MML Electrification: How should it be done?

[Bald Rick]

Network Rail were saying the economics of electrifying the entire MML were compelling back in the mid 2000's, yet we're still no closer to the wires appearing.

you might have missed, that since then, lots of wires have appeared on the MML, with more being put up now.

 

[ricoblade]

I think you will see them in the next ten years. As I understand it, the economics of electrification are compelling at intensively used sections of railway like Sheffield.

And all the trends are moving in the right direction to reinforce those economics: the advent of bimode 810 EMUs and class 93 & 99 locomotives; increased cost of diesel and reducing cost of wind-powered electricity; the availability of and the need to charge battery EMUs; pressure to decarbonise; rapidly improving battery technology. Despite the coming austerity, the financial case will become overwhelming.

That's all waaaaaay too logical!

 

[dosxuk]

you might have missed, that since then, lots of wires have appeared on the MML, with more being put up now.

And still no decision whether they should carry on from Wigston north. Everyone is assuming they will be, but until I start seeing spades in the ground up this way, I will refuse to believe it. As a project it's been approved and cancelled more times than I can count.

 

[zwk500]

And still no decision whether they should carry on from Wigston north. Everyone is assuming they will be, but until I start seeing spades in the ground up this way, I will refuse to believe it. As a project it's been approved and cancelled more times than I can count.

I think it's more that they aren't yet sure exactly how to do the section from Wigston to Syston. If there's a grid feeder been applied for at Kegworth, there's obviously a strong intent to wire the Syston-Derby/Nottingham sections. Feeder Stations are expensive, you don't put them in for fun. Also, the section through Leicester station may require extensive reconstruction for clearances as well as remodelling for capacity. If it's possible, doing both at the same time saves money.

I do completely understand the cynicism though!

 

[QSK19]

Also, the section through Leicester station may require extensive reconstruction for clearances as well as remodelling for capacity.

Here’s an idea. Can’t you have discontinuous wires, each set of which finishes at each end of the London Road bridge?

Trains can then drop the pan just before they reach the bridge, coast through the bridge and then raise the pan once past the bridge. If the train has to come to a stop right before the bridge, fire up the engines to get through and then swap to electric on the move once under the other set of wires.

Not sure of the practicalities nor technical aspects/implications of this; but it could save a hell of a lot of reconstruction work?

 

[ABB125]

Here’s an idea. Can’t you have discontinuous wires, each set of which finishes at each end of the London Road bridge?

Trains can then drop the pan just before they reach the bridge, coast through the bridge and then raise the pan once past the bridge. If the train has to come to a stop right before the bridge, fire up the engines to get through and then swap to electric on the move once under the other set of wires.

Not sure of the practicalities nor technical aspects/implications of this; but it could save a hell of a lot of reconstruction work?

Surely you could just have a neutral section under the bridge, rather than have all the hassle of lowering/raising pantographs?

 

[dosxuk]

IIRC isn't the main part of the problem here not the actual bridge, but the proximity of the platform access to any OLE once into the station proper, and the maximum gradient of the wires.

Although I agree, if you can't electrify it, you'd just have an unpowered wire / fixed beam for the pan to slide along, rather than rely on it being dropped and eradicate the risk and disruption of it not being done correctly.

 

[John R]

And still no decision whether they should carry on from Wigston north. Everyone is assuming they will be, but until I start seeing spades in the ground up this way, I will refuse to believe it. As a project it's been approved and cancelled more times than I can count.

It's only a few months since the (entirely logical) decision was made to keep the electrification team together by extending the wires northward to Wigston as the stretch to Market H nears completion. That in itself shows some intent to keep the programme going. Subsequent phases need more planning/design before they can get to the point where they can be regarded as committed schemes, but the fact that they are not committed doesn't mean that work isn't going on to progress them.

 

[QSK19]

Surely you could just have a neutral section under the bridge, rather than have all the hassle of lowering/raising pantographs?

Hadn’t thought about that!

 

[londonmidland]

Surely you could just have a neutral section under the bridge, rather than have all the hassle of lowering/raising pantographs?

