Mk3s 10661 & 12096 Present at Wolverton Works Today.

[Luivery]

I got word that These 2 Mk3 coaches were still present at Wolverton Works, and decided to go down to see if they were visible for this day. I arrived around 10:52am to see the resident shunter with an ex-EMR 156, before disappearing and returning with these 2 mk3 coaches.

The Virgin Trains one was 12096, which if I recall correctly, was involved in a shunting incident at Wembley.

The GNER one is 10661, which was a Mk3 Sleeper Converted into Day Saloon Concept Vehicle in December 1995. I have no context on why it has the GNER livery.

Certainly to have seen better days...

 

[CR165022]

Can only imagine 10661 got GNER colours as some sort of testbed for the livery before the whole fleet was repainted back then.

 

[Russel]

What was the idea behind the oval windows on the GNER conversion?

 

[43096]

Can only imagine 10661 got GNER colours as some sort of testbed for the livery before the whole fleet was repainted back then.

In part, but also because when GNER were lengthening their HST sets to 9 trailers, the original plan was to convert sleeper vehicles. In the end, Virgin off-leasing their fleet released plenty of HST trailers so the conversions didn't happen.

 

[cj_1985]

It was a plan to convert spare sleeper stock carriages into day stock carriages... this would have been the prototype.
The round windows... I can't explain... perhaps a styling choice?

GNER sought additional stock as they didnt have enough mk4 carriages, and there were no spare mk3 HST or LHCS Day stock available.... so they wanted to looking into whether sleeper stock could be converted into LHCS day carriages so that they could increase the number of rakes they had available. It was well reported at the time

 

[43096]

It was a plan to convert spare sleeper stock carriages into day stock carriages... this would have been the prototype.
The round windows... I can't explain... perhaps a styling choice?

GNER sought additional stock as they didnt have enough mk4 carriages, and there were no spare mk3 HST or LHCS Day stock available.... so they wanted to looking into whether sleeper stock could be converted into LHCS day carriages so that they could increase the number of rakes they had available. It was well reported at the time

It wasn’t to increase the number of rakes available, it was to lengthen their HST sets from 2+8 to 2+9.

 

[cj_1985]

It wasn’t to increase the number of rakes available, it was to lengthen their HST sets from 2+8 to 2+9.

Glad to be corrected. Can't remember any reference to HST... but it was more than a few years back

 

[sprinterguy]

Good lord, I didn't think that Mark 3 demonstrator conversion was still around - thought it had been cut up years ago. Thanks for sharing these photos. There's a photo on the following thread from almost exactly four years ago from when it was all shiny and newly repainted: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gner-mk3-lhcs.231198/

It was previously in Porterbrook purple, blue and white livery - the oval windows were definitely a mid-nineties stylistic choice. I feel sure that I've seen an interior photo that shows how they related to the internal layout, though can't find it at present. External photo of it when first converted on Flickr here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/8002550450/in/photostream/

 

[Russel]

It was previously in Porterbrook purple, blue and white livery - the oval windows were definitely a mid-nineties stylistic choice. I feel sure that I've seen an interior photo that shows how they related to the internal layout, though can't find it at present. External photo of it when first converted on Flickr here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/8002550450/in/photostream/

I've found some photos of the interior of 10661 on Facebook, the interior is totally stripped though, or never fitted out.

It shows as public so hopefully the link will work.

Link to Facebook MK3 Coach group

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've found some photos of the interior of 10661 on Facebook, the interior is totally stripped though, or never fitted out.

It did have seats when it was shown off at Railtex immediately after conversion.

 

[Russel]

It did have seats when it was shown off at Railtex immediately after conversion.

Interesting that they would strip it just to store it for 20 years.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting that they would strip it just to store it for 20 years.

It was only ever a concept demonstration and was too weak to be moved by rail as well - the structure of the Sleeper vehicles is very different from the day vehicles. Apparently if there had been a production conversion run, they would have had to do it very differently from what they did with 10661 as a result.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is this coach worth preserving?

 

[Omnishambles]

It was only ever a concept demonstration and was too weak to be moved by rail as well - the structure of the Sleeper vehicles is very different from the day vehicles. Apparently if there had been a production conversion run, they would have had to do it very differently from what they did with 10661 as a result.

