The HUGE stretch from the end of platform 1 at Loughborough to the 110mph at Hathern!And which unelectrified 125mph lines would these run on?
The HUGE stretch from the end of platform 1 at Loughborough to the 110mph at Hathern!And which unelectrified 125mph lines would these run on?
Interestingly for those comparing project costs, the £9.6bn of WCRM at closure in 2008, but at 2006 prices, is around £17bn in today's money.A lot of negative conversation in here.
Despite the record high (peacetime) national debt they have inherited, we have seen substantial rail investment.
Yes, not every scheme we might have liked, but many, urban and mainline.
And as we saw previously, pauses have not all been cancellation... Some would say a measured approach is less PR but more likely to succeed.
Regarding the power supply upgrades, I ddidn't read it as any more money for ECML, simply a reference to the pretty much complete power part of the wider ECML upgrade programme. Which given the descope in Scotland probably means diesel TPEs for the foreseeable.
WCML will presumably be further funding of the 25 year long AT conversion that has been running since WCRM was curtailed due to the cost overruns back in the 2000s, and in the past decade has been funded for one or two of the descoped feeding areas each control period.
(For younger members, WCRM was Railtrack's WCML upgrade of the late 90s - mid 00s that was intended to deliver 140mph and higher capacity, promising reduced costs by using new suppliers, innovative designs and technologies, but ended up over budget and delayed, and was ultimately heavily descoped.)
A letter provided by Network Rail, notifying residents of upcoming engineering works on the MML.
The ultimate question has to be, do we actually need a rolling programme of electrification?
What is this rolling platform of electrification going to be for?
Battery technology that exists today could enable the complete elimination of diesel passenger operation on the railway with only a comparatively small quantity of additional electrification.
I'd wager it is likely less than the amount of track kilometres on the unapproved sections of the MML scheme, or at least not many more than that.
Running such a large scheme to have the capability for a scheme that is probably smaller than that might not be a sensible strategy.
I'm not clear that a battery train will really have substantially greater maintenance or operational costs than a conventional straight EMU. It doesn't even have significantly more moving parts.
After all electrification that doesn't exist doesn't consume maintenance resources.
If we achieve battery based electric operation, is there any pressing need to ever install more electrification?
We might need some conventional electrification later for freight if battery technology turns out to be impractical, but that seems a long shot hedge at this point.
The fiscal rules apply to day to day spending - MMLe would not be counted as such. This is Grayling 2.0, with a red rosette this time using the exact same argument.Sounds like desperate British exceptionalism. Waiting for unproven technology to save us from what we should have done decades ago. Oh silly Europeans sinking money into electrification for we alone have got it right by waiting for batteries to come to the rescue.
Batteries are expensive and require constant replacement. Fleets of battery buses are now grounded in China, because while there was government funding for initial purchase, there is no funding stream for mid-life battery replacement. Then there's the issue of mining lithium and cobalt, and we don't even know how to quantify it (but it's there and very real).
In electrification business cases the opex saving term from running BEMUs is much reduced compared with straight EMUs. Essentially you don't get the savings in rolling stock capital costs, as the lifecycle cost of batteries is equivalent to the DMU premium over EMU. Over a certain traffic threshold paying for wires gives you a better present value than paying for batteries. I think you are right that day-to-day maintenance of BEMUs is comparable to that of straight EMUs.
There's a 'we are where we are' element that EDMUs for the route have already been ordered, so the rolling stock capital savings are already foregone. Unless a business case gets made for, say, Cross Country capacity enhancement that could absorb the Class 810s, then that cost has to stay with the MMLE business case (I'm simplifying but you get the gist).
It could be that (I'm entirely speculating) someone within DfT/Treasury quarters have worked out realistically the earliest opportunity for Class 810 to go to Cross Country is after 2030 (once the 220s come up for replacement), then MMLE and the associated straight EMU order (by which time the electrification business case can bank the rolling stock capital cost saving) don't need to be in a hurry.
That said, for the sake of a small number of years, I suspect disrupting industry continuity will prove again to be penny wise pound foolish.
The government got themselves in a bind by promising no tax rises and setting such restrictive annual fiscal rules.
The Europeans are in a rather different situation, given that they have been able to achieve electrification at costs that are a small fraction of those that Network Rail has proved capable of.Sounds like desperate British exceptionalism. Waiting for unproven technology to save us from what we should have done decades ago. Oh silly Europeans sinking money into electrification for we alone have got it right by waiting for batteries to come to the rescue.
