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Mk1 Carriages Before Blue/Grey Era

Masbroughlad

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What colours, and for which company/region were mark 1 carriages originally introduced?

Colours I know are green, maroon, carmine and cream, chocolate and cream. Were there any others?

Green were Southern?
Chocolate and cream were GWR/Western?

That's as far as I know. I am guessing maroon and carmine/cream were nationwide? Or were maroon Midland?

Any help gratefully received. TIA.
 
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StripeyNick

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Blood & custard and maroon wasn't regional. With those, I believe blood & custard came first (50s).

You're correct with your assumptions though regarding Southern & GWR. I think the choc & cream was first around in the blood & custard era then they went over to maroon.

I'm guessing many of the early liveries stuck around for quite some time. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come along to confirm
 

Gloster

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The original liveries were Crimson & Cream (Blood & Custard) for gangwayed stock and Crimson Lake for non-gangwayed. From 1956 Chocolate & Cream for the WR, green for the SR and maroon for the rest started appearing; teak for the ER was not proceeded with. Only the SR seems to have painted non-corridor stock in its regional livery, with the others using maroon. Blue and grey started appearing in 1965.

Crimson & Cream coaches quickly declined in numbers after 1956, but a few survived until the mid-1960s, while Crimson Lake ones may have lasted a bit longer. Chocolate & Cream was replaced by the WR in 1962, but a few coaches survived until around 1968. The SR continued to paint in green until 1965 and a few coaches may have just lasted into the seventies.

Source: British Railways Mark 1 Coaches (Parkin, HMRS, 2006).
 

WesternLancer

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The original liveries were Crimson & Cream (Blood & Custard) for gangwayed stock and Crimson Lake for non-gangwayed. From 1956 Chocolate & Cream for the WR, green for the SR and maroon for the rest started appearing; teak for the ER was not proceeded with. Only the SR seems to have painted non-corridor stock in its regional livery, with the others using maroon. Blue and grey started appearing in 1965.

Crimson & Cream coaches quickly declined in numbers after 1956, but a few survived until the mid-1960s, while Crimson Lake ones may have lasted a bit longer. Chocolate & Cream was replaced by the WR in 1962, but a few coaches survived until around 1968. The SR continued to paint in green until 1965 and a few coaches may have just lasted into the seventies.

Source: British Railways Mark 1 Coaches (Parkin, HMRS, 2006).
wasn't the chocolate and cream for the western region meant to be used for their key expresses / named trains? Or have a mis recalled what I've read before.

No doubt the carriages ended up in that livery on other WR trains too after a while
 

MarlowDonkey

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Only the SR seems to have painted non-corridor stock in its regional livery, with the others using maroon. Blue and grey started appearing in 1965.
Most of the Southern coaches were EMUs so were painted green anyway. With a handful of exceptions that applied to DMUs as well along with EMUs elsewhere.
 

45Fox

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wasn't the chocolate and cream for the western region meant to be used for their key expresses / named trains? Or have a mis recalled what I've read before.

I believe you're correct.

When it comes to pre-blue/grey survivors, there was the famous Derby charter rake of Mk.1s in maroon that made it well into the 1970s.

My late father was a very long time employee of GPO Telephones/Post Office Telecommunications/BT in Leicester, for many years the Leicester Post Office Social Club used to charter a train on a Sunday for their annual day out; in 1974 we went to Bournemouth for the day and the train was comprised of that set, probably one of the last fairly long distance trains worked by it in that livery as it disappeared soon after; either withdrawn or repainted into blue/grey, I'm not sure which.
 

Gloster

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wasn't the chocolate and cream for the western region meant to be used for their key expresses / named trains? Or have a mis recalled what I've read before.

No doubt the carriages ended up in that livery on other WR trains too after a while

Parkin does say that the WR limited the livery’s use to ‘sufficient stock to cover the majority of main line named trains and a pool of spares for strengthening where needed’; general stock went into maroon. The reason was that Chocolate & Cream was difficult to keep clean, as had been the situation with the Crimson & Cream. However, as more intensive diagrams were introduced it became more difficult to keep the two liveries separate.
 