How would that work with the proximity of trains which are stationary whilst calling at the station, heading south?

Surely it’d lead to the risk of it getting stuck within the neutral section?

 

[Mikey C]

It's only a few months since the (entirely logical) decision was made to keep the electrification team together by extending the wires northward to Wigston as the stretch to Market H nears completion. That in itself shows some intent to keep the programme going. Subsequent phases need more planning/design before they can get to the point where they can be regarded as committed schemes, but the fact that they are not committed doesn't mean that work isn't going on to progress them.

Indeed the curio of the whole MML electrification programme, is that while the cancellation announcement was high profile, work has been subsequently progressing without fanfare.

The section to Market H is being electrified without any fuss, and work on continuing this to Wigston started before any announcement had been made.

 

[QSK19]

How would that work with the proximity of trains which are stationary whilst calling at the station, heading south?

Surely it’d lead to the risk of it getting stuck within the neutral section?

Diesel engines fire up, move the train out of the neutral section and then pan up maybe?

Presumably the 810s will stay as BMUs for their whole life, batteries replacing the engines; in which case there would always be an off-the-wires traction method to get the train out of the neutral section in such a scenario.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to Modern Railways, quoted in Jul 2019, wiring through Leicester station is feasible using the same techniques as used at the Queen St bridge in Cardiff. Post #2964 in this thread refers:

Mr Stainton also told the conference about getting the wires under Queen Street bridge in Cardiff, which will be successfully done using surge arrestors, bridge insulation, wire insulation and a risk-based approach to clearances. He confirmed the same measures would work for Leicester station bridge, the nastiest bit on the Midland main line.

MML Electrification: progress updates

Does anybody have any figures on how over budget and over time the GW electrification project actually is now? The estimate from 2011 when the branches were added was completion by 2017 at a cost of £874m. It’s still not finished and we’re currently looking at £2.8bn.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Indeed the curio of the whole MML electrification programme, is that while the cancellation announcement was high profile, work has been subsequently progressing without fanfare.

The section to Market H is being electrified without any fuss, and work on continuing this to Wigston started before any announcement had been made.

Once burned, twice shy comes to mind. I suspect the politicians were worried about 'flip-flop' questions, and decided it was easier to just say nothing and then have a ribbon-cutting photo op at the end.

 

[Nottingham59]

It's only a few months since the (entirely logical) decision was made to keep the electrification team together by extending the wires northward to Wigston as the stretch to Market H nears completion. That in itself shows some intent to keep the programme going. Subsequent phases need more planning/design before they can get to the point where they can be regarded as committed schemes, but the fact that they are not committed doesn't mean that work isn't going on to progress them.

MML electrification is a very useful project for keeping teams together. The line was committed in the IRP (for now), but it can be done in stages, as the 810s can always run on diesel.

From a whole supply chain perspective, I imagine the most effective phasing would be to ramp up MML electrification, until the time when HS2 starts putting up the wires. At that point, you switch the entire focus to electrifying HS2 to Crewe, and then switch back to completing MML to Sheffield.

But that would require joined up thinking by DfT, and avoiding the austerity axe that is coming from Sunak and Hunt in a couple of weeks time.

 

[cle]

Did the plans for Leicester (additional platform, lines) get decided upon and/or approved? Surely that will have a big impact - similar to Oxford - and better to see those works finished first?

 

[ABB125]

How would that work with the proximity of trains which are stationary whilst calling at the station, heading south?

Surely it’d lead to the risk of it getting stuck within the neutral section?

It would be no different to not installing a wire at all, which was the original suggestion I was replying to. Fortunately...

According to Modern Railways, quoted in Jul 2019, wiring through Leicester station is feasible using the same techniques as used at the Queen St bridge in Cardiff. Post #2964 in this thread refers:

MML Electrification: progress updates

Does anybody have any figures on how over budget and over time the GW electrification project actually is now? The estimate from 2011 when the branches were added was completion by 2017 at a cost of £874m. It’s still not finished and we’re currently looking at £2.8bn.

www.railforums.co.uk

... it seems like common sense has prevailed and the bridge is (probably) going to be wired properly!

