MKC-Croydon service

[MK Tom]

I have a couple of questions about this service which I use often...

• Is there any intention to extend up to MKC on Sundays?
• Is there any intention to increase trains up to eight cars?
• Why was the service extended from East Croydon to South Croydon? This seems like such a tiny change and hardly worth the effort...
• Is there any hope of future extensions south? Presently travellers from the WCML to the south coast have to change at Clapham. It seems like it'd inconvenience far fewer people to skip out all the stops between Clapham and Croydon, serve those with local stoppers and extend this service to Gatwick, Brighton or Bognor. Far more people change at Clapham for the south coast than do for Balham/Stretham/Norbury etc.

Many thanks!

 

[sonic2009]

I wouldn't think they would extend up to MKC on a Sunday due to pathing issues and the fact that sometimes the fast lines between Euston & Milton Keynes are shut in places at weekends forcing everything on to the slows, as for extending to 8 car i don't think Southern have the operational and rolling stock capacity to do this.

I think the extension to South Croydon was to free up platform space at East Croydon.

I dont exactly know how long the turn around times are at South Croydon, but this could be a factor. Shorter turnaround at South Croydon rather than a longer one at East Croydon.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

[tbtc]

AFAIK its moving to eight coach operation (377s?) and the South Croydon extension is more about "finding somewhere to stick it out of the way to avoid hogging up valuable platform space at East Croydon" than any real passenger reason

 

[Lrd]

• Why was the service extended from East Croydon to South Croydon? This seems like such a tiny change and hardly worth the effort...

Purely just to get it out the way of busy East Croydon to turn around.

 

[OxtedL]

Don't take this as gospel.

I have a couple of questions about this service which I use often...
Is there any intention to extend up to MKC on Sundays?

That would require extra resources - given as London Midland are mainly responsible for this route, Southern probably see Brighton and the coast as priorities. I speculate not therefore. There will be other reasons.

Is there any intention to increase trains up to eight cars?

TfL have a known aspiration to lengthen the WLL platforms (see this spotted here) to 8-car, which is longer than any train that LOROL would run under the same plans. I've no idea where that plan is at, but outside of the WLL all platforms are long enough. The intention must be for Southern to run these longer services but it is unclear whether they will go north of Shepherds Bush - Southern might not have the stock to do this.

Why was the service extended from East Croydon to South Croydon? This seems like such a tiny change and hardly worth the effort...

To free platform space at East Croydon - I see everyone else has got here before me. This doesn't seem to have really been used from what I've seen standing for ages on platform 6 trying to get home but probably gives flexibility.

Is there any hope of future extensions south? Presently travellers from the WCML to the south coast have to change at Clapham. It seems like it'd inconvenience far fewer people to skip out all the stops between Clapham and Croydon, serve those with local stoppers and extend this service to Gatwick, Brighton or Bognor. Far more people change at Clapham for the south coast than do for Balham/Stretham/Norbury etc.

The WLL platforms link the slow lines south of Clapham and there is nowhere to cross to the fasts until near Balham. Both the fasts and the slows between Croydon and Clapham are very busy and it'd be a massive performance risk to cross anything to the fasts, so the service is probably stuck on the slows, meaning it may as well be a stopping service, or it'd just crawl along behind the train ahead.

By East Croydon two fast trains have already overtaken the current service, so you might as well change at Clapham regardless.

I hope this helps and is not fundamentally inaccurate.

 

[swt_passenger]

TfL have a known aspiration to lengthen the WLL platforms (see this spotted here) to 8-car, which is longer than any train that LOROL would run under the same plans. I've no idea where that plan is at, but outside of the WLL all platforms are long enough. The intention must be for Southern to run these longer services but it is unclear whether they will go north of Shepherds Bush - Southern might not have the stock to do this.

I think that was just TfL duplicating what NR had already been proposing for quite a while though - I don't see it as a TfL driven proposal.

