MML Electrification: progress updates

[RichmondCommu]

It's only the passenger accommodation that needs upgrading before 2020. The power cars could be swapped whenever others become available, it would just take ROSCO and TOC to reach an agreement. AFAIK EMT haven't expressed a desire to switch to MTU engines, but a successor franchise might.

I've always found this surprising given that Leeds Neville Hill already services / maintains HST power cars with MTU engines.

 

[Flying Phil]

The plans for the rebuilding of Market Harborough Station and the straightening of the line were on public display at the weekend. The Harborough Mail has it as the lead story this week. "Work is due to begin in Summer 2017 and finish in Spring 2019".

 

[HowardGWR]

The plans for the rebuilding of Market Harborough Station and the straightening of the line were on public display at the weekend. The Harborough Mail has it as the lead story this week. "Work is due to begin in Summer 2017 and finish in Spring 2019".

Perhaps worth reminding ourselves that these projects are not electrification projects. It's similar in that way to the GW projects. They are piggy backing on electrification to save the cost of doing the latter job twice (moving the masts, etc) if the work was carried out the other way around.

I should not have to add this rider, but I know the internet, so I will. In no way am I against the MML project: on the contrary.

 

[Flying Phil]

Good point well made Howard, indeed, the artists impression of the finished station does not even show Overhead Electrification at all.......

 

[QueensCurve]

Good point well made Howard, indeed, the artists impression of the finished station does not even show Overhead Electrification at all.......

The artist evidently knows something.

 

[Olaf]

I think you are going to be disappointed; anything other than HS2 (or even perhaps part of) and currently committed CP5 work is off the table as far as financing is concerned.

The situation is very fluid; due to events this summer, last week, and in the finance markets, plus the direction in which finance/expenditure policies will have to go, and the outcome of elections in Europe (in particular in Italy - perhaps, but more importantly in Austria), and the whether article 50 is actually triggered, there is no basis on which to commit to sound medium or long term spending.

Add to that the expectations that patronage will fall back sharply again and perhaps more importantly that growth in patronage is looking like it is going to slow down.

In short, previous promises were made in a different world; all has now changed and we are at the end of cheap debt.

 

[Flying Phil]

Do we have any further - hopefully firm information, about any progress on the MML electrification North of Kettering to Leicester and Sheffield? Or is it still a vague hope.

 

[mwmbwls]

Add to that the expectations that patronage will fall back sharply again and perhaps more importantly that growth in patronage is looking like it is going to slow down.

How credible are these expectations? Is either an actual fall or a failure to sustain current levels of growth liable to be uniform across the country? Is it intended to revive the old British Rail practice of pricing excess demand off the railway or have structural changes post privatisation frustrated that tactic? Is DfT's credibility in these matters not somewhat tattered after the fiasco of assuming a no growth strategy in the North of England when passenger numbers actually increased?

 

[snowball]

Do we have any further - hopefully firm information, about any progress on the MML electrification North of Kettering to Leicester and Sheffield? Or is it still a vague hope.

Since the Hendy report a year ago, the government is supposed to be committed to completing it by 2023. There are no intermediate commitments north of Kettering/Corby, such as dates for Derby or Nottingham. A local MP managed to get an adjournment debate in the House of Commons a couple of weeks ago (see pages 27-28 in this thread), but the minister, when repeatedly pressed to reaffirm the Hendy commitment, repeatedly avoided doing so. He merely talked in vague terms about continuing to progress the scheme.

 

[DarloRich]

I've always found this surprising given that Leeds Neville Hill already services / maintains HST power cars with MTU engines.

Day to day servicing at Neville Hill with heavy work done at Craigentinny

 

[InTheEastMids]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/m...age-hospital/story-29964551-detail/story.html

https://www.edwardgarnier.co.uk/sit...16-12/Dft re. Access to All project at MH.pdf

I think this is basically saying, "The rest of the scheme is going to be deferred and in turn this means the Access for All part of the project is going to be late too".

