wars, it gradually took over from St Albans as a (far) more important centre.

I was looking at the 1974-5 WTT, on which we have based several of our simulator scenarios, and accept that the Glasgow train did run non-stop through St Albans, so a slip on my part there! But it could be caught with only one change. I assume today the fastest way is into London and out again from Euston.
Re local services, I don't have the WTT to hand, but the non-peak services appear to have terminated at Luton for the 'all stations' and Bedford for the 'semi-fasts' which ran non-stop to/from St Pancras to Elstree/Borehamwood - much appreciated when I was working at Borehamwood and commuted from SE London in the early 1970s.

 

[BelleIsle]

b) a bit later some kind of "North Bedford" Parkway-possibly around the site of Oakley.

Was there not a plan for a privately financed station in this area in connection with one of John Prescott's proposed housing developments? I seem to remember it was pre-electricfication and was sold by the develoeprs to the railway as a way to ease to problems of platform capacity at Bedford.

 

[70014IronDuke]

From my experience with campaigning it seems to come from small groups trying to convince the masses that live there that they need it. Only to find out they don't want it at all. After doing 6 years of filming around the area, I got the feeling the areas north of Bedford are very middle class and they love their 4x4's.

I fully believe you - but do they like driving their 4x4s to London? Or even into Bedford (although, admittedly, the station is on the poshish north-west side of town)?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Never seems to be a lot people making the journey though ...?

Really? From none of those stations? Well, OK, I withdraw my statement then. Maybe it should go back to a one-train, semi-fast, every two hours as it was up to 1962!

But if so, there is even less of a case for stopping at St Albans, I think you'd agree?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Really? From none of those stations? Well, OK, I withdraw my statement then. Maybe it should go back to a one-train, semi-fast, every two hours as it was up to 1962!

But if so, there is even less of a case for stopping at St Albans, I think you'd agree?

There is no case for stopping fast EMT services at St Albans , never said there was.

Observation of northbound joiners at LAP , LTN and Bedford onto EMT services does not give the impression of a huge gatherings on platforms of an appreciative public.

Obviously some travelers do - and an examination of ticket flow data would show this up (I no longer have this ability) , boarders at LAP seem to be the highest , but not much more than say 20 pax in my observation.

With the exception of the 2 tph flow into Leicester from Market Harborough (which seems to be really important) . maybe an examination of the actual passenger flows (which I strongly suspect are geared to London) would be ideal , as opposed to non quantitative "ideas" on connectivity.

The M1 , the car and Megabus etc might well have the market sorted .....

 

[70014IronDuke]

I was looking at the 1974-5 WTT, on which we have based several of our simulator scenarios, and accept that the Glasgow train did run non-stop through St Albans, so a slip on my part there! But it could be caught with only one change.

So, are you still saying there were direct trains from St Albans to Sheffield and Leeds in 74-75? Because that is not how I remember it.

Of course, there might have been the odd one in the early morning or evening or maybe something on weekends, but as I recall, for the standard daytime service, only the semi-fasts stopped at St Albans - and even then, not in the peaks. For almost all services to Sheffield (and alternate hours Derby/Nottingham) it would be a X-platform change at Leicester, and for Leeds it would be Leicester or Derby.

Some morning down Sheffield expresses stopped at Luton, and evening up ditto (including the TC).

I assume today the fastest way is into London and out again from Euston.

Has to be. It would also be faster via KX and Waverley, I'd imagine.

Re local services, I don't have the WTT to hand, but the non-peak services appear to have terminated at Luton for the 'all stations' and Bedford for the 'semi-fasts' which ran non-stop to/from St Pancras to Elstree/Borehamwood - much appreciated when I was working at Borehamwood and commuted from SE London in the early 1970s.

Yes. That is how I remember it. The Luton all stations took nearly an hour? and the Bedfords 83 mins, IIRC.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Was there not a plan for a privately financed station in this area in connection with one of John Prescott's proposed housing developments? I seem to remember it was pre-electricfication and was sold by the develoeprs to the railway as a way to ease to problems of platform capacity at Bedford.

There was an idea mooted - I don't know if it was seriously pursued or not. Didn't the first EMUs have "Milton Earnest" on the station roller blind?

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is no case for stopping fast EMT services at St Albans , never said there was.

I agree. This was in response to the o/p for this sub-thread.

Observation of northbound joiners at LAP , LTN and Bedford onto EMT services does not give the impression of a huge gatherings on platforms of an appreciative public.

Shame. I did have a friend landing at Luton not long ago and heading for Leicester. I suggested the train, but he said not worth the bother. Only one train per hour, and with a family he'd rather get a taxi, he said. Mind you, he also lives 5 miles to the south. So, for four people - what with bus to LAP, train to Leicester and then taxi back south - the taxi was a no brainer really - all 65 miles of it.

