MML Electrification: progress updates

[Flying Phil]

Quite correct Snowball - although I suspect the completion may have been delayed due to floods in the area.

 

[92002]

The details of curvature that I have date from the time of the APT tests on the line, but I don't think there have been any re-alignments in this area since and the values tie in with what was still marked out on the track in the 1990s.

The long right-hand curve leading to the station starts at 43 chains radius with 4½" cant, eases to 59 chains radius with 3½" cant, and then sharpens into the station to 29 chains radius with 5" cant. (The precise figures for this section of the curve that I later read off the track were 28¼ chains radius with 5" cant, T = 240'.) This leads straight into a left-hand curve starting at 35 chains radius with 4½" cant (via the appropriate transitions, of course) and then easing to 98 chains radius with 1½" cant and then to 94 chains radius with 2¼" cant. The curve on the overbridge where the Midland line post-1884 crosses the former LNW line is of 39 chains radius with 6" cant, with straight track on either side of the curve. If I remember correctly, the permissible speed on the curve south of the station was actually a little reduced by either Railtrack or Network Rail from the figure that applied in BR days.

Maybe we should liberate APT from Crewe.

The Pendolino production line is currently open in Italy so a few new Pendolino could solve the problem.

Don't think these new Japan trains have a similar tilting version.

 

[asylumxl]

Maybe we should liberate APT from Crewe.

The Pendolino production line is currently open in Italy so a few new Pendolino could solve the problem.

Don't think these new Japan trains have a similar tilting version.

Hitachi produced the Taiwanese TEMU1000, a tilting train based on the A-Train platform, the exact same platform used for their offerings so far in the UK. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Pendolino production line is currently open in Italy so a few new Pendolino could solve the problem.

The are building to a different design now as well... with - shock, horror - larger windows!

 

[AM9]

Hitachi produced the Taiwanese TEMU1000, a tilting train based on the A-Train platform, the exact same platform used for their offerings so far in the UK. It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

But, any tilting train for the UK would need a cross-section profile that permitted use within the NR structure gauge.

 

[asylumxl]

But, any tilting train for the UK would need a cross-section profile that permitted use within the NR structure gauge.

The point I was making was that Hitachi does in fact have A-train based tilting trains, meaning it's within the realms of possibility for them to produce tilting trains for the UK. I never said that they'd apply the technology to an existing design such as the SETs or AT300s.

It's also worth adding that they also acquired Ansaldo Breda who have their own tilting equipment.

 

[Sean Emmett]

The details of curvature that I have date from the time of the APT tests on the line, but I don't think there have been any re-alignments in this area since and the values tie in with what was still marked out on the track in the 1990s.

The long right-hand curve leading to the station starts at 43 chains radius with 4½" cant, eases to 59 chains radius with 3½" cant, and then sharpens into the station to 29 chains radius with 5" cant. (The precise figures for this section of the curve that I later read off the track were 28¼ chains radius with 5" cant, T = 240'.) This leads straight into a left-hand curve starting at 35 chains radius with 4½" cant (via the appropriate transitions, of course) and then easing to 98 chains radius with 1½" cant and then to 94 chains radius with 2¼" cant. The curve on the overbridge where the Midland line post-1884 crosses the former LNW line is of 39 chains radius with 6" cant, with straight track on either side of the curve. If I remember correctly, the permissible speed on the curve south of the station was actually a little reduced by either Railtrack or Network Rail from the figure that applied in BR days.

IIRC the limit thro Market Harborough in the 'Peak' era was 50 mph, which was subsequently raised to 60 mph.

 

[Domh245]

It's also worth adding that they also acquired Ansaldo Breda who have their own tilting equipment.

Was that the "tilting because we didn't build it properly" one?

 

[asylumxl]

Was that the "tilting because we didn't build it properly" one?

Ansaldo Breda never built anything properly [emoji38] .

One would hope Hitachi would use their own tilting equipment, were they to build any tilting trains for the UK.

 

[AM9]

The point I was making was that Hitachi does in fact have A-train based tilting trains, meaning it's within the realms of possibility for them to produce tilting trains for the UK. I never said that they'd apply the technology to an existing design such as the SETs or AT300s.

It's also worth adding that they also acquired Ansaldo Breda who have their own tilting equipment.

Your sarcasm is purile and misplaced.

The point of my post that you seemed to have missed is that just because Hitachi has managed to design an A-train based tilting design for Taiwan, it would not necessarily be suitable for the UK. The sole tilting train that is permitted to run in the UK is the class 390 Pendolino, a design that has come in for much criticism from posters here and elsewhere on account of the restricted shoulder-height of coaches. That criticism is also true of the MKIV LHCS used on the ECML.
The family of rolling stock used for any UK offering is irrelevant as is the type of or manufacturer of the tilting mechanism. The kinematic envelope of tilting within the UK structure gauge determines the cross section of the train.

 

[Jordeh]

The sole tilting train that is permitted to run in the UK is the class 390 Pendolino, a design that has come in for much criticism from posters here and elsewhere on account of the restricted shoulder-height of coaches. That criticism is also true of the MKIV LHCS used on the ECML.