They might be expensive in terms of individual people. not compared to the costs of railway infrastructure.Batteries are expensive and require constant replacement. Fleets of battery buses are now grounded in China, because while there was government funding for initial purchase, there is no funding stream for mid-life battery replacement. Then there's the issue of mining lithium and cobalt, and we don't even know how to quantify it (but it's there and very real).
Yes, the capital cost of batteries would conceptually overwhelm the capital cost of electrification at very high traffic levels.In electrification business cases the opex saving term from running BEMUs is much reduced compared with straight EMUs. Essentially you don't get the savings in rolling stock capital costs, as the lifecycle cost of batteries is equivalent to the DMU premium over EMU. Over a certain traffic threshold paying for wires gives you a better present value than paying for batteries. I think you are right that day-to-day maintenance of BEMUs is comparable to that of straight EMUs.
Is it just clearances that are driving the gulf in costs between the UK and Europe?The Europeans are in a rather different situation, given that they have been able to achieve electrification at costs that are a small fraction of those that Network Rail has proved capable of.
We have been spending £2.5m-4.5m per track kilometre on recent projects. Even the pro electrification literature has come to the view that we can't get much under £2m/stkm
Electrification costs in Europe are way lower than that, which fundamentally changes the economics.
They might be expensive in terms of individual people. not compared to the costs of railway infrastructure.
As for cobalt, the BYD batteries I use in my data examples are lithium iron phosphate chemistry and don't contain any cobalt.
Most industry obsevers suggest that the cost for BYD Blade batteries is now under $100/kWh ex works.
Yes, the capital cost of batteries would conceptually overwhelm the capital cost of electrification at very high traffic levels.
The problem is that the achieved costs for electrification are now so high that I am skeptical that any non electrified line in the UK would meet them.
After all, 71% of the rolling stock fleet is already EMUs.
The programmes that have come before this one have already cleared up a big chunk of the traffic.
We have only 423 loco hauled vehicles, 2887 diesel vehicles and 1100 electrodiesel vehicles on the system after all.
The Europeans are in a rather different situation, given that they have been able to achieve electrification at costs that are a small fraction of those that Network Rail has proved capable of.
We have been spending £2.5m-4.5m per track kilometre on recent projects. Even the pro electrification literature has come to the view that we can't get much under £2m/stkm
Electrification costs in Europe are way lower than that, which fundamentally changes the economics.
They might be expensive in terms of individual people. not compared to the costs of railway infrastructure.
As for cobalt, the BYD batteries I use in my data examples are lithium iron phosphate chemistry and don't contain any cobalt.
Most industry obsevers suggest that the cost for BYD Blade batteries is now under $100/kWh ex works.
Yes, the capital cost of batteries would conceptually overwhelm the capital cost of electrification at very high traffic levels.
The problem is that the achieved costs for electrification are now so high that I am skeptical that any non electrified line in the UK would meet them.
After all, 71% of the rolling stock fleet is already EMUs.
The programmes that have come before this one have already cleared up a big chunk of the traffic.
We have only 423 loco hauled vehicles, 2887 diesel vehicles and 1100 electrodiesel vehicles on the system after all.
There is actually some 125 just north of Loughborough , literally just off the platform and in the Down direction only. But not much over 120 generally.We'll be carrying on like that anyway for many years even if this go-ahead had been given to move marginally further north.
Well its not surprising that the train didn't manage to attain 125mph with a single 700kW battery.
A Class 810 has four such generator units, so it would easily attain 125mph if all were replaced.
It's also only 70 ish miles from Wigston to Sheffield via Derby.
If an electrification island was provided on the slow lines in and around Sheffield station, the performance of the train would likely be acceptable.
Also, according to the sectional appendix, there is no 125mph running on the non electrified portion of the MML (ie. north of Wigston).
There are limited sections of 120mph, but much is significantly slower than that.
So your argument shifts to 'we've always been incompetent so we can only carry on being incompetent'.
That's squarely down to our politics. Our politics never gave the industry the space and time to develop stable long term corporate memory to deliver electrification cheaply. As soon as our people get good we lose them to Australia and the Middle East.
Competence is non-negotiable.
Where the 29% of the fleet operates is where the majority of the country's car km are and where rail usage needs to double. If our regional cities are to have Utrecht's suburban rail service levels (and our regional cities NEED to develop that kind of economies to not be fiscal drags on the country), then without electrification the emissions of all those additional diesels would not be trivial, or the cost of all those additional batteries.
There are other countries with similar clearance problems. Network Rail’s innovative voltage controlled clearances are actually copied from Denmark, which has similar constraints.Is it just clearances that are driving the gulf in costs between the UK and Europe?
Or is it the tendency to lump in other projects and not use BR style accounting. One good thing about GBR is that it should lead to less expansive accounting around enhancements and seemingly inflated costs.