SN 8 car trains on WLL was already a live proposal in the Cross London RUS of 2006 , and repeated in the London and SE RUS draft of Dec 2010, then confirmed in the final version, Jul 2011 - option I2 if you want to look it up.
Timescales are given simply as 'when the rolling stock becomes available'. (Assumed generally to be a future use of ex Thamslink 377/5s.) They also want to run 2 tph as well, at least as far as Watford Jn - option I1. Again this is intended following Thameslink rolling stock introduction making 377/5s available.

 

[MCR247]

Couldn't it also happen by units released by 377/6s or are they just replacing 455s?

 

[OxtedL]

I think that was just TfL duplicating what NR had already been proposing for quite a while though - I don't see it as a TfL driven proposal.

SN 8 car trains on WLL was already a live proposal in the Cross London RUS of 2006 , and repeated in the London and SE RUS draft of Dec 2010, then confirmed in the final version, Jul 2011 - option I2 if you want to look it up.
Timescales are given simply as 'when the rolling stock becomes available'. (Assumed generally to be a future use of ex Thamslink 377/5s.) They also want to run 2 tph as well, at least as far as Watford Jn - option I1. Again this is intended following Thameslink rolling stock introduction making 377/5s available.

I had a look at the L&SE RUS earlier but had all but forgotten about the existence of the Cross London RUS. Strange to think that the WLL was a completely different place when that was published, Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush didn't even exist...

In this from July 2011 TfL mention an all day 2tph [stn]CLJ[/stn]<>Shepherds Bush 8-car shuttle as an aspiration, so could be considered the more ambitious party here. That would require two trains (looking at current ~14 minute journey times) with a lot of spare time, but they wouldn't have to be AC.

Couldn't it also happen by units released by 377/6s or are they just replacing 455s?

It's been mentioned in a few places on the forum that they stand in for 456s and 377/5s - 455s aren't going just yet.
I misunderstood. Gah. Darn me and my feeble attempts at pedantry.

 

[swt_passenger]

Couldn't it also happen by units released by 377/6s or are they just replacing 455s?

Perhaps, but I'd strongly suspect the platform lengthening necessary is already planned to coincide with the later date? (BTW this project is listed in the CP5 HLOS options.)

Depends if any 377/2s become available following 377/6 delivery I suppose, but AIUI they'd need 10 for the 8 car service (which is basically feasible with 3 away with FCC), but 20 if they ran the 2 tph version all the way to MK, with some intermediate number if the second service only ran to Watford Jn...

In the absence of any categoric info about exactly what/when/where the 377/6s will be used though, it's mostly guesswork isn't it? I don't think they'll actually replace any 455s, more likely allow displacing them onto other routes such as those given up by the 456s going off lease from SN early 2014.

 

[Bald Rick]

WLL platform extensions will be done in CP4.

 

[swt_passenger]

WLL platform extensions will be done in CP4.

Where are you getting that info please?

There is a reference to WLL platform lengthening in the latest CP4 milestones, (June 2012), but only in the context of the 'CP5 development fund'. I though that meant they were funded for stuff like option selection and design, but not the actual building work.

Good if they really are starting soon though...

 

[Bald Rick]

Where are you getting that info please?

There is a reference to WLL platform lengthening in the latest CP4 milestones, (June 2012), but only in the context of the 'CP5 development fund'. I though that meant they were funded for stuff like option selection and design, but not the actual building work.

Good if they really are starting soon though...

Deal is just about done. Will check the details in the morning.

 

[cm39275]

Surley a good idea for expansion whould be to divert the service from Bletchley to terminate at Bedford, once the wires have been srung up as part off the electric spine. at the northen end. Then you could extend the service at the southern end to Brighton to create an alternative route to the service via the thameslink tunnels, maybe they could also have a portion attach and dettach at Bletchley for Milton Kynes

 

[MCR247]

How about no? Why on earth would that be a good idea?

