Mk2 DBSOs

[55018ballymoss]

A thought struck me yesterday as 3Z73 went past on a positioning move from Derby RTC to Carlisle, and apologies if this has been discussed to death already, but what happened to all of the Mk2 DBSOs?
With the shortage of available DMUs the idea of short rakes of Mk2s, maybe three or four saloons with a DBSO, might be a cost effective short term solution as it would only require one loco.
So, hopefully someone can help explain what happened. I know Network Rail possess a few for the Measurement Trains, but surely there are others still in use, or available somewhere?

 

[Michael.Y]

Wikipedia is your friend - a full list of all 13 left and when they were withdrawn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBSO

 

[dk1]

They where awful things to drive really. Draughty, noisy & uncomfortable. Network a Rail I think has spent some money upgrading the driving compartment. Will be interesting to see if they do return to the Anglia Region this Summer.

 

[matt]

Wikipedia is your friend - a full list of all 13 left and when they were withdrawn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBSO

9707, 9705 and 9713 are now at Derby.

 

[Boothby97]

9707, 9705 and 9713 are now at Derby.

And 9711 at Tyseley

 

[Michael.Y]

Get editing then.

 

[fgwrich]

Ah yes, including the unfortunately infamous DBSO 9712. Owned by Riviera and used by Pathfinder Tours for a while on Riviera's ''The Anglian'' rake before it was sold to NI Railways to hoped to used it on the Gatwick set with either 111 / 112 (when not in IE) or 113. It was then fully overhauled and given the required wider bogies, modified for use and subsequently stored as NI Railways decided not to use the Gatwicks anymore. Since then it's remained stored in York Road with it's future as about as certain as the majority of the rest of the stored UK Fleet. What will happen to most of the left over UK Fleet remains to be seen, but I can't sadly see many more DBSOs returning - most of them have sat outside for the past 10 years and not in a good state, both internally or externally, with a fair amount of 'Mk2' rust emerging around corners and sides of some of them. Not forgetting the condition of them in Anglian service too!

Network Rails do have a slightly improved cab - for a start they removed and sealed up what was left of the original Mk2 BSO corridor door and certainly fitted some good powerful heaters! Some of the cab dials have been replaced too and having been able to compare Anglia to Network Rails, they certainly do show signs of money well spent in the cab improvements.

 

[55018ballymoss]

Very many thanks for all the replies.
So, potentially six left, but would require a lot of work to make them feasible again. Looks like top and tailed locos would be cheaper short term.

 

[zn1]

I remember the big deal intercity eastern made about the dbsos for push pull, they went for rebuild at devonport...lots of publicity about them...as a passenger you were banged about when they were driven from. no fault of driver, i think the 86's really hated talking to a remote control cab, they preferred their driver in their cab....the front end looked rubbish also, a half done job, now network have them, they look hell of a lot better......and with diesels being used with them alot smoother i suspect from a crewing point of view..

The mk3 & 4 DVTS Were built for purpose, not conversions....look alot sexier and the mk3's should all still be in traffic with either NR, the great eastern etc....

just my opinion

there are few mk3 dvts still around for use are there not

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst there are Mrk3 DVTs around and out os use, the DBSOs have passenger accomodation, something the DVTs lack.

 

[fgwrich]

Whilst there are Mrk3 DVTs around and out os use, the DBSOs have passenger accomodation, something the DVTs lack.

And most of the spare ones in store are now owned by DB.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Very many thanks for all the replies.
So, potentially six left, but would require a lot of work to make them feasible again. Looks like top and tailed locos would be cheaper short term.

Which are the 6?
9705/07 are DRS owned at RVEL
9704/09/10 are BARS owned (were for Devon & Cornwall work) at Eastleigh Works
9713 is RVEL owned - presumably for Network Rail
9711 is at Tyseley (Birmingham Railway Museum)
Brian

 

[Michael.Y]

Whilst there are Mrk3 DVTs around and out os use, the DBSOs have passenger accomodation, something the DVTs lack.

The plus side being they have acres of luggage space, which is a must on InterCity trains nowadays.

zn1 - There's at least 3? Mk3 DVTs working the Gerald set for ATW / WG, as well as those working the Chilterns.

