Mk2 formations

[Slenderslug]

I am after info regards what kind of Mk2 air con went behind a class 86 and class 47 from around 1988 to 1996 from Birmingham to Stafford via Bescot and beyond.

I am wanting info regards

1. If they had one fan or twin fans
2 If they were Mk2F etc
3 How many TSO and FO etc were in the train. Thanks

 

[hexagon789]

I am after info regards what kind of Mk2 air con went behind a class 86 and class 47 from around 1988 to 1996 from Birmingham to Stafford via Bescot and beyond.

I am wanting info regards

1. If they had one fan or twin fans
2 If they were Mk2F etc
3 How many TSO and FO etc were in the train. Thanks

1. depends on the carriage Mark/type air-con/vehicle type
2. depends on the working. WCML Mk2 sets were mostly 2Fs though some 2Ds were used in the mid-80s; the XC sets were 2D and 2E. Rationalisation occurred going into the 1990s, sets were standardised, the WCML 2Ds were withdrawn, the XC sets became mixed 2E/F.
3. depends again on the working. WCML EBW (Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton) were often 4 FOs, Mk1 catering, 4 TSOs and a BSO or BG in the mid-80s, by the 1989 the usual ratio was 3 FO to 6 TSO. XC sets were either formed of two portions of TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO with a Mk1 buffet in the centre or one fullset with usually one or two FO and perhaps 7-9 TSO. Standardisation again occurred by the late-80s, from about 1990-92 sets were Mk1 BG, FO, Mk1 buffet, 5 or 6 TSO. The conversion of the Mk2F RFB saw sets standardised as 7 coaches of 2F RFB, 5 TSO (2E or F), Mk2E/F BSO - this latter formation lasted into Virgin Trains days.

 

[Slenderslug]

1. depends on the carriage Mark/type air-con/vehicle type
2. depends on the working. WCML Mk2 sets were mostly 2Fs though some 2Ds were used in the mid-80s; the XC sets were 2D and 2E. Rationalisation occurred going into the 1990s, sets were standardised, the WCML 2Ds were withdrawn, the XC sets became mixed 2E/F.
3. depends again on the working. WCML EBW (Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton) were often 4 FOs, Mk1 catering, 4 TSOs and a BSO or BG in the mid-80s, by the 1989 the usual ratio was 3 FO to 6 TSO. XC sets were either formed of two portions of TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO with a Mk1 buffet in the centre or one fullset with usually one or two FO and perhaps 7-9 TSO. Standardisation again occurred by the late-80s, from about 1990-92 sets were Mk1 BG, FO, Mk1 buffet, 5 or 6 TSO. The conversion of the Mk2F RFB saw sets standardised as 7 coaches of 2F RFB, 5 TSO (2E or F), Mk2E/F BSO - this latter formation lasted into Virgin Trains days.

Why did some coaches have one large fan and others twin fans. Thanks

 

[hexagon789]

Why did some coaches have one large fan and others twin fans. Thanks

Mostly simply, type of AC equipment.

The 2D & E did not have pure air-conditioning, they had pressure ventilation with an AC system added on.

The 2F had a completely new AC system designed in from scratch.

Fans:

Stones AC equipment FO, FK, TSO - two small fans

Stones AC equipment BFK, BSO - one small fan

Temperature Ltd AC equipment (all vehicle types) - one large fan


Furthermore, all 2D & E have a pressure ventilation cabinet mounted under the coach body. 2Fs lack this cabinet because they have no pressure ventilation system.

 

[Slenderslug]

Thanks for all the info but it has just left me confused. I just want to put a model train together with coaches behind a class 86 that would have been seen going between Birmingham and Stafford via Bescot. Also what coaches would have been behind a class 47 all between 1988 and 1995. Thanks

 

[Hadrian]

What is the significance of 'via Bescot'? Apart from diversions during engineering work or disruption, almost no trains between Birmingham New Street and Stafford/beyond went via Bescot. Normally they called at Wolverhampton, which, while possible via Bescot, was decidely unusual. Diversions off the Trent Valley line normally went (and still go) Stechford, Aston, Bescot and Bushbury or vice versa to avoid cluttering up Birmingham New Street.

 

[30907]

Thanks for all the info but it has just left me confused. I just want to put a model train together with coaches behind a class 86 that would have been seen going between Birmingham and Stafford via Bescot. Also what coaches would have been behind a class 47 all between 1988 and 1995. Thanks

A 47 would most likely have been heading a XC set as per hexagon789's last two sentences in post #2. They commonly worked through from the South, especially on Birmingham-Manchester-Scotland trains (not sure which years those ran).
An 86 by then would likewise have most likely been working a XC diagram.

