Mk1 toilets and signs stating "do not flush in stations"

[frankmoh]

On the several Mk1 Lavatory carriages I have been in, they all say "DO NOT FLUSH IN STATIONS".

What terrible event led to this warning being affixed? And who thought it was a good idea to dump poo straight onto the permanent way?

 

[RGM654]

On the several Mk1 Lavatory carriages I have been in, they all say "DO NOT FLUSH IN STATIONS".

What terrible event led to this warning being affixed? And who thought it was a good idea to dump poo straight onto the permanent way?

I was told that the reason on Vintage Trains' coaches is that the electric pump for the retention toilets draws a lot of power, which is not good when the train is stationary and the dynamos(?) are not generating power to keep the batteries topped up.

 

[The exile]

On the several Mk1 Lavatory carriages I have been in, they all say "DO NOT FLUSH IN STATIONS".

What terrible event led to this warning being affixed? And who thought it was a good idea to dump poo straight onto the permanent way?

Are you old enough to remember what the track bed at termini used to look like? Especially London termini that were frequented by sleepers?
As for who thought it was a good idea - probably no-one, but there was no alternative other than no toilet provision at all.

 

[Sun Chariot]

On the several Mk1 Lavatory carriages I have been in, they all say "DO NOT FLUSH IN STATIONS".

What terrible event led to this warning being affixed? And who thought it was a good idea to dump poo straight onto the permanent way?

Until 1980s introduction of toilet waste water retention tanks, the sink water and toilet's contents were literally dumped out onto the railway track.

Sprinters and Pacers had retention tanks from new, as did Mk3 sleeping cars. I think (and I'm sure someone will know) the Mk3 daytime carriages when first built, lacked retention tanks; they were retro-fitted in the 1980s.

The sight and smell of, well, that was very apparent in warm weather at stations where carriages waited and people were in them.

I myself am guilty of contributing to Stirling station's "pile in the four foot"! In August 1990 I boarded an Inverness bound train; but our locomotive - 47541 - had arrived on fire. So our train sat in the station for longer than I could hold on... Mk1 and Mk2b carriages made up our train. In I went, I flushed, it landed, it bubbled on the sleepers...

 

[The exile]

I myself am guilty of contributing to Stirling station's "pile in the four foot"! In August 1988 I boarded an Inverness bound train; but our locomotive - 47541 - had arrived on fire. So our train sat in the station for longer than I could hold on... Mk1 and Mk2b carriages made up our train. I went, I flushed, it went, it landed.

At least in the UK you still had control (delay flushing until moving again) unlike many continental trains with only a flap (if that) and an open pipe.

 

[hexagon789]

Sprinters and Pacers had retention tanks from new, as did Mk3 sleeping cars. I think (and I'm sure someone will know) the Mk3 daytime carriages when first built, lacked retention tanks; they were retro-fitted in the 1980s

No they didn't. Only 159s had tanks from new, and in their case that was only because they were fitted on conversion from 158 to 159.

None of the Pacer or other Sprinter classes had them from new.

Mk3 HST trailers and LHCS day coaches lacked tanks still in 2019.

Mk4s had them from new.

 

[Sun Chariot]

At least in the UK you still had control (delay flushing until moving again) unlike many continental trains with only a flap (if that) and an open pipe.

How did that option work? I only ever saw the rubberised floor stud and the above-pan button. Both deposited straight away.

Re: open pipe - I remember flushing on a Russian carriage and my alarm at seeing the speeding track appear beneath the toilet bowl...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==

No they didn't. Only 159s had tanks from new, and in their case that was only because they were fitted on conversion from 158 to 159.

None of the Pacer or other Sprinter classes had them from new.

Mk3 HST trailers and LHCS day coaches lacked tanks still in 2019.

Mk4s had them from new.

Crumbs. I thought things progressed faster than that.
I must be mistaken about the passage (so to speak) I read regarding retention tanks, years ago in literature when the 150s were introduced.

 

[The exile]

No they didn't. Only 159s had tanks from new, and in their case that was only because they were fitted on conversion from 158 to 159.

None of the Pacer or other Sprinter classes had them from new.

Mk3 HST trailers and LHCS day coaches lacked tanks still in 2019.

Mk4s had them from new.