 

[GRALISTAIR]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/m...age-hospital/story-29964551-detail/story.html

https://www.edwardgarnier.co.uk/sit...16-12/Dft re. Access to All project at MH.pdf

I think this is basically saying, "The rest of the scheme is going to be deferred and in turn this means the Access for All part of the project is going to be late too".

I am really optimistic this will get done. I think it will be in the March 2017 HLOS statement for completion in the 2019-2024 timeframe. Market Harborough, Leicester and even Derby and Nottingham - would not bank on Sheffield in CP6 though now that we have bimodes.

 

[Mikey C]

There are too many marginal and key seats along the route for the electrification scheme to be abandoned

By the next election, the government will need some firm deadlines and commitments, and evidence of work actually being done...

 

[Benno]

I did, Ours as well as the XC ones will need power doors, pis in the coaches, accessible toilets and retention tanks.
DFT have asked us to make them last until 2024, read into that what you will.

Not yet they haven't. A refurbishment proposal has been put together and submitted but still needs DFT approval to spend the money. The proposal also includes internal CCTV and at seat USB sockets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've always found this surprising given that Leeds Neville Hill already services / maintains HST power cars with MTU engines.

No plan to re-engine to MTU. The potential refurbishment plan includes fitting the VP185 with electronic fuel injection. This will make them equally as fuel efficient as the MTUs without the headaches of cold starting, complete overhaul every two years etc.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably down to the incoming franchisee how they will address 2020 compliance in the period before electrification, however long that is. However, I doubt a ROSCO would invest in straight diesels at a sensible lease price unless the Government pushed electrification back by at least a decade.

 

[ashworth]

Probably down to the incoming franchisee how they will address 2020 compliance in the period before electrification, however long that is. However, I doubt a ROSCO would invest in straight diesels at a sensible lease price unless the Government pushed electrification back by at least a decade.

If bi mode trains were to be ordered how efficient would the diesel engines be running along the MML in comparison to the HST's and perhaps Meridians that they would be replacing. I think bi mode is a great idea for adding destinations that are short distances from electrified lines but Kettering to Sheffield is not really a short distance. What will their acceleration be like and can they run at more than 100 mph? The MML is quite winding and hilly and I'm sure that is why the Meridians were put on the longer Sheffield route because of their superior acceleration over the HST etc. Would the route actually be better off with a modern diesel fleet if the date of electrification continues to be delayed resulting in many years of bi mode operation.

 

[Senex]

If bi mode trains were to be ordered how efficient would the diesel engines be running along the MML in comparison to the HST's and perhaps Meridians that they would be replacing. I think bi mode is a great idea for adding destinations that are short distances from electrified lines but Kettering to Sheffield is not really a short distance. What will their acceleration be like and can they run at more than 100 mph? The MML is quite winding and hilly and I'm sure that is why the Meridians were put on the longer Sheffield route because of their superior acceleration over the HST etc. Would the route actually be better off with a modern diesel fleet if the date of electrification continues to be delayed resulting in many years of bi mode operation.

According to the Financial Times, Great Western is already warning that delays in electrification may lead to slower journey-times:

"Rail journeys between London and the west of England and south Wales risk becoming slower when new trains are introduced in 2019, unless Network Rail keeps to its timetable to electrify services, the railway company that runs the services has warned.

"Great Western Railway said electrification of the line was critical because the new trains, which can run on electric or diesel power, might be slower than existing ones when they run on diesel."


https://www.ft.com/content/3e1bbc74-bd52-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080


And that would be slower than HSTs. We know the Midland Line's Meridians can deliver faster journey-times than the line's HSTs, so if bi-modes would be slower on the GW, would they not also be likely to be slower on the Midland?

 

[43074]

And that would be slower than HSTs. We know the Midland Line's Meridians can deliver faster journey-times than the line's HSTs, so if bi-modes would be slower on the GW, would they not also be likely to be slower on the Midland?