 

[Boothby97]

The Mark 3 DVT fleet consists of;
Stored
82101 - DRS owned at Barrow Hill
82106/110/113/116/120/122/123/137/138/141/148/150 - DBS owned, at Long Marston
82111 - Network Rail owned, at Loughborough Brush
82115 - Network Rail owned, at Wolverton Works
82125/140 - Porterbrook owned, at Long Marston

Active
82102/103/105/107/112/114/118/121/127/132/133/136/139/143/152 - Porterbrook owned, in use with Great Anglia
82124/129/145 - Network Rail owned, for test train use (based at Derby RTC, but don't see much use)
82126 - Porterbrook owned, in use with Virgin Trains
82146 - DBS owned, used as part of DB Managers train, based at Toton
82301-305/309 - DBS owned, in use with Chiltern (formerly 82117/151/135/130/134/104)
82306-308 - DBS owned, in use with Arriva Trains Wales (formerly 82144/131/108)

 

[Brian Aylott]

The Mark 3 DVT fleet consists of;
Stored
82101 - DRS owned at Barrow Hill
82106/110/113/116/120/122/123/137/138/141/148/150 - DBS owned, at Long Marston
82111 - Network Rail owned, at Loughborough Brush
82115 - Network Rail owned, at Wolverton Works
82125/140 - Porterbrook owned, at Long Marston

Active
82102/103/105/107/112/114/118/121/127/132/133/136/139/143/152 - Porterbrook owned, in use with Great Anglia
82124/129/145 - Network Rail owned, for test train use (based at Derby RTC, but don't see much use)
82126 - Porterbrook owned, in use with Virgin Trains
82146 - DBS owned, used as part of DB Managers train, based at Toton
82301-305/309 - DBS owned, in use with Chiltern (formerly 82117/151/135/130/134/104)
82306-308 - DBS owned, in use with Arriva Trains Wales (formerly 82144/131/108)

Agree with this although believe DBS should be Arriva (DBR)
Brian

 

[Yew]

Remember that Porterbrook(?) suggested that the Mk3 DVT's could be converted to passenger accommodation if required (In their proposals for the GA mk3's IIRC)

 

[DarloRich]

They where awful things to drive really. Draughty, noisy & uncomfortable. Network a Rail I think has spent some money upgrading the driving compartment. Will be interesting to see if they do return to the Anglia Region this Summer.

They also have a snazzy messing facility in the former passenger accommodation section

 

[90sWereBetter]

One of them, 9710, actually made it into ONE colours in 2004. Was this DBSO in dire need of a repaint and with the DVTs still not ready for service, the decision was taken to put it into the new livery, or something like that?

 

[dosxuk]

One of them, 9710, actually made it into ONE colours in 2004. Was this DBSO in dire need of a repaint and with the DVTs still not ready for service, the decision was taken to put it into the new livery, or something like that?

It was still in Intercity colours underneath the vinyl.

 

[SansPareil]

Class 442 DTSs would make good driving trailers. Refreshed 442s, stripped of their electrical gear mixed with some of the HST trailers displaced by the IEP programme could give you up to 48 push pull sets of varying length. Couple them up to some class 67/68/88s and use them on suitable routes and you could displace a lot of DMUs to reinforce other services, improve frequencies, and/or get rid of 142s. Would be a stop gap for ten to fifteen years whilst electrification comes to fruition, but given there is very little desire for new DMU orders it could be an economically and operationally effective solution for maintaining the growth in passenger demand.

 

[BurtonM]

Goes without saying, of course, that 9706 is dead and has been for some time.

 

[dk1]

One of them, 9710, actually made it into ONE colours in 2004. Was this DBSO in dire need of a repaint and with the DVTs still not ready for service, the decision was taken to put it into the new livery, or something like that?

That DBSO was hastily repainted at Ilford just before the launch of 'one' the following day in case the DVT failed. Unfortunately it had arrived at Ilford wrong turned & no Liverpool St driver was available to turn it on the High Meads loop. Myself & a Shunter where sent up overnight with 2x86s to top&tail it to Manningtree & turn it on the triangle via Mistley then back to Ilford. It ended up in the earlier darker petrol blue so never looked right. I just remember being hugely disappointed & horrified by the livery & that opinion never changed.

 

[Defiance149]

That DBSO was hastily repainted at Ilford just before the launch of 'one' the following day in case the DVT failed.

