MML Electrification: progress updates

[Tomnick]

I never thought that freight trains need to run to time. RTT shows that most freights are either early or late but never run close to time like a passenger working.

If they're late, they miss their path and sometimes end up being stuffed whilst they await the next suitable margin (note the reference to trains approaching Bedford in the run up to the morning peak, presumably on the Up rather than the Down as stated - if they miss their path, they can end up standing north of Bedford for two or three hours until it calms down again), they can miss their slot in a busy terminal or drivers can start going over their hours.

If they're early (so that they're in front of a train that they should have followed), there's a risk that they'll arrive at a key junction with no suitable margin to go anywhere, or end up delaying that (now) following train in a different way somehow. Early running is generally discouraged, unless there's a good reason (such as to avoid a conflict that might otherwise arise, say due to a late running train) or everyone's absolutely certain that the train can at least get to a location (without delaying anything else) where it can be regulated back to time if necessary. Some can still run quite early in their booked path though, if the previous train was quite some time earlier, and others can gain quite a bit of time on their schedule so end up running a bit early.

All good fun!

 

[The Planner]

I never thought that freight trains need to run to time. RTT shows that most freights are either early or late but never run close to time like a passenger working.

Im not sure whether to take that seriously. How are you meant to timetable if it doesnt matter? Let alone roster and diagram from the FOC side. As for the MML, quite sure we are banned from putting freight south of Bedford in the peaks.

 

[richieb1971]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/B22143/2015/08/27/advanced

Looks like the HOBC is north of Bedford tonight. Does that engineering train lay tracks?
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Im not sure whether to take that seriously. How are you meant to timetable if it doesnt matter? Let alone roster and diagram from the FOC side. As for the MML, quite sure we are banned from putting freight south of Bedford in the peaks.

Your probably right. Although the Luton Mountsorrel working leaves Luton about 1700. But usually its out of the way before the main event.

 

[ExRes]

A pause is, after all and against the best advice of the naysayers, just a pause

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592

 

[70014IronDuke]

.... As for the MML, quite sure we are banned from putting freight south of Bedford in the peaks.

I think that was true, even in steam days. IIRC, there was a ban on mineral trains leaving Brent 16.00 - 19.00 - or something like that.

Mind you, after about 1967, there was no mineral traffic to speak of.

 

[LTJ87]

The timetable has still slipped considerably though. Lines north of Kettering and Corby won't see electrification until 2019-2023.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transpennine-and-midland-mainline-electrification-works-to-resume

 

[howittpie]

Just been on East Midlands Today that electrification North of Kettering will not be completed until 2023. This already causing controversy.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just been on East Midlands Today that electrification North of Kettering will not be completed until 2023. This already causing controversy.

It can cause all the controversy it likes, there simply isn't the manpower, equipment and supply chain needed to electrify the route faster.

 

[DarloRich]

It can cause all the controversy it likes, there simply isn't the manpower, equipment and supply chain needed to electrify the route faster.

exactly: if they can rustle up trained manpower, suitable equipment and cash to do it quicker good luck to them. Until then..........

 

[Philip Phlopp]

exactly: if they can rustle up trained manpower, suitable equipment and cash to do it quicker good luck to them. Until then..........

Even if DfT and HM Treasury rustle up the money, we'll be waiting for Kirow and Movax to build piling equipment, SRS to build road-rail vehicles or heaven forbid, Windhoff to build another useless factory train.

When the equipment is delivered, it'll need to be tested, because as we know on the railway, anything new needs to be ever so slightly different, in the case of on track plant, capable of causing just enough trouble to totally ruin a possession and cause an overrun.

Then you've to train all the staff on using the new bit of equipment, which isn't a quick job if you're training from scratch. If you can get ex-Army (REME are the best) guys with a bit of discipline, you're in luck, if not, it can be a bit of a painful process to weed out the people who don't want to be 20ft up in a cherry picker basket on Xmas Day.

There's also the Overhead Line Electrification Competencies qualification scheme too, which NR has ignored for 5 years, and which they've suddenly decided will magically increase productivity and fix the GWML debacle (or more accurately, panicked job protection is being undertaken).

 

[kylemore]

Of course there is an answer to all of this - GET THE CHINESE IN!

Heir Apparent Gideon's not been over there smooching them for nothing.......

 

[Senex]

Of course there is an answer to all of this - GET THE CHINESE IN!

I was rather wondering that too. They've got plenty of experience of electrification. And if not the Chinese, then surely there are contractors in Europe who have the relevant skills and who might be interested in contracts here. Or would we have their skills and methodologies questioned on the "Not invented here" basis we know so well?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I was rather wondering that too. They've got plenty of experience of electrification. And if not the Chinese, then surely there are contractors in Europe who have the relevant skills and who might be interested in contracts here. Or would we have their skills and methodologies questioned on the "Not invented here" basis we know so well?

