Mk 3 INFO

[Lawman]

Folks,
would be grateful is someone could explain the main difference between MK 2,MK3 AND MK4 Coaches,which trains use which units,thanks

 

[starrymarkb]

Folks,
would be grateful is someone could explain the main difference between MK 2,MK3 AND MK4 Coaches,which trains use which units,thanks

A basic guide to telling apart.

Mk2s are short and found in the sleeper rake. They date from the late 60s/early 70's
Mk3s are found in HSTs and date from the mid 70s to early 80s.
Mk4s are only found in East Coast's 91 hauled trains and are the only hauled stock with power doors.

Mk2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mk_2F_TSO_6035_at_Carlisle.JPG

Mk3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T_Mark_IIIA_TSO_12145.JPG

Mk4
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bombardier_train_in_the_UK.jpg (file name is dubious as the Mk4 was a Alstom Product)

 

[Lawman]

A basic guide to telling apart.

Mk2s are short and found in the sleeper rake. They date from the late 60s/early 70's
Mk3s are found in HSTs and date from the mid 70s to early 80s.
Mk4s are only found in East Coast's 91 hauled trains.

Mk2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mk_2F_TSO_6035_at_Carlisle.JPG

Mk3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T_Mark_IIIA_TSO_12145.JPG

Mk4
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bombardier_train_in_the_UK.jpg (file name is dubious as the Mk4 was a Alstom Product)

Thanks,your a Gentleman

 

[Hydro]

Mk3's are the HST trailers, Mk3a's are the loco-hauled version.

Mk3 and Mk3a's can be told apart by Mk3a's having buffers.

 

[Darandio]

Wikipedia is a fairly good resource to help you on this one, but starrymarkb has covered the bases.

Additionally, Mk2's can be found on various railtours, the most visually prominent possibly being the ex Virgin liveried stock and Cargo-D.

Mk3's are the stock used in HST formations and these specifically do not have buffers. Mk3A is the loco hauled version of the stock which has buffers and was built in equally great numbers.

A general rule of thumb to help you tell them apart quickly:-

Mk2 - Has a smooth looking roof.

Mk3 - Has a ribbed roof.

Mk4 - Is profiled for tilt, therefore the body narrows at the top.

 

[table38]

table38's guide to loco-hauled coaches

If it's got powered doors, its a Mk.4

Otherwise, if it's got all the gubbins boxed in underneath, its a Mk.3

Otherwise, if it's got aircon and no opening windows, it's a Mk.2d, 2e or 2f (2d's have no luggage racks opposite the larger toilets; 2f's have treadle operated vestibule doors)

Otherwise, if it's got the large "Mk.2d" toilet at each end that intrude too far out into the corridor and means you lose a seat, it's a Mk.2c

Otherwise, if it's got two toilets at one end and no centre doors, it's a Mk.2b

Otherwise, if it's got centre doors, it's a Mk.2a

Otherwise, if it's got wood paneling it's a Mk.2

Unless it's a Mk.1

I've not found a 100% certain way of distinguishing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Incandescent lighting is a clue to Mk.1, but I have been in a Mk.1 with fluorescents!

 

[Lawman]

table38's guide to loco-hauled coaches

If it's got powered doors, its a Mk.4

Otherwise, if it's got all the gubbins boxed in underneath, its a Mk.3

Otherwise, if it's got aircon and no opening windows, it's a Mk.2d, 2e or 2f (2d's have no luggage racks opposite the larger toilets; 2f's have treadle operated vestibule doors)

Otherwise, if its got a large "2d" toilet at each end that extends out too far and means you lose a seat, it's a Mk.2c

Otherwise, if its got two toilets at one end and no centre doors, it's a Mk.2b

Otherwise if it's got centre doors, it's a Mk.2a

Otherwise if it's got wood paneling it's a Mk.2

Unless its a Mk.1

I've not found a 100% certain way of distingusihing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Fluorescent lights are a clue, but I have been in a Mk.1 with those!

you boys certainly know your stuff

 

[table38]

you boys certainly know your stuff

If anyone has any corrections or clarifications I'd be greatful. It annoys me if I can't tell what I'm sat in (OCD or what)

I'll add Hydro's distintion between Mk.3 and Mk.3a if I may!

 

[Darandio]

I'll add Hydro's distintion between Mk.3 and Mk.3a if I may!

Which bit?

The part where you may think you are sat on a Mk3, but you are actually on a Mk3a because it has earlier been converted and the buffers removed.

 

[table38]

The part where you may think you are sat on a Mk3, but you are actually on a Mk3a because it has earlier been converted and the buffers removed.

A fair point!

There's been a lot of swapping and cannibalising which defeats some of my "rules". You used to be able to tell some Mk.2's by the sink and foot-pedals in the toilet, but I was in a Mk.2a on Saturday where one side had a foot pedal flush, and the other side had a handle flush!