No, because they would probably be specified for 125mph on diesel from the outset, rather than the IEPs which are basically an electric unit which happen to have a few diesel engines slung beneath them. That's if bi-modes are chosen - the OLE South of Bedford can't take electric trains running at 125mph, so it depends whether or not these are modified as well.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think they also need to understand that the energy costs of diesel operation are much higher than straight electric:

From Page 45 of this document:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...anding-the-rolling-stock-costs-of-uk-tocs.pdf

" When looking at the traction mix across an operator’s fleet and the costs incurred for diesel fuel and electricity for traction, the dominance of the higher costs for diesel is clearly evident, as shown in Figure 25. Whilst VWC’s fleet portfolio includes only around 15% diesel rolling stock, its cost for diesel fuel makes up around 40% of its total costs for traction (i.e. the sum of all costs diesel and electricity). "

And, elsewhere (Page 32) in the same document, in terms of mileage between (failure) incidents, a new emu is about twice as reliable as a new dmu.

So failure to proceed with electrification will, over the long term, lead to more expensive, less reliable services.

 

[Senex]

No, because they would probably be specified for 125mph on diesel from the outset, rather than the IEPs which are basically an electric unit which happen to have a few diesel engines slung beneath them. That's if bi-modes are chosen - the OLE South of Bedford can't take electric trains running at 125mph, so it depends whether or not these are modified as well.

Both the Meridians and the HSTs are 125-mph trains, but the Meridians are significantly faster because they have more installed power and better acceleration (which is crucial on a line like the Midland where there are constant changes of speed-limit). Are you suggesting that any Midland bi-modes would be specified to have quite a bit more diesel power installed than the IEPs will have?

 

[RichmondCommu]

No, because they would probably be specified for 125mph on diesel from the outset, rather than the IEPs which are basically an electric unit which happen to have a few diesel engines slung beneath them. That's if bi-modes are chosen - the OLE South of Bedford can't take electric trains running at 125mph, so it depends whether or not these are modified as well.

As I understand it the IEP's for GWR are capable of running at 125 mph (indeed that is what they were designed to do) but have had their speed / power reduced for maintenance reasons.

 

[Class 170101]

HSTs still only do 110mph on MML. I think only Meridians can do 125mph due to their superior braking characteristics compared to HSTs

 

[LowLevel]

HSTs still only do 110mph on MML. I think only Meridians can do 125mph due to their superior braking characteristics compared to HSTs

Everything can do 125.

 

[The Planner]

Really? HSTs should sit in the Cat C braking curve surely.

 

[Mordac]

Really? HSTs should sit in the Cat C braking curve surely.

The 125 sections are HST differentials (where of course the Meridians also fit)!

 

[Kneedown]

The 125 sections are HST differentials (where of course the Meridians also fit)!

Just to confirm, HST's are permitted up to 125mph on the MML.

 

[Verulamius]

Pages 161 and 162 give the enhanced speeds on the MML (or at least the plans as at June 2013) http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/delivery-plan/cp4/cp4-delivery-plan-2013-june-update.pdf

 

[Hairy Bear]

HSTs still only do 110mph on MML. I think only Meridians can do 125mph due to their superior braking characteristics compared to HSTs

You obviously have no idea about day to day running on the the MML , and also have no idea about HST's and have posted utter rubbish.
We take them up to 125 every day , and they are quite capable of braking from 125 for all stations and speed restrictions and do so every day.

 

[HSTEd]

How much 125mph running is there south of Bedford?
Ie. how much of the OLE has to be "rebuilt" - after having been heavily modified for Thameslink?

How different is the equipment to the ECML equipment that does 125mph all-day every-day?

 

[Chester1]

Which diesel locos can pull Mark 4 carriages or could be adapted for a low cost? Virgin East Coast is retaining some but at least 23 sets will be available for cascading. Corby services could use IC225s from 2019 with the rest being pulled by diesel locos until the wires reach further north. They are 24 to 27 years old and therefore could reasonably expected to last until 2033 and HS2 phase 2. EMT have 12 Mark 3 sets which would mean upto 11 extra sets would be available for new services. With such uncertainity it doesnt make sens to buy new stock and upgrading Mark 4s for use after 2019 would be better than upgrading Mark 3s that are much older.