Acathater

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wasn't the chocolate and cream for the western region meant to be used for their key expresses / named trains? Or have a mis recalled what I've read before.

No doubt the carriages ended up in that livery on other WR trains too after a while
Theory vs practice methinks!

Only a few weeks back I came across online a photo taken at Yeovil Town in the early 1960s of a pushpull set with both coaches in chocolate & cream despite past comments on here that by then they were all painted maroon...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I believe you're correct.

When it comes to pre-blue/grey survivors, there was the famous Derby charter rake of Mk.1s in maroon that made it well into the 1970s.

My late father was a very long time employee of GPO Telephones/Post Office Telecommunications/BT in Leicester, for many years the Leicester Post Office Social Club used to charter a train on a Sunday for their annual day out; in 1974 we went to Bournemouth for the day and the train was comprised of that set, probably one of the last fairly long distance trains worked by it in that livery as it disappeared soon after; either withdrawn or repainted into blue/grey, I'm not sure which.
I saw what was probably that set padded out with a few blue/grey coaches on Dawlish sea wall in around summer 1972. In was in a heck of a state with peeling/flapping roofing felt and multiple cracked windows. Was fit for the scrapper then, so two years later it could only have been worse

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Most of the Southern coaches were EMUs so were painted green anyway. With a handful of exceptions that applied to DMUs as well along with EMUs elsewhere.
Wasn't the Southern coaching green a paler brighter colour than the EMU green? I can remember back in the 1960s some rakes of old Maunsell sets seemingly abandoned on the Radipole viaduct at Weymouth........some were in solid carmine (no cream), the others in a paler flat green (possibly the varnish had weathered.......)

As for the carmine/crimson colour (or colours...) does anyone know exactly what the dye used in the paint was? Both carmine and crimson colouring was extracted from crushed insects, but completely different species giving similar colours but different intensities. Or had they moved onto a synthetic dye like alizarin (which isn't colour stable)?
 
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Sir Felix Pole

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Most of the Southern coaches were EMUs so were painted green anyway. With a handful of exceptions that applied to DMUs as well along with EMUs elsewhere.
The ex-GWR 'razor edge' railcars were one of the exceptions, appearing in crimson and cream after nationalisation, but finally ending their days in standard DMU green.
 

thesignalman

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Blood & custard and maroon wasn't regional. With those, I believe blood & custard came first (50s).

You're correct with your assumptions though regarding Southern & GWR. I think the choc & cream was first around in the blood & custard era then they went over to maroon.

I'm guessing many of the early liveries stuck around for quite some time. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come along to confirm
Just to clarify (it is probably said above but mixed over various comments):
Blood and Custard (or whatever you choose to call it), followed by maroon were national colours. It is just that the WR and SR were reluctant to do what they were told. As has been said, the WR did eventually adopt maroon (but kept God's Wonderful colours for named trains) although many WR enthusiasts refuse to accept the majority of their trains were indeed maroon. Ugh! Disgusting. :)

I can't offer dates but I can remember trains of mixed liveries over many years as repainting progressed. By the time nearly everything was maroon, it was time to start with the blue and grey. And maroon lasted a long while on things like parcels vans, although it was sometimes hard to tell as they never got washed. Green vans off the Southern were often amongst them too, all round the UK.

Nothing was done formally, it was more important running the trains than fussing about matching the colours in the formations.

John
 

45Fox

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I saw what was probably that set padded out with a few blue/grey coaches on Dawlish sea wall in around summer 1972. In was in a heck of a state with peeling/flapping roofing felt and multiple cracked windows. Was fit for the scrapper then, so two years later it could only have been worse

I remember it being in quite good nick and comprising all maroon stock, one of my memories of the day is it arriving into platform 3 at Leicester and my late mum saying, "ooh! It's one of the old trains."
Maybe the set you saw was some of the last WR maroon stock, or perhaps the Derby rake had undergone some repairs in the ensuing couple of years? (Pure guesswork on my part, admittedly).