 

[IanD]

Surley a good idea for expansion whould be to divert the service from Bletchley to terminate at Bedford, once the wires have been srung up as part off the electric spine. at the northen end. Then you could extend the service at the southern end to Brighton to create an alternative route to the service via the thameslink tunnels.

Excellent idea. Give Milton Keynes a swerve and have a duplicate but much longer service from Brighton to Bedford.

A better idea would be to run services to/from MK later on a Saturday evening.

 

[Bedpan]

Attaching/detaching a portion at Bletchley would be a waste of time (literally), but running alternately Brighton - MK and Brighton - Bedford would be a good idea. Can't see it happening though in view of capacity on the Brighton line though. Remember that when the WLL service first started, it ran Brighton - Rugby. Then they truncated to Watford Junc afaicr due to insufficient rolling stock before changing to today's route of Croydon - Milton Keynes dur to capacity issues at the southern end. As has already been said, there's no room to switch to the fast lines between Clapham Junction and East Croydon, and South ofv East Croydon there are the extra 4 tph from Thameslink.

 

[cm39275]

Attaching/detaching a portion at Bletchley would be a waste of time (literally), but running alternately Brighton - MK and Brighton - Bedford would be a good idea. Can't see it happening though in view of capacity on the Brighton line though. Remember that when the WLL service first started, it ran Brighton - Rugby. Then they truncated to Watford Junc afaicr due to insufficient rolling stock before changing to today's route of Croydon - Milton Keynes dur to capacity issues at the southern end. As has already been said, there's no room to switch to the fast lines between Clapham Junction and East Croydon, and South ofv East Croydon there are the extra 4 tph from Thameslink.

How about they join the portion from Milton Keynes/ Bedford via wcml which could be two 3 coach 377's, with another two 3 coach 377's from bedford via midland main line and thameslink to form a 12 coach service from East Croydon to Brighton hence no more paths are needed on southern half off the route. This whould also provide the midlands and the north west a connection back to Brighton via a change at one off the intermediate west coast main line stations with out having to use the underground in central london, which is one off the thoerys behind my original proposal.

 

[MCR247]

You are trying to justify a way to run an amazingly pointless service? Why?

 

[MK Tom]

You are trying to justify a way to run an amazingly pointless service? Why?

I wasn't going to be the one to say that.

The most notable unserved demand on the current service is for through WCML-BML passengers, especially MKC and WFJ to Gatwick and Brighton. I really don't see any potential profit from a Bedford via Bletchley service seeing as the ludicrous linespeeds at Willesden already make the WLL a very slow route. The Thameslink services are rammed as they are so cutting them down from 12 to 6 cars north of Croydon would be insane.

ANYWAY if it's not possible or feasible to cut out the Balham etc section of the route, maybe sufficient time savings could be made omitting stops at Bletchley, Tring and Berkhamsted (perhaps filled in by additional LM stops) to make extending to Gatwick possible? Or if turning around on the busy BML is an Issue, Three Bridges or somewhere on the Littlehampton line perhaps. But really what's most desirable is a direct service into Brighton itself from MKC and the larger towns between here and Watford.

 

[OxtedL]

There'd be little point in a direct service when it would be much quicker to change at Clapham (or go to Euston and tube to either Victoria or London Bridge).

 

[mister-sparky]

a service from the WLL is never going to go any further south than South Croydon due to pathing. full stop. there are no paths. and none are going to become available anytime soon. but, it would be good if it did go further.

 

[al green]

I wasn't going to be the one to say that.


ANYWAY if it's not possible or feasible to cut out the Balham etc section of the route, maybe sufficient time savings could be made omitting stops at Bletchley, Tring and Berkhamsted (perhaps filled in by additional LM stops) to make extending to Gatwick possible? Or if turning around on the busy BML is an Issue, Three Bridges or somewhere on the Littlehampton line perhaps. But really what's most desirable is a direct service into Brighton itself from MKC and the larger towns between here and Watford.