 

[59CosG95]

Did the plans for Leicester (additional platform, lines) get decided upon and/or approved? Surely that will have a big impact - similar to Oxford - and better to see those works finished first?

I think that, while the remodelling would originally happen as a separate project to electrification, that the two might be rolled together.
This would also make sense if the 4th track between Leicester & Syston was ever restored.

Doing RS3 first after RS1 also gets the heaviest lifting (in terms of single track km) out of the way. IIRC most of the bridges there have already received W10 clearance for containers, and so would need much less work done to pass the OLE beneath them.

 

[snowball]

According to #5169 eletrification of Wigston to Syston was planned to go ahead without any track alterations, but that was probably before the decision to delay the electrification of that section relative to the other sections.

 

[zwk500]

I think that, while the remodelling would originally happen as a separate project to electrification, that the two might be rolled together.
This would also make sense if the 4th track between Leicester & Syston was ever restored.

The remodelling has been playing the Hokey Cokey with the Electrification for a while yet, I think

Doing RS3 first after RS1 also gets the heaviest lifting (in terms of single track km) out of the way. IIRC most of the bridges there have already received W10 clearance for containers, and so would need much less work done to pass the OLE beneath them.

Although worth mentioning that W10 clearance is about the corners, the max height of a container on the centreline is actually not very different at all from W6, but the contact wire needs clearance beyond W10 to fit through.

 

[zwk500]

Agreed on the power station, but with the introduction of bimode freight locomotives, isn't there a point that electrifying the branch would make sense even if, at first, there is no likelihood for electric only trains?

Conversely, bimode freight locomotives reduce the need to wire last-mile lines like this.

 

[Trainbike46]

Conversely, bimode freight locomotives reduce the need to wire last-mile lines like this.

yes, that is true, whether it is worth wiring will depend in large part on how much it would cost. Here, there shouldn't be any bridges to fix so it should be low cost compared to other schemes, specifically if you wouldn't need any extra grid connections for the branch

 

[zwk500]

yes, that is true, whether it is worth wiring will depend in large part on how much it would cost. Here, there shouldn't be any bridges to fix so it should be low cost compared to other schemes, specifically if you wouldn't need any extra grid connections for the branch

Given the low benefit for this line and the additional complexities it introduces at Sheet Stores Jn, it's better not to wire it until it's definitely needed IMHO. Especially with uncertainty about HS2's impact on the Trent triangle area and potential remodelling options that were being discussed. Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield are the prize at stake.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed on the power station, but with the introduction of bimode freight locomotives, isn't there a point that electrifying the branch would make sense even if, at first, there is no likelihood for electric only trains?

Quite the opposite. it’s not sensible to have wires in the terminal, therefore some form of ‘other’ traction will be needed for the last half mile or so. In any event I don’t think the bimode locos on order will be running this sort of flow. They’ll be on flows that are predominantly electrified, which this isn’t (And still won’t be post MML wiring).

 

[Shred Metal]

Did the plans for Leicester (additional platform, lines) get decided upon and/or approved? Surely that will have a big impact - similar to Oxford - and better to see those works finished first?

Possibly also waiting on news of the Burton - Leicester line which is in the final rounds of the Restoring Your Railway scheme.

That would need figuring out alongside the capacity improvements. Wires after.

 

[Bald Rick]

Did the plans for Leicester (additional platform, lines) get decided upon and/or approved?

No.

Possibly also waiting on news of the Burton - Leicester line which is in the final rounds of the Restoring Your Railway scheme.

it’s not in the ‘final rounds’, not at all.

 

[Shred Metal]

it’s not in the ‘final rounds’, not at all.

*Knockouts

In context to the ‘141 unique bids’

 

[Bald Rick]

*Knockouts

In context to the ‘141 unique bids’

oh I see! I thought you meant final stages of development. Sorry.

 

[CdBrux]

No.

What are the unknowns or uncertainties preventing a final design being proposed or approved and is there some kind of 'end point' in sight or are there probably several more rounds of 'studies' to be done?

 

[snowball]

deleted - I mistook the subject of the last 3 posts.