IIRC, it was more that it was very touch and go as to whether the DVT would get route clearance in time for the launch train, so the DBSO was done as a back-up. In the event, the use of the DVT was approved just in time.

 

[nxea321446]

Which are the 6?
9705/07 are DRS owned at RVEL
9704/09/10 are BARS owned (were for Devon & Cornwall work) at Eastleigh Works
9713 is RVEL owned - presumably for Network Rail
9711 is at Tyseley (Birmingham Railway Museum)
Brian

i was told that 9713 had been preserved for use on the mid norfolk railway

 

[Defiance149]

i was told that 9713 had been preserved for use on the mid norfolk railway

Was the case at one time but no longer.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Class 442 DTSs would make good driving trailers. Refreshed 442s, stripped of their electrical gear mixed with some of the HST trailers displaced by the IEP programme could give you up to 48 push pull sets of varying length. Couple them up to some class 67/68/88s and use them on suitable routes and you could displace a lot of DMUs to reinforce other services, improve frequencies, and/or get rid of 142s. Would be a stop gap for ten to fifteen years whilst electrification comes to fruition, but given there is very little desire for new DMU orders it could be an economically and operationally effective solution for maintaining the growth in passenger demand.

Are there plans for new GatEx stock? If not, I suspect the 442s will remain there.

 

[theblackwatch]

Ah yes, including the unfortunately infamous DBSO 9712. Owned by Riviera and used by Pathfinder Tours for a while on Riviera's ''The Anglian'' rake before it was sold to NI Railways to hoped to used it on the Gatwick set with either 111 / 112 (when not in IE) or 113. It was then fully overhauled and given the required wider bogies, modified for use and subsequently stored as NI Railways decided not to use the Gatwicks anymore. Since then it's remained stored in York Road with it's future as about as certain as the majority of the rest of the stored UK Fleet. What will happen to most of the left over UK Fleet remains to be seen, but I can't sadly see many more DBSOs returning - most of them have sat outside for the past 10 years and not in a good state, both internally or externally, with a fair amount of 'Mk2' rust emerging around corners and sides of some of them. Not forgetting the condition of them in Anglian service too!

The one used by Riviera (and leased from HSBC Rail/Eversholt) was actually 9713, which later went back to the leasing company and, as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, is now RVEL's at Derby. It's a shame NIR decided not to use 9712 in the end - I'm not sure it even did one revenue earning trip.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are there plans for new GatEx stock? If not, I suspect the 442s will remain there.

In the TGSN franchise Invitiation to Tender document, bidders are encouraged to put forward proposals that will "maintain and, where practicable, enhance the “Gatwick Express” brand", so change under the new franchise is quite possible.

85 of the class 442 vehicles (17 units) are covered by a section 54 agreement until 12th December 2015.

 

[SansPareil]

Are there plans for new GatEx stock? If not, I suspect the 442s will remain there.

I'm not aware of any specific plans, but it's widely acknowledged that the 442s are not ideally suited to the role given their narrow doorways/vestibules and inadequate luggage space, along with propensity to self-immolate.

If still available perhaps a variation of the Electrostar, optimised for Gatwick work, would make a suitable replacement in the medium term future. I'm sure a common fleet would have operational advantages for whoever takes over.

It remains to be seen as to what will happen to the Gatwick Express brand once the integrated franchise is launched, the forthcoming Davies Commission report on airport expansion will undoubtedly influence decisions.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Class 442 DTSs would make good driving trailers. Refreshed 442s, stripped of their electrical gear mixed with some of the HST trailers displaced by the IEP programme could give you up to 48 push pull sets of varying length. Couple them up to some class 67/68/88s and use them on suitable routes and you could displace a lot of DMUs to reinforce other services, improve frequencies, and/or get rid of 142s. Would be a stop gap for ten to fifteen years whilst electrification comes to fruition, but given there is very little desire for new DMU orders it could be an economically and operationally effective solution for maintaining the growth in passenger demand.

Or stick them in the middle of 'Chiltern-ised' HST sets on Cornish services, allowing them to divide/join at Exeter or Newton Abbot (for Penzance/Torbay) or in Summer at Par or Plymouth (for Penzance/Newquay). The slab-fronts wouldn't be an issue at that end of the line because of linespeeds, though I suppose it'd be awkward if the wrong portion arrived first on 'Up' services!