Mk 1 bogie preferences.

[randyrippley]

I thought Mk2F and Mk3 (along with suitably treated 2D) weren't and issue for Deltics? Certainly the Scottish Region used a Deltic to run a trip to Oban and back in the early '80s that used a Mk3 Push-pull set and a Deltic was chosen because it was the only ETH-fitted loco that had a low enough RA for the Oban line, 47s being too heavy and the 37/4 conversions now having been done yet.

And what were those air conditioned "Deltic+8" mk2 formations?

 

[randyrippley]

A long of stock carried such stickers in the 70’s and 80’s , it was to avoid them straying. The Mk2’s for Edinburgh Glasgow push pull carried such stickers, then after they were replaced and sent to Eastern region many still retained these stickers. Likewise many Vans were also in theory dedicated to certain routes but could turn up anywhere ( and did) on the network

Eastern Region? At the time Modern Railways said they replaced the mk1 stock on Waterloo-Exeter - which would make sense as the ETH was needed there

 

[dubscottie]

Eastern Region? At the time Modern Railways said they replaced the mk1 stock on Waterloo-Exeter - which would make sense as the ETH was needed there

The majority of the ex E&G Mk2 not kept in Scotland ended up on the Eastern. Most on the Trans-Pennine but a few were based at NC. Some ended their days based at Carlisle.

 

[hexagon789]

From what I can recall, the Deltic to Oban had the engine next to the coaches running on idle to supply ETH only and the other was used for traction, one engine being enough to shift 6 coaches.
There is a pic on Flickr of a Deltic on MK3 stock at York and the ETH connections seem to be plugged in also.

I didn't realise you could do that with a Deltic I assumed you either had both engines powering or one powering but seems quite the useful feature being able to have one for traction and the other purely for ETH.

 

[hexagon789]

And what were those air conditioned "Deltic+8" mk2 formations?

The earliest were Mk2D. Indeed the first three air-con sets on the ECML (from April 1971) were used to cover two King's X-Newcastle diagrams and were formed:

Mk2D BFK
Mk2D FO
Mk2D FO
Mk1 RU
Mk1 RB
Mk2D TSO
Mk2D TSO
Mk2D TSO

The one in the early 1980s when the HSTs had taken over the main services were mixed Mk2D/F.

 

[43096]

I thought Mk2F and Mk3 (along with suitably treated 2D) weren't and issue for Deltics? Certainly the Scottish Region used a Deltic to run a trip to Oban and back in the early '80s that used a Mk3 Push-pull set and a Deltic was chosen because it was the only ETH-fitted loco that had a low enough RA for the Oban line, 47s being too heavy and the 37/4 conversions now having been done yet.

Possibly, but I still wouldn't be plugging a Deltic into anything with MA sets. Just not worth the risk.

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly, but I still wouldn't be plugging a Deltic into anything with MA sets. Just not worth the risk.

Nowadays I assume you mean?

 

[43096]

Nowadays I assume you mean?

Yep!

 

[hexagon789]

Yep!

In that case your previous post makes a lot more sense to me now!

 

[Taunton]

The earliest were Mk2D. Indeed the first three air-con sets on the ECML (from April 1971) were used to cover two King's X-Newcastle diagrams and were formed:

Mk2D BFK
Mk2D FO
Mk2D FO
Mk1 RU
Mk1 RB
Mk2D TSO
Mk2D TSO
Mk2D TSO

The one in the early 1980s when the HSTs had taken over the main services were mixed Mk2D/F.

What a wasteful formation. 5 out of the 8 vehicles devoted to First Class or dining.

By late 1971 I recall the first AC vehicle I encountered, at Edinburgh on a Kings Cross service; Mk 2d with a Deltic. It was one of the early ones with a large interior handle for the door and no droplight. I think within a few months at least two children had fiddled with the handle and fallen out at speed, whereupon we had droplights reinstated for another 50 years.

 

[hexagon789]

What a wasteful formation. 5 out of the 8 vehicles devoted to First Class or dining.

Two of the services each diagram operated were what I would say were the peak "business" services in each direction so probably had strong first class loadings and high demand for meals.

By late 1971 I recall the first AC vehicle I encountered, at Edinburgh on a Kings Cross service; Mk 2d with a Deltic. It was one of the early ones with a large interior handle for the door and no droplight. I think within a few months at least two children had fiddled with the handle and fallen out at speed, whereupon we had droplights reinstated for another 50 years.

The Harris book recounts three such incidents including one involving a young child, the incidents resulting in removal of the internal handle and the unlocking of the door droplights.

 

[Journeyman]

A few years ago I was involved in surveying 2 mk1 sleepers acquired by Bo'ness. These had sprayed blue asbestos on the underframe and also inside on the walls and ceilings behind the panelling. Both were dismantled and scrapped as the cost of removal and restoration was astronomical. Don't think I would've fancied travelling on one, scary! I believe it was mainly for acoustic insulation. I can't remember what bogies they had though.

It's very unfortunate that Mark 1 sleepers are so difficult to strip asbestos out of - they're now on the verge of extinction, and I've never had the pleasure of seeing one.

Still, I'm well impressed by the restoration of the wooden bodied sleeper at Bo'ness, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in the museum with the Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3.

 

[dubscottie]

I didn't realise you could do that with a Deltic I assumed you either had both engines powering or one powering but seems quite the useful feature being able to have one for traction and the other purely for ETH.

Someone might know better but I heard that is how they did it. I read somewhere that in order to reduce exhaust clang, drivers would shut down one engine approaching say York and fire it up again once clear of the station.

The Deltics got a mod to allow the driver to move the direction handle from "forward" to "engine only" while moving so they could restart the other engine without the brakes slamming on so I presume both engines could run separately.