I remember that the design of the bowl on the 158s coupled with the motion of the carriage set up wave patterns that threatened to slop everything onto the floor (never actually saw it happen, but it looked alarmingly as if it would).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2025 ==

How did that option work? I only ever saw the rubberised floor stud and the above-pan button. Both deposited straight away.

Indeed, but you could delay flushing until the train was moving - not an option with the open pipe.

 

[Western Gaffer]

There was quite a lot of discussion about the end of the pre-CET era in a thread about five years ago:

RMT announcement regarding sewage on tracks

Just reading the RMT press release about trains depositing sewage in the tracks. Am I missing something of are the 8 routes mentioned not named? https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-reveals-the-eight-rail-routes-still-dumping-raw-sewage/ RMT reveals the eight rail routes still dumping raw sewage...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Sun Chariot]

Indeed, but you could delay flushing until the train was moving - not an option with the open pipe.

Not with a train stood at Stirling for more than two hours and a queue of passengers wanting to use the toilets!

 

[The exile]

Not with a train stood at Stirling for more than two hours and a queue of passengers wanting to use the toilets!

Indeed - I was thinking of the station stop that catches you by surprise in mid-flow, as it were.

 

[duffield]

At least in the UK you still had control (delay flushing until moving again) unlike many continental trains with only a flap (if that) and an open pipe.

And you can sample the delights of the open pipe system to this very day by travelling on the Nene Valley Railway's superb Swedish railcar (and trailer).

I witnessed a mother taking her child to that toilet, and three seconds later she came out with a very alarmed expression, telling the child "We'll go at the station!". I'm not sure what she thought would happen, the child was far too big to fit down the pipe!

 

[yorksrob]

"Where have all the tomato plants gone", as the song might have said.

 

[Helvellyn]

A number of Mark 1 Sleepers were fitted with retention tanks, mainly East Coast ones. From RCTS coaching stock books of the early 1980s it also looks like all Royal Train vehicles had retention tanks but I wonder if that was for security as much as anything else.

No they didn't. Only 159s had tanks from new, and in their case that was only because they were fitted on conversion from 158 to 159.

I think when South West Trains got the 158/8 and 159/1 units the only way they could fit compatible retention tanks was to reverse engineer the design by removing one from a 159/0 and literally cutting it open because there were no blueprints!

 

[hexagon789]

I think when South West Trains got the 158/8 and 159/1 units the only way they could fit compatible retention tanks was to reverse engineer the design by removing one from a 159/0 and literally cutting it open because there were no blueprints!

I've heard that as well!

 

[PeterC]

I can remember seeing straight down to the track when flushing the loo on a British train many decades ago. Probably the late 60s or 70s. I certainly didn't see it as normal even then but wasn't an aficionado of rolling stock so had no idea of the type of carriage.

 

[D6130]

"Where have all the tomato plants gone", as the song might have said.

Yep! The sidings at Neville Hill depot - and no doubt other depots too - used to have a healthy (?) crop of tomato plants in the four foot from flushing out the HST toilets. A useful (?) by-product of selling BLT sandwiches in the buffet cars!

 

[The exile]

A number of Mark 1 Sleepers were fitted with retention tanks, mainly East Coast ones. From RCTS coaching stock books of the early 1980s it also looks like all Royal Train vehicles had retention tanks but I wonder if that was for security as much as anything else.

Decorum as well, I should imagine, as well as the fact that they were predictably going to be occupied when stationary for longer periods even than sleeping cars. Doubt the “royal wee” would have been a problem - but anything more substantial might have been unseemly.

 

[pdeaves]

Some gullible people believe(d) this could happen if the flush was in the wrong place:

(image: train in flood water)

 

[Rab Smith]

When I was starting out on my railway career I was a lookout on the ECML. The fine mist that sometimes covered you as an HST flew past at 100mph was not a nice experience as you knew where it was coming from.
All you could do was turn your back and hope someone hadn't pulled the flush just as they passed you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was starting out on my railway career I was a lookout on the ECML. The fine mist that sometimes covered you as an HST flew past at 100mph was not a nice experience as you knew where it was coming from.
All you could do was turn your back and hope someone hadn't pulled the flush just as they passed you!

