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Mk1 coach lighting query
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Islineclear3_1
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You have to be a bit more specific as different legacy railway companies used different lighting.
Typically the light bulbs were nothing powerful - 15W or even less. The Mk1 coaches usually had 24V electrical systems, using a dynamo to charge lead acid batteries. There were changes in later Mk1 designs because they were in production for a long period and technology evolved. I think there were two light fittings per compartment, plus a few in the corridors of course. I don't know the spacing of light fittings in corridors or open coaches.
There were also reading lamps above the seats in first class compartments. IIRC two each side shared by three seats - plus two ceiling bulbs per compartment. There was also a dimmer switch (dim or dimmer!) above each compartment door.
On a MK1 TSO (Tourist Second Open) there were 7x60 watts in the main saloon, 4 in the Non smoking end and 3 in the smoking end due to the additional partition. Above each main window there were 2x15w. At the lavatory end there were 1x15w in each lavatory, and 3x15w in the vestibule at that end. The other two vestibules had 2x15w each.
Total 7x60w = 420w and 9x15w =135w ie 555watts. The over window lights could be separately switched from two switches under the through lighting switch but could only be on when the main lights were on and would add 480w so a total of 1,035watts, about 43 Amps at 24Volts.
Total 7x60w = 420w and 9x15w =135w ie 555watts. The over window lights could be separately switched from two switches under the through lighting switch but could only be on when the main lights were on and would add 480w so a total of 1,035watts, about 43 Amps at 24Volts.
I measured 28.4V in the socket of a reading light in a Mk 1 compartment once. This would be consistent with a 24V lead-acid plus dynamo system in good condition.
Can't remember what wattage was marked on the bulb, but I think it was probably 25W, which seems about right comparing its brightness with a standard 21W car brake light bulb and noting that the BR bulb operates at a lower filament temperature to improve longevity. I knew that anyway it was way over what I wanted to draw, so I wasn't really interested in the figure; it was the voltage measurement that I needed.
The light bulbs had non-standard bayonet bases with 3 bayonet prongs instead of the usual 2. Presumably this was to put passengers off taking them home for domestic use, though I would have thought sticking to a standard base and letting them experience the explosion would be more effective.
Can't remember what wattage was marked on the bulb, but I think it was probably 25W, which seems about right comparing its brightness with a standard 21W car brake light bulb and noting that the BR bulb operates at a lower filament temperature to improve longevity. I knew that anyway it was way over what I wanted to draw, so I wasn't really interested in the figure; it was the voltage measurement that I needed.
The light bulbs had non-standard bayonet bases with 3 bayonet prongs instead of the usual 2. Presumably this was to put passengers off taking them home for domestic use, though I would have thought sticking to a standard base and letting them experience the explosion would be more effective.
Second class compartments in Mark 1 side corridor coaches had reading lamps and dimmer switches too, at least before some of them were refurbished or facelifted in the 1980s (when all compartments got fluorescent lighting and 2nd class compartments got wide mirrors on one side and lost their reading lamps, and the same was done to some 1st class compartments too).
In the earlier build Mark 1s the reading lamps had beaker shaped lampshades (which were attached to the lamp bulb fitting sideways on), and the later build ones had wine glass/egg cup shaped lampshades (which the lamp above the mirror in the toilets in all Mark 1 coaches also had). After their 1980s refurbishment, some 1st class compartments got Southern Region CIG/VEP EMU style reading lamps with round bowl shaped lampshades.
What about non-corridor compartments? And what about Mark 1 restaurant/buffet/kitchen cars and sleeping cars?
Me and 2 mates travelled in a Mk corridor coach from Crewe to Bangor overnight. The reading light were off and the dim/bright switch was on dim. But we wanted less light. so we took a bulb out. But the other one became brighter. So I assume the 2 bulbs were in parallel. And each compartment had its 2 bulbs in separate circuits. No idea how the dim/bright switch worked.
This might help someone worked out how the circuits were organised.
We put the bulb back - but we were 18!
This might help someone worked out how the circuits were organised.
We put the bulb back - but we were 18!
There are some decent photos here if you scroll down. From memory those used in compos on the ECML had a little glass open bottom globe on a plastic wall mount with a toggle switch underneath it.
gwsrcarriageandwagon.blogspot.com
Evolution - a survey of our MK 1 coach interiors
Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway GWSR Carriage and Wagon Blog
gwsrcarriageandwagon.blogspot.com
I am struggling to recall, but I think the lighting in kitchens and buffets (behind the counter) relied just on normal ceiling mounted bulbs. The switches for these were in the kitchen. There may have been additional shelving lighting in the back-of-counter fittings in the buffet. There was no additional lighting apart from the ceiling fittings in service pantries or staff compartments. There were ceiling mounted extraction fans in kitchens. Vestibule and corridors were lit in the same way as other Mark 1 stock. Strip lights made an appearance in some RBRs, but only in passenger areas I think. I am sure no strip lights ever appeared in a RK.
There's a good 1950s colour publicity photo of a buffet counter area at the Flickr link below:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/11626930424
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/11626930424
Helvellyn
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I think that's the prototype Restaurant Kitchen Buffet (RKB) 1546, which had that angular unit in the middle area between the emergency end doors and vestibule gangway. The production RKBs had a smaller circular style shelf unit.