Its not just the issue of crossing from slow to fast south of CJ or saving time. If you look at, I think it was BML RUS, it was about making best use of paths on BML. The choice is 8/10/12 cars out of Vic vs 4 cars off WLL. When you've got serious overcrowding thats a no-brainer. As a resident of MK who used to use the old Rugby-Brighton service I really wish that we could get it back but I can see why long trains should have priority over short ones for scarce paths.

 

[Class377/5]

Perhaps, but I'd strongly suspect the platform lengthening necessary is already planned to coincide with the later date? (BTW this project is listed in the CP5 HLOS options.)

Depends if any 377/2s become available following 377/6 delivery I suppose, but AIUI they'd need 10 for the 8 car service (which is basically feasible with 3 away with FCC), but 20 if they ran the 2 tph version all the way to MK, with some intermediate number if the second service only ran to Watford Jn...

In the absence of any categoric info about exactly what/when/where the 377/6s will be used though, it's mostly guesswork isn't it? I don't think they'll actually replace any 455s, more likely allow displacing them onto other routes such as those given up by the 456s going off lease from SN early 2014.

Its all tied into the 377/5's. The plan is to go to 2tph 8 car all day long requiring much more rolling stock than is used at present. Currently 5 units are needed all day with pretty much the rest of the 377/2 fleet off on other duties on 3rd rail.

The planned 8 car 2tph will likely need around 23 units freeing up some dual voltage units to do some DC work. But platform extensions are needed first.

Aren't the platform extenstions on the WLL now needed for LO 5 car plan as well as Southern's 8 cars?

 

[cle]

Its all tied into the 377/5's. The plan is to go to 2tph 8 car all day long requiring much more rolling stock than is used at present. Currently 5 units are needed all day with pretty much the rest of the 377/2 fleet off on other duties on 3rd rail.

The planned 8 car 2tph will likely need around 23 units freeing up some dual voltage units to do some DC work. But platform extensions are needed first.

Aren't the platform extenstions on the WLL now needed for LO 5 car plan as well as Southern's 8 cars?

Yes or possibly even 6-car. I tihnk these are going ahead very shortly.

I agree too that the WLL service stops at too many stations north of Watford.

 

[Class86Fan]

Didn't the MKC service to Croydon terminate at Brighton before?

 

[MCR247]

Yeah but there is no longer paths

 

[NSE]

The idea of the Bedford service via Bletchley is just pointless. Milton Keynes works well because Virgin stop a Manchester, Birmingham and a Chester/Holyhead train every hour so connections can be made avoiding london. I think 2tph would work, and would be fairly well used, but I'm not sure if 8 cars is needed all day. I've been on a peak hour departure from MK (something like 7am) and it was very busy around the WLL, so it would benefit then.

I think its a bit of an odd service though, and will always be slow-ish, because it needs to stop lots on the BML to pick up people to take to the Watford-Hemel-MK area to connect to the WCML services, and then southbound to take WCML passengers and locals in the Hemel-Watford area to connect to BML and so on.

Personally, I'd run a South Croydon to Watford Junction train (all stops) and then somewere such as (possibly south of) Gatwick-East Croydon-Clapham-all WLL stops-Watford- then run it to Birmingham semi-fast and somewhere I guess Watford might work, turn it into a LM service (a la FCC/SE). That caters for locals with a stopper, two down the WLL and two trains to connect to at Watford.

But thats just my own stab at a possible solution

 

[MK Tom]

Is there no way to chip across before Clapham and be on the right side of the station?

 

[A-driver]

Is there no way to chip across before Clapham and be on the right side of the station?

If you mean get on to the slow lines to access the WLL from the fast lines then you would need to cross at Balham south. But I severly doubt there are enough gaps in service across 3 lines to allow this.

 

[MK Tom]

I meant before Clapham coming from MK. Get across before entering the station heading south. Did the 319s in Connex days cross over at Balham?