Of course, northbound from Luton is pretty awful these days, only going to Corby most of the day.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I agree. This was in response to the o/p for this sub-thread.



Shame. I did have a friend landing at Luton not long ago and heading for Leicester. I suggested the train, but he said not worth the bother. Only one train per hour, and with a family he'd rather get a taxi, he said. Mind you, he also lives 5 miles to the south. So, for four people - what with bus to LAP, train to Leicester and then taxi back south - the taxi was a no brainer really - all 65 miles of it.

Of course, northbound from Luton is pretty awful these days, only going to Corby most of the day.

Much my experience of someone travelling into Luton Airport (incidentally a c==p airport at the moment with rebuilding and an outrageous £3 drop off charge for road users) , who laughed at the idea of using the hourly train and hired a car instead for less money.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was an idea mooted - I don't know if it was seriously pursued or not. Didn't the first EMUs have "Milton Earnest" on the station roller blind?

They did , as well as "Corby" and "Dunstable" ....

Some of my fellow trainees in 1979 - 1980 were pulled onto a special project for a cheap wiring scheme to Corby for "Wonderland" - a theme park for the closed section of the steelworks.

They reckoned they could do it with the existing 317 fleet ......with fast St Pancras -Corby trains at weekends.

Like me , they are all retired now ....

 

[TheBigD]

They did , as well as "Corby" and "Dunstable" ....

Some of my fellow trainees in 1979 - 1980 were pulled onto a special project for a cheap wiring scheme to Corby for "Wonderland" - a theme park for the closed section of the steelworks.

They reckoned they could do it with the existing 317 fleet ......with fast St Pancras -Corby trains at weekends.

Like me , they are all retired now ....

I remember the "Wonderland" signs next to the A43 as a kid back in the early 1980's, the general joke then doing the rounds was I "wonder" when they'll start it!!! The area is now Priors Hall Park, a new housing estate which is gradually taking shape...

 

[mr_jrt]

...of course, you can't always base demand for a non-existing future service on current passenger usage. You're not going to have too many heading north from the various major MML stations south of Bedford given the current service provision, are you?

 

[A0]

Of course, northbound from Luton is pretty awful these days, only going to Corby most of the day.

Not quite true that - Luton and Luton Airport Parkway between them have a half-hourly EMT service.

One is the Corby, the other being the Nottingham.

The southern section of the MML has tended to lose the Sheffield / Derby services primarily because both MML and EMT have wanted to improve journey times from Derby / Sheffield which they have basically achieved by running fast from Leicester.

The Corby's are unfortunate in that they replaced one of the Nottingham stoppers which damaged northbound journey opportunities from Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. This could be remedied by adding Wellingborough and / or Kettering stops onto one of the fasts, with minimal impact.

Alternatively there must be something which could be done about the St P departures which are currently skewed towards the first 30 mins of an hour with nothing leaving between xx:29 and xx:58 except in peak hours.

 

[LLivery]

Not quite true that - Luton and Luton Airport Parkway between them have a half-hourly EMT service.

One is the Corby, the other being the Nottingham.

The southern section of the MML has tended to lose the Sheffield / Derby services primarily because both MML and EMT have wanted to improve journey times from Derby / Sheffield which they have basically achieved by running fast from Leicester.

The Corby's are unfortunate in that they replaced one of the Nottingham stoppers which damaged northbound journey opportunities from Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. This could be remedied by adding Wellingborough and / or Kettering stops onto one of the fasts, with minimal impact.

Alternatively there must be something which could be done about the St P departures which are currently skewed towards the first 30 mins of an hour with nothing leaving between xx:29 and xx:58 except in peak hours.

It was the Derby stopper (xx00 from STP) which was replaced, theres only ever been 1 Notttingham stopper and 1 fast as it is now. Which makes it worse as many people from Northants travel to Derby.

 

[LLivery]

Given the sizeable development which is about to take place on the east side of the MML together with the extension of Wellingborough station, I don't think that will be needed.



I'd have said Sharnbrook would make more sense given the growth of the villages around there.

A lot of people seem to not know or be forgetting this. 3,600 homes and commercial space is being built right next to Welly station. Prep work is underway and the new road bridge is being put into place this month I believe. 3,600 homes can mean 15,000+ more people living in Wellingborough and thats not even mention all the other apartments built there recently and the Wellingborough North development with outline planning permission for 3,000+ homes. Its very possible 25-30,000 new people will live in Welly in 10 years. Wellingborough is the cheapest place one within hour train ride from London and people are noticing, it will need more than just 2tph to London and 1tph to Leicester in the future. I do believe Corby should be part of Thameslink, while the Nottingham service must continue and EWR gives new possibilities. In peaks additional services will also be required.

 

[LLivery]

I doubt Sharnbrook would provide enough passengers even with the growth. A Oakley and Clapham Parkway, serving those villages as well as Milton Earnest, Stevington and Bromham with a good service could have higher than Harlington numbers.