The following year we went to Margate for the day on a blue/grey Mk.1 rake that was decidedly tatty and the-worse-for-wear.
 
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MarlowDonkey

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J By the time nearly everything was maroon, it was time to start with the blue and grey.

John
Blue Grey along with Blue for locomotives came in with the xp64 which was a prototype of sorts for the Mk2 design. There's a belief that some very early Mk2s were delivered in green. Were any delivered in maroon?
 

martin butler

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I used to work on several preserved railways doing coach overhauls, and by stripping back the coats of paint, often several thick, it was either Carmine and cream, or maroon, depending on the order number, and intended region, only later, did regional colours get introduced, because I worked on a former Western region coach, and there was Maroon under the brown and cream,
 

Acathater

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I remember it being in quite good nick and comprising all maroon stock, one of my memories of the day is it arriving into platform 3 at Leicester and my late mum saying, "ooh! It's one of the old trains."
Maybe the set you saw was some of the last WR maroon stock, or perhaps the Derby rake had undergone some repairs in the ensuing couple of years? (Pure guesswork on my part, admittedly).

Interestingly, the following year we went to Margate for the day on a blue/grey Mk.1 rake that was decidedly tatty and the-worse-for-wear.
Don't think it was an WR set - fairly certain it was on a NE-SW weekend hike from the midlands or tyneside

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Blue Grey along with Blue for locomotives came in with the xp64 which was a prototype of sorts for the Mk2 design. There's a belief that some very early Mk2s were delivered in green. Were any delivered in maroon?
Some green Mk2 firsts went to the Southern, used in boat trains at Weymouth and Southampton. Weymouth ones were easy to see from the beach
 

Gloster

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Blue Grey along with Blue for locomotives came in with the xp64 which was a prototype of sorts for the Mk2 design. There's a belief that some very early Mk2s were delivered in green. Were any delivered in maroon?

The SR had a batch of Mark 2 First Compartments (S13387-S13406) delivered in 1964 in green. They were intended for Ocean Liner trains and were, I think, largely used on these and, possibly later, boat trains.
 

Merle Haggard

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On a detail; the coach ends in the pre-B&G livery was black until, not long before the change, the ends of maroon coaches were also painted maroon. I think that this might only have been a Wolverton practice - possibly hankering back to the LMS practice, which was the same.

Nothing much to do with Mk1s (although the Inter-City and Pennine DMU were sort-of Mk1s) I think that the green used for DMU changed in shade from darker to lighter in the late '50s. It's possible that EMU changed similarly, but the colour did rather darker anyway.

There's a suggestion that teak ex LNER compartment coaches with a short planned remaining life were painted brown for a time after nationalisation. There were certainly some dingy plain brown ones still about in then late '50s. This might have been some sort of wood stain rather than paint, because it seemed to be very hard to get paint to grip on teak - often shown by the BR colour flaking off leaving the teak showing.
 

Rescars

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Most of the Southern coaches were EMUs so were painted green anyway. With a handful of exceptions that applied to DMUs as well along with EMUs elsewhere.
When B&G came in, the SR suburban emus swapped all green for all blue. B&G came later. Did any 4SUBs survive long enough to get the two tone treatment, or did they they remain all blue until the end?
 

Ash Bridge

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Blue Grey along with Blue for locomotives came in with the xp64 which was a prototype of sorts for the Mk2 design. There's a belief that some very early Mk2s were delivered in green. Were any delivered in maroon?
E13366 one of the earliest batch of MK2 vehicles was delivered in maroon livery for sure, it’s quite possible that the other coaches in the 13361 - 13386 series also carried this livery.
 

Gloster

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When B&G came in, the SR suburban emus swapped all green for all blue. B&G came later. Did any 4SUBs survive long enough to get the two tone treatment, or did they they remain all blue until the end?