I was once driving under the bridge on Watling Street at Denbigh Hall (the one where the original terminus of the London and Birmingham Railway was located) as a train of Mk3 coaches passed over and heard a dull thud on top of the car. When I got out I found there was, shall we say, a well formed piece of toilet waste complete with paper sitting there. Yuck.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I was once driving under the bridge on Watling Street at Denbigh Hall (the one where the original terminus of the London and Birmingham Railway was located) as a train of Mk3 coaches passed over and heard a dull thud on top of the car. When I got out I found there was, shall we say, a well formed piece of toilet waste complete with paper sitting there. Yuck.

Now I can't unsee that! I shall never again complain about the Solent's gulls...

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I wonder if the reason for the do not flush whilst in the station requirement was fully understood by passengers, or maybe it is now just ingrained in passengers of a certain age. I say this as a few years ago travelling on a Pendelino that at the time had an extended stop at Wolverhampton, I heard someone say they were going to the toilet only to be told by an older travelling companion that they couldn't as we were at a station.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yep! The sidings at Neville Hill depot - and no doubt other depots too - used to have a healthy (?) crop of tomato plants in the four foot from flushing out the HST toilets. A useful (?) by-product of selling BLT sandwiches in the buffet cars!

Did the crop find its way back into those sandwiches, to complete the cycle?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Did the crop find its way back into those sandwiches, to complete the cycle?

Crop? Or, another word with one letter different....

 

[norbitonflyer]

I wonder if the reason for the do not flush whilst in the station requirement was fully understood by passengers, or maybe it is now just ingrained in passengers of a certain age.

There is the song (sung to the tune of Dvorak's "Humoresque") which describes various things one should or should not do on a train, mainly involving the misuse of the lavatory. The Internet has various versions but I can't find the words I'm familiar with. All versions are somewhat scatological so I'm hesitant to post them on here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2025 ==

Crop? Or, another word with one letter different....

Hopefully only the tomatoes, and not the natural fertiliser deposited with the seeds.

 

[The exile]

There is the song (sung to the tune of Dvorak's "Humoresque") which describes various things one should or should not do on a train, mainly involving the misuse of the lavatory. The Internet has various versions but I can't find the words I'm familiar with. All versions are somewhat scatological so I'm hesitant to post them on here.

You mean the one that starts “Gentlemen will please refrain from using toilet while the train is standing at a station on the line”? No idea how it continues…

 

[Devonian]

There is (I kid you not) currently an exhibition in the Nuremberg railway museum featuring the devlopment of railway lavatories (https://dbmuseum.de/en/underpressure) which makes an interesting point that it was air pressure caused by high-speed trains in tunnels that drove the switch to retention tanks, as open WC pipes caused (at best) pressure changes in the carriages or (at worst) back-flow up the WC drains. That's probably one reason why the APT was one of the first trains to have contained lavatories in the UK.

The move to pressure-sealed trains forced the use of retention tanks, which in turn encouraged low-water systems such as the recirculating chemical closets on the APT and first-gen Eurostar, pneumatic WCs on the 159s or the modern vacuum systems: otherwise not only do you have to empty them very frequently but there's a gradual but significant shift in centre of gravity as water passes from overhead freshwater tanks to underframe septic tanks which affects the dynamics of the train.

 

[Tester]

I can remember seeing straight down to the track when flushing the loo on a British train many decades ago. Probably the late 60s or 70s. I certainly didn't see it as normal even then but wasn't an aficionado of rolling stock so had no idea of the type of carriage.

That was certainly the case with ex-Southern Railway stock, e.g. 2-BIL. I'm sure there were others elsewhere of similar vintage.

I think the concept of the water filled trap may have come in with Mk.1 stock - others with more knowledge may be able to confirm.

Whilst perhaps aesthetically less pleasing, the absence of trap has the big advantage of being virtually impossible to block, and is in fact preferable in the event of lack of water (far from unheard of). I cannot recall having seen a trap on any mainland European railway.

I travelled on the preserved 2-BIL in 1991, but have no recollection of checking the toilet then!

 

[The exile]

Whilst perhaps aesthetically less pleasing, the absence of trap has the big advantage of being virtually impossible to block, and is in fact preferable in the event of lack of water (far from unheard of). I cannot recall having seen a trap on any mainland European railway.

Certainly not impossible to block - but it’s quite a remarkable feat of nature! Apologies to anyone eating lunch…