Class 221...

 

[AM9]

Class 221...

Yes of course, although that is diesel rather than electric as being discussed.

 

[Senex]

IIRC the limit thro Market Harborough in the 'Peak' era was 50 mph, which was subsequently raised to 60 mph.

Correct - the signs were immediately south of the station, at the start of the sharpest portion of the curve. The easier portion of the curve to the south was line-speed. The 50 went up to 60 as part of the mid-80s revision of speeds which also saw the Wigston curve go up from 70 to 80.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't know if it is simply the interior of the Pendolino that makes it feel cramped, but the Mark 4 feels significantly more open inside.

Although as I understand it the Mk 4 is only capable of 221 levels of tilt, rather than 390 levels.

 

[asylumxl]

Your sarcasm is purile and misplaced.

The point of my post that you seemed to have missed is that just because Hitachi has managed to design an A-train based tilting design for Taiwan, it would not necessarily be suitable for the UK. The sole tilting train that is permitted to run in the UK is the class 390 Pendolino, a design that has come in for much criticism from posters here and elsewhere on account of the restricted shoulder-height of coaches. That criticism is also true of the MKIV LHCS used on the ECML.
The family of rolling stock used for any UK offering is irrelevant as is the type of or manufacturer of the tilting mechanism. The kinematic envelope of tilting within the UK structure gauge determines the cross section of the train.

I missed no point. All I said was it's within the realm of possibility for them to produce a tilting train, but evidently the Mechanical and Electrical Engineers at Hitachi are nowhere near competent enough to design such a train and you surely know better.

Could you please define this UK structure gauge? As far as I'm aware, even for newly built structures, there are several variants rather than one singular as you've said. That's also a gross over-simplification of how gauging is achieved.

But I digress, this is a thread on MML electrification and this is already quite off topic.

 

[richieb1971]

If you look around Bedford a lot of the bends are there to join victorian stations together which no longer exist. Wellingborough seems badly designed as well with its left, rights all over the place.

Has there never been a survey to see if these alignments could be improved?

After all, if you take the bends out, you can build faster trains.

 

[InTheEastMids]

If you look around Bedford a lot of the bends are there to join victorian stations together which no longer exist. Wellingborough seems badly designed as well with its left, rights all over the place.

Has there never been a survey to see if these alignments could be improved?

After all, if you take the bends out, you can build faster trains.

The linespeed at Wellingborough was improved quite recently, according to https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...passengers-a-lift-and-speed-up-journey-times/

I would therefore guess that they have reached the limit of the current alignment. There is also new development happening to the East of the railway. This means that the straight alignment I drew from the A45 to Finedon Road, with crayons stolen from my daughter, will never happen. A shame for the traveller because it's the first place on the way from London where the MML feels noticeably slow.

 

[richieb1971]

Not only Wellingborough. Coming into Bedford from the south, if there was a fast diversion line south of Bedford to the North of Bedford it would save 5 minutes.

The point is, even though the trains are not currently restricted except in areas like MH and Wellingborough, when the trains get faster, they will be.

 

[Senex]

If you look around Bedford a lot of the bends are there to join victorian stations together which no longer exist. Wellingborough seems badly designed as well with its left, rights all over the place.

Has there never been a survey to see if these alignments could be improved?

After all, if you take the bends out, you can build faster trains.

The original route had a straight alignment through Bedford station heading towards Hitchin. When the London & Bedford line was built, it joined the original line by a sharp curve at the south end of Bedford platforms. On order to get rid of the restriction this caused, the Midland built the Bedford Curve which became the fast lines. There is no problem with its design: it allows 125 on the up line. But unfortunately the provision of a down fast platform was done in typical British fashion on the cheap, so its presence on the down fast itself and right on the curve means only 110 in that direction.

Wellingborough is a case of buttering up the locals to get their support for the line. The route as originally planned would have taken the obvious straight alignment, avoiding the curve westwards and then back again we now have to go through the station. George Hudson told the locals they could have their station a quarter of a mile closer to the town if they would support the Bill for the railway, which gave the alignment we now have. That line (the 1847 Act) was never built, but when the plan was resurrected for the 1853 Act the kink was kept. There was some casual talk some years ago of getting rid of it, but nothing happened.

The curves through Kettering result from a combination of bits of two planned routes, those of the Leicester & Bedford and of the South Midland schemes.

At Market Harborough money was saved by using a short section of the London & North Western's Rugby & Peterbrough line, which already existed when the Leicester & Hitchin Bill went to parliament. This brought two low-speed junctions for the Midland. And the alignment was made worse, even though capacity was greatly increased, when the joint station and separate MR and LNW alignments were created in the 1880s.

Finally at Wigston, where the Leicester & Hitchin curved into the original Midland Counties line. There was an original plan for a gentler curve into the junction at a location north of the big cutting, round about Aylestone, but this too was dropped to save money, giving the sharp curve that many of us will remember. This was eased out in the 1970s in the realignment that gave the present 34-chain curve with its original 70 (now 80) limit in place of the previous 50 (and even earlier 40).