We're using European contractors.

Furrer+Frey doing design work is fairly well known (they're Swiss) and we have Inabensa (Spain) and SPL Powerlines (Austria) working alongside various other multinationals - Alstom, Babcock, Carillion, Costain, Ferrovial and the like who have operations across Europe.

 

[Robertj21a]

We're using European contractors.

Furrer+Frey doing design work is fairly well known (they're Swiss) and we have Inabensa (Spain) and SPL Powerlines (Austria) working alongside various other multinationals - Alstom, Babcock, Carillion, Costain, Ferrovial and the like who have operations across Europe.

Perhaps you need to increase the number of Polish workers if you want to get the job done quicker.......

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Good news about the un-pause and the electrification will go ahead with only a few years delay. The delay however does pose some interesting problems for the next EMT franchise though. The end of that franchise I'd due around the same time that the electrification is to be completed so the next franchise will have to make decisions on introducing new electric rolling stock that I presume will be used by the franchise after.

Also the HST's where due to be withdrawn by 2020 because they would not comply with DDA regulations, however that will not be possible because replacement electric stock won't be available until 2023 when electrification reaches Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield. I carn't see it being financially worth while modifying HST's to make them DDA compliant for such a short period of time without somewhere else to cascade them to, so that means either an exemption order for them is granted or some bi-mode AT-300's are ordered early on in the franchise so that the HST's can be withdrawn by the 2020 deadline.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Of course there is an answer to all of this - GET THE CHINESE IN!

Heir Apparent Gideon's not been over there smooching them for nothing.......

All very well, but they need to actually have people on the ground. Unless you're proposing we fly over and house a few hundred workers (who will likely speak no English) for a few years...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good news about the un-pause and the electrification will go ahead with only a few years delay. The delay however does pose some interesting problems for the next EMT franchise though. The end of that franchise I'd due around the same time that the electrification is to be completed so the next franchise will have to make decisions on introducing new electric rolling stock that I presume will be used by the franchise after.

Also the HST's where due to be withdrawn by 2020 because they would not comply with DDA regulations, however that will not be possible because replacement electric stock won't be available until 2023 when electrification reaches Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield. I carn't see it being financially worth while modifying HST's to make them DDA compliant for such a short period of time without somewhere else to cascade them to, so that means either an exemption order for them is granted or some bi-mode AT-300's are ordered early on in the franchise so that the HST's can be withdrawn by the 2020 deadline.

More class 800s?

 

[Class 170101]

Of course there is an answer to all of this - GET THE CHINESE IN!

Heir Apparent Gideon's not been over there smooching them for nothing.......

What's their safety training like? I would have my doubts as to whether its as comprehensive as in the UK (and more widely in the EU)

 

[3141]

More class 800s?

Maybe. But as they are 26 metres long there'd be the extra cost of infrastructure alterations to accommodate them.

Or would the completion of electrification to Kettering and Corby mean that new EMUs could be used. and the Meridians would be sufficient for all services going further north? It would mean timetable revisions, however.

What today's announcement does seem to lead to is a need for more diesels, because it will now be even longer before existing units are released and can be cascaded.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm guessing we'll see a derogation to allow the HSTs to continue in service for another few years. It can't be cost-effective to do a major rebuild for that sort of timescale, especially in parallel with similar sets for Scotrail which do have a longer assured life.

On another point, I suspect the pause hasn't actually delayed MML electrification at all. Bridge work has been continuing and I'm pretty sure all the bridges visible from the fast lines south of Kettering have been done - presumably not cost-effective to cancel it when the contracts have been signed and the possessions arranged. The revised timescales are likely to be solely down to any delays that had happened earlier and hadn't been admitted to, or diversion of money and resources to GW.

 

[richieb1971]

About 2 years ago a NR worker told me that Thameslink will run as far north as Kettering/Corby. That EMT will not stop south of Kettering.

This is supposed to be the plan post electrification.

When I see 4 tracks north of Sharnbrook I will start to believe.

 

[QueensCurve]

If they're late, they miss their path and sometimes end up being stuffed whilst they await the next suitable margin (note the reference to trains approaching Bedford in the run up to the morning peak, presumably on the Up rather than the Down as stated - if they miss their path, they can end up standing north of Bedford for two or three hours until it calms down again), they can miss their slot in a busy terminal or drivers can start going over their hours.