Looking at the Blood and Custard website, which usually answers all these sort of questions, none were ever repainted in blue and grey.
 

45Fox

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When B&G came in, the SR suburban emus swapped all green for all blue. B&G came later. Did any 4SUBs survive long enough to get the two tone treatment, or did they they remain all blue until the end?

I've never seen any evidence of any in blue/grey, believe they were allover blue until the end; apart from the one set that was repainted into a pastiche of Southern Railway green, of course.
 

Taunton

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just a few bits to add, some covered before.

The Southern had an interim stage, called "revarnishing", which was a touch-up, often significant and paint as well as varnish, whereas "repainting" was strip right down and start again with undercoat. When red/cream, or plain red for non-corridor, came along around 1950 (it pre-dated Mk1 stock, when the final company designs were being built) the Southern amazingly managed to just Revarnish most stock, still in green. Come 1956, when they were officially allowed green again, they suddenly did Repainting again, of everything in sight! In 1963, when blue/grey was the new standard, it was of course back to revarnishing, pretty much to the end of hauled stock on the Bournemouth line.

The Somerset & Dorset route, Western Region from the late 1950s, nevertheless maintained the longstanding S&D tradition of coaches from the Southern, so they were green to the end, along with locos from the London Midland, which is how responsibilities were divided up in 1930.

The WR was very proprietorial about being allowed chocolate & cream again in 1956, only named trains, for which a large number of new named trains were created :) , and they did all the spare stock for these as well, which of course turned up elsewhere. When suppliers like Gloucester RCW built new stock going in to these, Swindon actually sent the paint from their stores to be used, for consistency, apparently an old GWR habit. In fact the paint spec must have been different, because a principal reason for abandoning red/cream so soon was the BR cream was deteriorating prematurely, but the equivalent WR paint lasted a full life.

Besides the final maroon Derby excursion set lasting well into the 1970s, mentioned above, Scotland had an equivalent, the bottom tier Cowlairs Excursion set, which lasted similarly, old early Mk1 SKs. It was the last maroon main line train I saw, and unexpected, working a Saturday lunchtime football excursion from Glasgow into Edinburgh Haymarket in early 1972, presumably one of the Glasgow teams against Hearts. Someone might even be able to cross-reference the actual date.

Blue, initially in the XP64 prototype and then the new standard, arose from a technical advance by ICI Paints at the time, blue was traditionally notorious for fading in outdoor applications, which is why it was so little used elsewhere if not very dark and dreary. It was a pigment fading issue, which the paint manufacturer finally cracked. The newly available colour was just what the designers were looking for, something to symbolise the new railway, which thus went everywhere, coaches, locos, etc.

The GWR railcars initially brought chocolate/cream with them, then in the early 1950s started repainting in the new red/cream. About halfway through this stopped, and changed over to railcar green, this half/half liveried fleet lasted to the end of their use.

Differences in shade arose because the paint was not supplied ready mixed, but as concentrated colour which was then mixed with thinners etc, an advantage of this was when patch-painting older paintwork the painter could vary the shade to match the amount of weathering, a process they were professionally expert in.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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There was a tale mentioned somewhere about a sharp supervisor at Clapham Yard who spotted a chocolate and cream BG , so he nabbed it and put into the Bournemouth Belle rake to give an uniform colour to the Pullman rake !
 

Big Jumby 74

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The SR had a batch of Mark 2 First Compartments (S13387-S13406) delivered in 1964 in green. They were intended for Ocean Liner trains and were, I think, largely used on these and, possibly later, boat trains
Correct, given a 'set' code of EH230 (EH = Eastleigh, where IIRC it was based for maintenance reasons) when operating on a boat train service, in the early days of (planning) computerisation. Although this set was the main 'go to' set for Boat train workings to/from Southampton (70s/80's), Mk 1 sets did also have a big impact on boat train workings to/from Southampton Docks, in the form of '8 Set H' or '8 Set J'. These were always referred to as '8 Set H' in the base plan CWN's, and were the sets that were known for their work on the Oxted road, but internally (at Clapham) we had access to two set's of each, but have never seen any evidence of '8 Set J' in any official documents that have survived to this day!
But they were issued as such on STP ACWN's back then, and often ran in conjunction with the Mk2 set when both QE2 and Canberra were in Dock simultaneously.