As Hadrian has said, workings via Bescot were diversions.

 

[Rescars]

IIRC around 1980 nothing went between Wolverhampton and Bescot, except diversions when the Stour Valley line was blocked.

 

[Slenderslug]

I want to know what coaches went behind both class 47s and 86s regards large fans or twin fans. I need to know somI can model appropriate trains from 1988 to 1996. Thanks. Nobody is giving me the answer I need

 

[hexagon789]

I want to know what coaches went behind both class 47s and 86s regards large fans or twin fans. I need to know somI can model appropriate trains from 1988 to 1996. Thanks. Nobody is giving me the answer I need

I've already tried to explain that all types appeared; that there are 3 types of fan arrangements on Mk2 air-cons and the bit about Bescot has been explained by another member.

With the greatest of respect, without modifying your question I don't see what else I can add.

You put the era as 1988-96, I've explained that formations varied within that period and I put what options there were.

For anywhere in that general area, I put all the LMR Mk2 air-con formations.

Within that, the XC formations are probably the most relevant.

If you want simplicity the 1992-96 (and beyond) formation of 7 coaches is the most straightforward.

That is: Mk2F RFB, 5 TSO (2E or 2F), BSO (2E or F), both 47s and 86s hauled trains of this formation.

Mk2Fs all have Temperature Ltd air-con equipment, this has one large fan on all vehicle types.

Mk2Es all have Stones air-con equipment, this has two small fans on TSOs and FOs and one small fan on BSOs.

As I said though, I did explain all this within my earlier post.

 

[GusB]

I want to know what coaches went behind both class 47s and 86s regards large fans or twin fans. I need to know somI can model appropriate trains from 1988 to 1996. Thanks. Nobody is giving me the answer I need

For modelling purposes, does it really matter whether the coaches were Mk2D, E or F? It's only serious rivet-counters who would really notice such differences!

The only way you'll really be able to find out is to find a source that lists each train with the relevant carriage numbers. @hexagon789 has already supplied far more information regarding the type of aircon than most people would be able to!

 

[hexagon789]

For modelling purposes, does it really matter whether the coaches were Mk2D, E or F? It's only serious rivet-counters who would really notice such differences!

The only way you'll really be able to find out is to find a source that lists each train with the relevant carriage numbers. @hexagon789 has already supplied far more information regarding the type of aircon than most people would be able to!

Visibly, I always think the most noticeable difference is that Mk2D TSOs have the lavatories the same side, E & F have them diagonally opposite. Firsts have them same side regardless.

Outside of that, as you say - few would really notice anything else.

 

[Slenderslug]

I've already tried to explain that all types appeared; that there are 3 types of fan arrangements on Mk2 air-cons and the bit about Bescot has been explained by another member.

With the greatest of respect, without modifying your question I don't see what else I can add.

You put the era as 1988-96, I've explained that formations varied within that period and I put what options there were.

For anywhere in that general area, I put all the LMR Mk2 air-con formations.

Within that, the XC formations are probably the most relevant.

If you want simplicity the 1992-96 (and beyond) formation of 7 coaches is the most straightforward.

That is: Mk2F RFB, 5 TSO (2E or 2F), BSO (2E or F), both 47s and 86s hauled trains of this formation.

Mk2Fs all have Temperature Ltd air-con equipment, this has one large fan on all vehicle types.

Mk2Es all have Stones air-con equipment, this has two small fans on TSOs and FOs and one small fan on BSOs.

As I said though, I did explain all this within my earlier post.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2022 ==

I've already tried to explain that all types appeared; that there are 3 types of fan arrangements on Mk2 air-cons and the bit about Bescot has been explained by another member.

With the greatest of respect, without modifying your question I don't see what else I can add.

You put the era as 1988-96, I've explained that formations varied within that period and I put what options there were.

For anywhere in that general area, I put all the LMR Mk2 air-con formations.

Within that, the XC formations are probably the most relevant.

If you want simplicity the 1992-96 (and beyond) formation of 7 coaches is the most straightforward.

That is: Mk2F RFB, 5 TSO (2E or 2F), BSO (2E or F), both 47s and 86s hauled trains of this formation.

Mk2Fs all have Temperature Ltd air-con equipment, this has one large fan on all vehicle types.

Mk2Es all have Stones air-con equipment, this has two small fans on TSOs and FOs and one small fan on BSOs.

As I said though, I did explain al

That’s the answer I needed so thank you very much for your help