 

[jopsuk]

Quite a few of the Southern Region 3rd rail slam door EMUs built in the 50s and 60s were based on the Mark 1 coach design- indeed, some of the trailers (and especially buffet coaches) that found their way into units were first built as hauled coaches. Several AC classes also- including 303 and 311 which had sliding doors. Not sure if any of the DMUs were directly derived from the Mark 1?
Very few classes were based on the Mark 2- 310 and 312, plus the Northern Irish Class 80 used the bodyshell
There's several based on the Mark 3- most obviously the Class 442. A shorter (20m) bodyshell, slightly wider, with 1/3 and 2/3 sliding doors, was derived from the Mark 3, and this is the basis of the 150, 317-322, 455 & 456, the postal 325s and the NI 450- plus the extinct classes 154 (a modified 150) and 210.
There are no Mark 4 derived multiple units, and there's a lot that were built among all those to unrelated (if similar looking) designs.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've not found a 100% certain way of distinguishing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Incandescent lighting is a clue to Mk.1, but I have been in a Mk.1 with fluorescents!

The windows are bigger on the Mk2 aren't they? So from inside the Mk 1 has squarer looking windows, the Mk 2 is slightly more of an oblong proportion.

And the seats - Mk 1s have the bulkier one piece seats whereas Mk 2 have individual seats, if I recall correctly???

From outside it's very easy - Mk 1 have flat front ends around the gangways; the Mk 2 have rounded ends.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Main recognition between the Mk1 and early Mk2 is that the Mk1 is more boxy wheras the Mk2 is more rounded. Another quick recognition is that the Mk1s have 2 sliding quaterlights at the tops of the windows (so the top is divided into 4), the none air-conditioned Mk2s have one (so it's divided into 3). Later Mk2s are easy due to the lack of opening windows. The underframe is quite different, Mk1s have a seperate underframe which can easily be seen under the body. The Mk2s are semi-integral so the underframe is built into the body and can't be seen.

Another couple of Mk2 differences. Mk2Cs have a lower ceiling for air conditioning, but never had it fitted (they still have opening windows). Mk2Ds were the last with compartments, so any corridor 1st with air-con will be a D. An easy external recognition between Ds, Es and Fs is that Ds and Es have Stones air-conditioning which has 2 small fans, Fs have Temperature Limited which has one large fan. Most Mk2s the standard class seats have no centre armrest and wings on the headrest. Mk2Fs have IC70 seats like in the Mk3s.

As well as the mentioned Mk2 to Mk3 differences, Mk2s with wrap around doors also have a small ventilator over the droplight in the door. If you are looking end on, the Mk2s have square corner windows in the gangway doors, Mk3s have rounded ones. The gangway doors on the Mk3s sit flush in the middle when shut wheras Mk2s gangway doors have a ridge.

 

[t_star2001uk]

table38's guide to loco-hauled coaches

If it's got powered doors, its a Mk.4

Otherwise, if it's got all the gubbins boxed in underneath, its a Mk.3

Otherwise, if it's got aircon and no opening windows, it's a Mk.2d, 2e or 2f (2d's have no luggage racks opposite the larger toilets; 2f's have treadle operated vestibule doors)

Otherwise, if it's got the large "Mk.2d" toilet at each end that intrude too far out into the corridor and means you lose a seat, it's a Mk.2c

Otherwise, if it's got two toilets at one end and no centre doors, it's a Mk.2b

Otherwise, if it's got centre doors, it's a Mk.2a

Otherwise, if it's got wood paneling it's a Mk.2

Unless it's a Mk.1

I've not found a 100% certain way of distinguishing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Incandescent lighting is a clue to Mk.1, but I have been in a Mk.1 with fluorescents!

Dont forget Table that the Mk3's that Chiltern are using will all have power doors eventually.


t_star2001uk

 

[jopsuk]

Also, the mark 3s exported to Ireland had power doors. This includes BREL's experimental "International" set that also had steps for low continental platforms- they were trying (in vain) to drum up business from other countries.

 

[matchmaker]

I've not found a 100% certain way of distinguishing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Incandescent lighting is a clue to Mk.1, but I have been in a Mk.1 with fluorescents!

The side/end join is a certain giveaway. Mk 2 are rounded, Mk 1 is an angle.

 

[dubscottie]

Just to add to the Mk 3's..

The prototype and original loco-hauled ones have 3 small vents on the roof at each end while coaches built for HST train-sets, sleepers and Mk 3B's have square vents.

The easiest way to tell which coaches have been converted from loco-hauled stock in say a XC or Grand Central HST is to look at the roof vents.

Also the prototype Mk3's don't have aluminum window frames.
Sleepers and Mk3B have built in taillights.

 

[ailsa]

I've not found a 100% certain way of distinguishing Mk.1 from Mk.2. Incandescent lighting is a clue to Mk.1, but I have been in a Mk.1 with fluorescents!

I always look for the roof profile at the ends of the coaches. Mk 2's are rounded but Mk 1's are very square.

Apologies if anyone already posted that.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I would have thought that the best way to distinguish a Mk I from a Mk II these days would be the windows. This may not be definitive, but ALL Mk I coaches have opening toplights and MOST Mk IIs don't.