The railway was given years and many billions of pounds to demonstrate that it could do the job on the Great Western Route Modernisation scheme.So your argument shifts to 'we've always been incompetent so we can only carry on being incompetent'.
That's squarely down to our politics. Our politics never gave the industry the space and time to develop stable long term corporate memory to deliver electrification cheaply. As soon as our people get good we lose them to Australia and the Middle East.
Competence is non-negotiable.
Well the cost of power supply upgrades in recent years has been a small fraction of the cost of new electrification.It also assumes that so the electrified lines have plenty of spare juice to allow for charging as well as running more electric trains (remembering that there's already a lot of diesel running under wires).
Given the large increases in capital cost of electrification at 25kV, and the climb in interest rates. Most likely 4tph is too lightly used to be economic.Or do those who support battery trains suggest that lines with 4tph are too lightly used to justify wires?
The railway was given years and many billions of pounds to demonstrate that it could do the job on the Great Western Route Modernisation scheme.
It botched it so badly that the government was forced to pull the plug to stem teh bleeding.
We’re far more expensive for deep structural factors including - but not exclusively - high energy costs, skill-shortages and a fragmented industry structure. It‘s not simply because we didn’t give the industry enough time to learn to get cheaper.So your argument shifts to 'we've always been incompetent so we can only carry on being incompetent'.
That's squarely down to our politics. Our politics never gave the industry the space and time to develop stable long term corporate memory to deliver electrification cheaply. As soon as our people get good we lose them to Australia and the Middle East.
Competence is non-negotiable.
We now don't have Grantham - Newark situations on the MML.
Try Bedford to Derby. Or even Wellingborough to Market Harboro.
We’re far more expensive for deep structural factors including - but not exclusively - high energy costs, skill-shortages and a fragmented industry structure. It‘s not simply because we didn’t give the industry enough time to learn to get cheaper.
But how much of that was due to external factors outside the railway's control? How can we be sure that those same external factors wouldn't rear their ugly head when it comes to implementing battery trains?The railway was given years and many billions of pounds to demonstrate that it could do the job on the Great Western Route Modernisation scheme.
It botched it so badly that the government was forced to pull the plug to stem the bleeding.
Despite the headlines things are still happening!This letter came through the post for residents living in the Wigston area.
I wonder what ‘Preparation and follow up work’ means? Doing electrification related work under the radar I wonder? Hmm…Despite the headlines things are still happening!
Agreed, it was given one short cycle with a GO GO GO GO GO DO IT ALL NOW! Approach, which was almost setting it up to fail. Not that the industry is innocent.It was given one short cycle. These things take at least a whole generation.
Agreed, it was given one short cycle with a GO GO GO GO GO DO IT ALL NOW! Approach, which was almost setting it up to fail. Not that the industry is innocent.
Who knows, Britain might be able to lead the world with largely wire less trains! In 50 years time most of the wires may have been removed.
Both!Can't tell if this is satire or delusion ...
The MMLEP pause is IMHO nothing to do with costs, delays (and batteries) etc which have been reasonable for the Glendon Jn Wigston sections. Rather it is a change of emphasis to Mayor led localism with £15.7Bn transport funding allocated to nine authoriies. The EM get £2Bn alone and the WM gets £2.5Bn etc etc.
Heavy rail should get its act together and try to convince these bodies that some of their treasure is worth putting into serious rail rather than just light rail. It should use the immediate disappointment of the politicians of the Leicester/Nottingham/Derby/B'ham quadrangle to deflect a little our way.
Follow the (tsunami of) money.
WAO
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Working people in cities and towns from Sunderland to Solihull will benefit from the biggest investment in regional transport, as every part of the country prospers under Plan for Change.www.gov.uk
I think you're being a bit too kind to those that hold the purse-strings and sponsor these schemes. They should have known that a rapid ramp up in electrification (or any other type of activity) and reliance on insufficiently proven technology brings risk. But they looked at the cheap debt and the electoral cycle and told Network Rail to crack on. This kind of behaviour is also a key failure that's part of HS2's tales of woe.The railway was given years and many billions of pounds to demonstrate that it could do the job on the Great Western Route Modernisation scheme.
It botched it so badly that the government was forced to pull the plug to stem the bleeding.
The MMLEP pause is IMHO nothing to do with costs, delays (and batteries) etc which have been reasonable for the Glendon Jn Wigston sections.
Leics County is now Reform so the idea that Labour make themselves even less popular in favour of some of the folk now on the County Council is frankly demoralising.I do wonder if Labour will pay an electoral price. Not because electrification is the dominant issue in the East Midlands,