If they're early (so that they're in front of a train that they should have followed), there's a risk that they'll arrive at a key junction with no suitable margin to go anywhere, or end up delaying that (now) following train in a different way somehow. Early running is generally discouraged, unless there's a good reason (such as to avoid a conflict that might otherwise arise, say due to a late running train) or everyone's absolutely certain that the train can at least get to a location (without delaying anything else) where it can be regulated back to time if necessary. Some can still run quite early in their booked path though, if the previous train was quite some time earlier, and others can gain quite a bit of time on their schedule so end up running a bit early.

All good fun!

Running the railway smoothly presumably depends on trains presenting at junctions in the right order.

Given this, the potential for early running to cause reactionary delay must me as much as for late running.

I remain horrified by how many freight trains, at least according to RTT, are running seriously early.

Is any action planned to deal with this?

 

[swt_passenger]

About 2 years ago a NR worker told me that Thameslink will run as far north as Kettering/Corby. That EMT will not stop south of Kettering.

This is supposed to be the plan post electrification.

Yet you won't find it mentioned in any of NRs route plans; so how much creedence can it be given?

 

[asylumxl]

Yet you won't find it mentioned in any of NRs route plans; so how much creedence can it be given?

I wouldn't give it any. Extending Bedford services to Corby seems to be an idea a lot of forum members like to toss around, but in reality is not a good one for many reasons.

The only way it would be sensible is if TL take over the running of the Corby services (extra services not extensions) and the line is made 4 track all the way to Kettering.

On a side note, I imagine EMTs revenue might drop quite a bit if they do not serve Bedford/Luton/Parkway. They won't be entitled to any revenue for those stations through ORCATS anymore.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wouldn't give it any. Extending Bedford services to Corby seems to be an idea a lot of forum members like to toss around, but in reality is not a good one for many reasons.

I'd have thought the main one being the Thameslink fleet on order is not sized for random extensions...

 

[47802]

I'm guessing we'll see a derogation to allow the HSTs to continue in service for another few years. It can't be cost-effective to do a major rebuild for that sort of timescale, especially in parallel with similar sets for Scotrail which do have a longer assured life.

.

Well one wonders if that would happen given there will be likely alternate Meridian services available in most cases, although I'm not sure which ever TOC is operating this service then would want to risk potential agro and bad publicity from disabled groups.

Alternatively there is an option to retain slam doors and make them compliant although requires significant mods to the current central locking and an internal door handle, if that's significantly cheaper than fitting Power Doors that might be an option.

 

[ExRes]

Running the railway smoothly presumably depends on trains presenting at junctions in the right order.

Given this, the potential for early running to cause reactionary delay must me as much as for late running.

I remain horrified by how many freight trains, at least according to RTT, are running seriously early.

Is any action planned to deal with this?

Early running freights, seriously early or otherwise, aren't a problem in the slightest, as long as they are moved out of the way for faster trains then everyone is perfectly happy, should one be allowed to run early on line that cannot cater for passing then that is completely different and someone would be held to account for their decision

When I was driving 95/100/110mph mail trains on the East Coast the signaller always put us away to allow the GNER expresses to pass, it caused no problems and no action was required to deal with anything

 

[Senex]

Early running freights, seriously early or otherwise, aren't a problem in the slightest, as long as they are moved out of the way for faster trains then everyone is perfectly happy, should one be allowed to run early on line that cannot cater for passing then that is completely different and someone would be held to account for their decision

When I was driving 95/100/110mph mail trains on the East Coast the signaller always put us away to allow the GNER expresses to pass, it caused no problems and no action was required to deal with anything

But an awful lot of the loops that used to allow those freights to be turned inside are no longer there. Most of us must have had the experience of running at low speed for 20 miles or even more on a passenger train because a freight has been sent out straight in front and there is nowhere to pass.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But an awful lot of the loops that used to allow those freights to be turned inside are no longer there. Most of us must have had the experience of running at low speed for 20 miles or even more on a passenger train because a freight has been sent out straight in front and there is nowhere to pass.

How much has that got to do with the closure of loops and alternatively fitting more and more trains into the timetable with freight operators also expecting their trains to run on time? In terms of the MML I wonder how many have actually closed since the 1980's? I can only think of two, one by the down line at Sheet Stores (Long Eaton) and one by the down line at Duffield. The latter now prevents access from Wirksworth on to Network Rail at Duffield.

 

[edwin_m]

The down loop at Clay Cross has also closed fairly recently.

Freight loops are actually of limited use on a busy railway. The length of time it takes a train to start up from the loop and get up to speed can be considerable, especially if it's a heavy train with diesel haulage on a rising gradient. When a train is looped it can be difficult to find a long enough gap between approaching faster trains to get it out again.

 

[Camden]

What's the odds on Corby going exclusively over to Thameslink post electrification? And what would the resulting journey times be like?