Certainly looks like a prototype. As Helvellyn says, the production RKBs just had a slightly oval shelf attached to a floor-to-ceiling pole.The ceiling profile and lighting looks more complicated than the production vehicles too. Also, there doesn't appear to be a shutter to close the buffet, but maybe the shutters came later. It all looks very splendid - especially all those bottles of beer!
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Elecman
Established Member
The finger voltage regulators on Mk1s were a pain to set up correctly
satisnek
Member
This sounds intriguing as well as highly dubious. Let me guess - you wanted to run your ghetto blaster, using its 12V DC power input, from the lamp socket?
To the best of my knowledge, the dimmer is simply a resistance in series with the two lamps in parallel. So yes, if you remove one lamp then the other will glow brighter and the dim/bright switch will have less effect. You'll notice that today the dim/bright switch has no effect at all on the SVR's coaches with LED lamps. That Ohm's Law for you. As well as the fact that low voltage DC LED lamps have a built-in voltage regulator enabling them to run from anything between 10V and 30V.
This sounds intriguing as well as highly dubious. Let me guess - you wanted to run your ghetto blaster, using its 12V DC power input, from the lamp socket?
Got it in one
so I needed to know what kind of input to make a voltage regulator to handle.Greybeard33
Established Member
From my observations as a passenger, the dynamo system appeared to have a two stage switching arrangement. Moving away from a stand, the lights suddenly dimmed as they were switched from the batteries to the dynamo. Then they gradually got brighter as the voltage rose with increasing speed. Finally they dimmed slightly again, as the batteries were switched back in circuit to charge from the dynamo.
I guess this arrangement minimised the drain on the batteries when running at low speed.
Elecman
Established Member
Google Wolverton Lighting System, gives an excellent overview of how the system and regulators worked but you need the wiring diagram to fully understand it.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Thanks, interesting! There are several versions of the description of the Wolverton Lighting System online, but I found that the clearest schematic was at https://lmsca.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/LMSCAWOLV.pdf.
An ingenious system, but fiendishly complicated! I see that the stepped dimming/brightening of the lights as the carriage speed changes is in fact caused by two series resistors being switched in and out of circuit. This avoids exposing the bulbs to the full battery charge voltage, thereby prolonging filament life.
During the late 70s I travelled with my parents on a number of railtours organised by the LNER Society which always had a motley collection of Mk1s (including one trip when we found ourselves on the first-built FO M3000). Once we were on a coach which had something wrong with the batteries as it was always in darkness when stationary but I clearly remember the gradual stepped brightening of the lights as it started moving and gathered speed. Now I understand why that was happening!
In terms of the Mark 1 sleeping cars, from the various interior photos of them that I've seen, each compartment originally had two ceiling lights with cone-shaped lampshades just like standard Mark 1 coach vestibule lights.
Most if not all Mark 1 Sleepers were refurbished I think sometime in the 1970s (see also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mark-1-sleeping-car-refurbishment.225374/) and as part of the refurbishment programme I believe that the 1st class Sleepers got lowered ceilings with one larger ceiling light with a round shade instead of the two smaller lights but I think the 2nd class compartments kept their original ceilings and lights.
Each berth also had an individual reading lamp, but they had frosted glass lampshades that fully covered the bulb unlike ordinary Mark 1 compartments. I believe that some Mark 1 Sleepers latterly had fluorescent berth lights installed in place of the tungsten ones, and there was also a tungsten strip light above the long mirror.
Mark 3 Sleepers had (and I think the GWR ones still have) a dim blue nightlight. Not sure if the Mark 1s had that.
I think the corridors in the Mark 1 Sleepers originally had wall mounted lights but latterly had concealed lighting that illuminated the ceiling. There were also the illuminated signs above each compartment door giving the number or numbers of each berth. I recently saw a set of these for sale on eBay, which I think were from the recently scrapped Mark 1 Sleeper Second that had been used as dormitory accommodation at the National Rifle Club.
AFAIK Mark 1 Sleeper vestibules and toilets were lit in the same way as in other Mark 1 stock.
Most if not all Mark 1 Sleepers were refurbished I think sometime in the 1970s (see also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mark-1-sleeping-car-refurbishment.225374/) and as part of the refurbishment programme I believe that the 1st class Sleepers got lowered ceilings with one larger ceiling light with a round shade instead of the two smaller lights but I think the 2nd class compartments kept their original ceilings and lights.
Each berth also had an individual reading lamp, but they had frosted glass lampshades that fully covered the bulb unlike ordinary Mark 1 compartments. I believe that some Mark 1 Sleepers latterly had fluorescent berth lights installed in place of the tungsten ones, and there was also a tungsten strip light above the long mirror.
Mark 3 Sleepers had (and I think the GWR ones still have) a dim blue nightlight. Not sure if the Mark 1s had that.
I think the corridors in the Mark 1 Sleepers originally had wall mounted lights but latterly had concealed lighting that illuminated the ceiling. There were also the illuminated signs above each compartment door giving the number or numbers of each berth. I recently saw a set of these for sale on eBay, which I think were from the recently scrapped Mark 1 Sleeper Second that had been used as dormitory accommodation at the National Rifle Club.
AFAIK Mark 1 Sleeper vestibules and toilets were lit in the same way as in other Mark 1 stock.
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