Yes, I seem to recall a major reason for not continuing with more was the loss of crashworthiness and structural integrity following the refurb. Didn’t realise it was that weak it couldn‘t even travel by rail !

 

[Russel]

Is this coach worth preserving?

There isn't much left of it to preserve, the photos I've found of the interior suggest it's an empty shell and after being sat for the best part of 20 years is probably being held together by rust.

 

[43096]

Yes, I seem to recall a major reason for not continuing with more was the loss of crashworthiness and structural integrity following the refurb.

Which is an urban myth. The designs were all done with relevant structural elements taken account of - it was entirely feasible from an engineering point of view.

What killed the plan off - as I posted above - was the availability of HST trailers off lease from Virgin. Obviously that was a cheaper option.

 

[theblackwatch]

Which is an urban myth. The designs were all done with relevant structural elements taken account of - it was entirely feasible from an engineering point of view.

What killed the plan off - as I posted above - was the availability of HST trailers off lease from Virgin. Obviously that was a cheaper option.

That is interesting - 10661 was converted in 1995 and Sea Containers bought its Mk.3 Sleepers for the conversions in 1997. GNER had to wait another five years or so though before the ex Virgin coaches became available and in the meantime the Sleepers were shuffled between various sites before being (in the main) sent for scrap. Must dig out my pic of 10514 in GNER livery at Booths...

What is also interesting is that 10661 and 12096 have been moved out of the building they have been stored in for many years, along with various other 'relics' such as 65919 from 365526 ad InterCity sleeper 10578 which used to be at the Fire Services College at Moreton0in-Marsh.

 

[DBS92042]

What is also interesting is that 10661 and 12096 have been moved out of the building they have been stored in for many years, along with various other 'relics' such as 65919 from 365526 ad InterCity sleeper 10578 which used to be at the Fire Services College at Moreton0in-Marsh.

And the GWR livery demonstrator, 10656

 

[sad1e]

That is interesting - 10661 was converted in 1995 and Sea Containers bought its Mk.3 Sleepers for the conversions in 1997. GNER had to wait another five years or so though before the ex Virgin coaches became available and in the meantime the Sleepers were shuffled between various sites before being (in the main) sent for scrap. Must dig out my pic of 10514 in GNER livery at Booths...

What is also interesting is that 10661 and 12096 have been moved out of the building they have been stored in for many years, along with various other 'relics' such as 65919 from 365526 ad InterCity sleeper 10578 which used to be at the Fire Services College at Moreton0in-Marsh.

65919 still exists?
Thought that was scrapped circa 2019.

 

[theblackwatch]

And the GWR livery demonstrator, 10656

I've yet to discover a photo of this at Wolverton anywhere (not that I'm doubting it's there - it would just be nice to find a picture!). While looking for one, I did come across a thread started by you about it last year... https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mystery-mk3-sleeper-at-wolverton.290022/

65919 still exists?
Thought that was scrapped circa 2019.

It was definitely in the 'relics' shed in 2022 when some pictures were posted on Facebook.

 

[sad1e]

It was definitely in the 'relics' shed in 2022 when some pictures were posted on Facebook.

Do you have a link to these photos ? I can't seem to find them.

 

[CR165022]

Haven't found any photos of it specifically, but there's definitely something in NSE behind 10661 in this photo.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[DBS92042]

65919 still exists?
Thought that was scrapped circa 2019.

Unless its been moved/scrapped in the last few months, it was still at Wolverton with the aforementioned Mk3s until at least 2025

 

[sad1e]

Unless its been moved/scrapped in the last few months, it was still at Wolverton with the aforementioned Mk3s until at least 2025

Thanks , good to know.
Surprised 365526 isn't history by now.

 

[theblackwatch]

Do you have a link to these photos ? I can't seem to find them.

Try this thread - not the initial post bit scroll down through the comments and you should find a pic.

MK1. MK2. MK3. MK4. MK5. COACHES | A few more from Wolverton 13/09/22 | Facebook

A few more from Wolverton 13/09/22

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