(And just to complete the picture, the way the widening was finally done between Knighton Tunnel and Leicester ensured the poor alignment into Leicester station rather than the direct route that had been built nearly 60 years earlier.)

 

[AM9]

I missed no point. All I said was it's within the realm of possibility for them to produce a tilting train, but evidently the Mechanical and Electrical Engineers at Hitachi are nowhere near competent enough to design such a train and you surely know better.

I didn't mention anything about Hitachi's competence in any aspect of train design. Try reading what I posted instead of what you think I did. All I said was: "any tilting train for the UK would need a cross-section profile that permitted use within the NR structure gauge" and later in post #550, explained that the ruling factor was the need to constrain the cross-section at shoulder height owing to the limited structure gauge in the UK. There's no point in imagining what I said, - why not just read what was actually posted to avoid making these wrong assumptions.

Could you please define this UK structure gauge? As far as I'm aware, even for newly built structures, there are several variants rather than one singular as you've said. That's also a gross over-simplification of how gauging is achieved.

With the exception of HS1, the structure gauge in the UK is very limiting on rolling stock design, although there are small variations between routes. Even with the possible upgrade to W12 in response to the proposed SRFI and the impact of Chunnel freight, the MML would still limit any tilting passenger rolling stock to the notional C4 that class 390s adhere to, as the freight gauges are all about width at roof level on an 8ft 6in container.

But I digress, this is a thread on MML electrification and this is already quite off topic.

Actually, this is very much relevant to the MML. There has been much discussion regarding the speed restrictions of curves on the line north of Bedford limiting the opportunities for service improvements. Tilting trains could well be part of the solution especially when the realignment costs become politically unacceptable.

 

[38Cto15E]

My opinion FWIW the straightening at Market Harborough and maybe Wellingborough would only save about 30 seconds each, yet the door opening and closing procedures at the enroute stations, with the train manager having to receive two clear safety signals from platform staff takes around 30 seconds.
This may vary with different types of stock, I noticed last week when on a London Midland 350 how slow the door opening and closing procedure at stations can be.

 

[LowLevel]

The reason the doors take so long to release is an issue with the SDO system on the 222s. A delay was implemented in order to allow it to operate reliably, as there were problems with the train not arming all of the cars it should.

All trains of 7 cars or less operated by EMT at EMT stations that have power doors are guard self dispatch also with the exception of St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

Dwell times are less important on these kind of services.

For what it's worth London Midland 350s self dispatch as well except at Virgin and Network Rail operated stations (plus by exception, I think, Nuneaton for some reason!).

 

[asylumxl]

I didn't mention anything about Hitachi's competence in any aspect of train design. Try reading blaa blaa

Okay buddy. I concede to your superior knowledge on everything railway related. Whatever makes you happy .

One thing I can agree on is that tilting trains will be needed eventually.

 

[richieb1971]

If we get tilted trains we will never surpass the 140mph mark on top speed.

I suppose once HS2 comes about all these old lines will not need the kind of speed that you would need without it.

 

[asylumxl]

If we get tilted trains we will never surpass the 140mph mark on top speed.

I suppose once HS2 comes about all these old lines will not need the kind of speed that you would need without it.

I'm not sure if the MML would ever have 140mph, but tilting trains would help increase the speeds on various tight curves on the route.

As for HS2 coming about, I'll believe it when I see it [emoji38] .

 

[Flying Phil]

With this discussion of fast MML trains.... how has the time for the fastest scheduled train Leicester to St Pancras changed over the past 60 years ie from Steam to Peak? to HST? What is the hoped for Electrified Time?

 

[eastwestdivide]

With this discussion of fast MML trains.... how has the time for the fastest scheduled train Leicester to St Pancras changed over the past 60 years ie from Steam to Peak? to HST? What is the hoped for Electrified Time?

Very roughly, Peak in 1980-odd 1h25-1h30, HST 1h15 when introduced, 222 now very close to 1h on a good day. Can't speak for steam days.

 

[Grumpy]

Very roughly, Peak in 1980-odd 1h25-1h30, HST 1h15 when introduced, 222 now very close to 1h on a good day. Can't speak for steam days.

August 1975 58 minutes with APT-E

 

[Flying Phil]

August 1975 58 minutes with APT-E

Wow - but I thought the APT-E was Electric? Were there two APTs? The other one a gas turbine or diesel??

Well I've just googled this and I was part correct!
The original APT-E was the gas-turbine powered prototype but the later three APT-Ps were electric pre production versions.

 

[asylumxl]

Wow - but I thought the APT-E was Electric? Were there two APTs? The other one a gas turbine or diesel??

Well I've just googled this and I was part correct!
The original APT-E was the gas-turbine powered prototype but the later three APT-Ps were electric pre production versions.

The E was for Experimental and the P for Prototype. APT-S was intended for squadron service.

August 1975 58 minutes with APT-E

Can't really compare an experimental test run with a regular passenger service though [emoji38].