Getting back to the OPs comment about liveries, as I understand the SR vehicles were all in BR(S) green initially, although all those remaining were B/G by the time I worked with/diagrammed them (mid 70's). Some of those I was familiar with 50 years ago on the job are still around in preservation, which is nice to see!
 

D6130

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I believe that the very first prototype Mark 2 vehicle - FK no. M13252 - was delivered in maroon livery. Don't currently have access to my copy of Parkin....but I'll have a look when I get home tonight.
 

Gloster

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I believe that the very first prototype Mark 2 vehicle - FK no. M13252 - was delivered in maroon livery. Don't currently have access to my copy of Parkin....but I'll have a look when I get home tonight.

Indeed, W13252 was delivered in maroon. Supposedly, E13361-E13378 and M13379-M13386 were also in maroon, although the LMR ones only lasted around two years as such.
 

30907

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Only the SR seems to have painted non-corridor stock in its regional livery, with the others using maroon.
The SR Mk1 non corridor fleet numbered all of 29 vehicles, originally for Exeter-Exmouth.
Wasn't the Southern coaching green a paler brighter colour than the EMU green? I can remember back in the 1960s some rakes of old Maunsell sets seemingly abandoned on the Radipole viaduct at Weymouth........some were in solid carmine (no cream), the others in a paler flat green (possibly the varnish had weathered.......
Interesting - any SR carmine coaches would have been pre-grouping originally as Maunsell only rebuilt them (onto 58ft underframes, easy with wooden bodies!) - and then they were converted again to push-pull or even camping coaches....
 

Merle Haggard

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The SR Mk1 non corridor fleet numbered all of 29 vehicles, originally for Exeter-Exmouth.

Interesting - any SR carmine coaches would have been pre-grouping originally as Maunsell only rebuilt them (onto 58ft underframes, easy with wooden bodies!) - and then they were converted again to push-pull or even camping coaches....

That's interesting.

My spotting mate and myself made a visit to the Isle of Wight towards the end of steam there and our return from Portsmouth was circuitous. The Exeter - Waterloo train we caught had two green BR standard 'S' at the front behind the Warship. We took advantage of one of them - perhaps because it reduced the chance of a ticket check ;)

Looking back, it was surprising that the Southern didn't manage to unload them on the WR in 1963 boundary changes.
 

MarlowDonkey

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The SR Mk1 non corridor fleet numbered all of 29 vehicles, originally for Exeter-Exmouth.
What did they use on rural lines before Kent electrification and the DEMUs? Unlike the other regions they didn't need any for London suburban work.
 

Gloster

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Looking back, it was surprising that the Southern didn't manage to unload them on the WR in 1963 boundary changes.

Most seem to have gone to the WR or been withdrawn within a couple of years. A handful remained, along with the plastic S1000S, so possibly their last work was Clapham Junction-Kensington Olympia.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What did they use on rural lines before Kent electrification and the DEMUs? Unlike the other regions they didn't need any for London suburban work.

Mostly old, often pre-grouping, sets. They were ageing but had not been replaced in the years leading up to Beeching.
 

Merle Haggard

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Most seem to have gone to the WR or been withdrawn within a couple of years. A handful remained, along with the plastic S1000S, so possibly their last work was Clapham Junction-Kensington Olympia.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Mostly old, often pre-grouping, sets. They were ageing but had not been replaced in the years leading up to Beeching.

My bold.

S1000S is still around, and seeing it I realise that, because of its origin, it has buckeye couplers and (I think) the rubbing strip of a Pullman gangway - which I hadn't thought of. Unusual for compartment stock - I don't think that LNER compartment stock had buckeyes, and the Southern didn't build any - except possible a small number by Bulleid ???.
 

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