 

[hexagon789]

Someone might know better but I heard that is how they did it. I read somewhere that in order to reduce exhaust clang, drivers would shut down one engine approaching say York and fire it up again once clear of the station.

The Deltics got a mod to allow the driver to move the direction handle from "forward" to "engine only" while moving so they could restart the other engine without the brakes slamming on so I presume both engines could run separately.

I know they set them up differently after the introduction of air-con stock, so that one engine would supply power first then the other would only cut in when the power handle was advanced beyond about 1/5 or a 1/4 this being done to try and maintain a more steady ETH voltage.

 

[randyrippley]

I can remember reading years ago that when the Deltics were being used for transpennine work in their last couple of years it was quite common for them to run with only one engine working..........but whether that was deliberate or not seemed uncertain! Deltic on a class 31 schedule? Who needs two engines.....?

 

[delt1c]

I can remember reading years ago that when the Deltics were being used for transpennine work in their last couple of years it was quite common for them to run with only one engine working..........but whether that was deliberate or not seemed uncertain! Deltic on a class 31 schedule? Who needs two engines.....?

In their final days many of the Deltics were running with just one operational engine

 

[hexagon789]

I can remember reading years ago that when the Deltics were being used for transpennine work in their last couple of years it was quite common for them to run with only one engine working..........but whether that was deliberate or not seemed uncertain! Deltic on a class 31 schedule? Who needs two engines.....?

Given they are quite light for their power (only 99 tons) and could easily handle 13 coaches at 100mph I don't think about 7 coaches (at I think 75 was the maximum over the Pennines then) would've been any trouble for them.

 

[Richard Scott]

Know we're massively off topic but thought Deltics dropped ETH out on starting off until generator voltage had increased then it came back in. Remember 55022 running on Virgin stock around late 90s(?) so did those coaches have modified MA sets or were they taking a risk.
Back to mark 1s reminding me when I was much younger and at Paddington with a couple of friends and the dad of one of the friends. Choice between HST and 50040 on mark 1s, dad said he'd rather do the HST, remember saying that mark 1 was on B4 bogies to which he said 'it's still a mark 1!'

 

[hexagon789]

Know we're massively off topic but thought Deltics dropped ETH out on starting off until generator voltage had increased then it came back in. Remember 55022 running on Virgin stock around late 90s(?) so did those coaches have modified MA sets or were they taking a risk.
Back to mark 1s reminding me when I was much younger and at Paddington with a couple of friends and the dad of one of the friends. Choice between HST and 50040 on mark 1s, dad said he'd rather do the HST, remember saying that mark 1 was on B4 bogies to which he said 'it's still a mark 1!'

It was about 1997-1999 on XC Ramsgate (worked from Birmingham by Deltic iirc) turns and yes they did marshall some specific rakes for the 55.

 

[Richard Scott]

It was about 1997-1999 on XC Ramsgate (worked from Birmingham by Deltic iirc) turns and yes they did marshall some specific rakes for the 55.

Thanks, I did wonder. Still off topic on Deltics sure a driver told me once that second engine came in when power controller was in notch 6 (may/may not be true?).

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, I did wonder. Still off topic on Deltics sure a driver told me once that second engine came in when power controller was in notch 6 (may/may not be true?).

There are no notches on a Deltic's power controller other than OFF, ON and FULL; it's fully variable between about 10% and full power in common with most BR diesels of the era.

What the actual setting of power is that brings in the second engine is I'm not sure exactly, I've seen both 20% and 25%.

 

[Richard Scott]

There are no notches on a Deltic's power controller other than OFF, ON and FULL; it's fully variable between about 10% and full power in common with most BR diesels of the era.

What the actual setting of power is that brings in the second engine is I'm not sure exactly, I've seen both 20% and 25%.

Ok, I was aware it's notchless and the so called notches are indications (on blue star sure they correspond to certain steps in air pressure to Governor for some locos hence term notch) but there is some story that second engine doesn't cut in until 25mph, which I would guess is about the speed can probably get full power applied as thought they were fairly notorious for sending ammeter flying over even on low power (possibly this should be in a different thread?). I really just need this second engine coming in at certain places myth proven or disproven, to be honest, that's all I want to know. Anyone out there who drives them/drove them?

 

[hexagon789]

Ok, I was aware it's notchless and the so called notches are indications (on blue star sure they correspond to certain steps in air pressure to Governor for some locos hence term notch) but there is some story that second engine doesn't cut in until 25mph, which I would guess is about the speed can probably get full power applied as thought they were fairly notorious for sending ammeter flying over even on low power (possibly this should be in a different thread?). I really just need this second engine coming in at certain places myth proven or disproven, to be honest, that's all I want to know. Anyone out there who drives them/drove them?

I found this on another site:

Originally on Class 55 the engines operated in unison, each power unit running at the same rpms and power, i.e. half power would mean both units working on half power. This changed when the Deltics were fitted with ETH. The ETH was taken from the main generator, and this could only provide the required volts when running at near full speed. To avoid ETH only being available at full power, the governors were arranged so that the power unit providing the ETH would spool up first. This meant that at half power you would have one power unit running flat out whilst the second was just idling. More power demand caused the second unit to spool up. It is why it might seem as a Deltic is pulling away that only one engine is running - one will be revving up and smoking whilst the other is still idling - until the controller is moved passed half power then the other unit starts to catch up with the first. Drivers were instructed not to use low power for long periods for this reason - less than half power for any length of time and the train would get cold!

To solve the problem of providing ETH at idle, the two generators were connected in series to get adequate volts.

 

[Richard Scott]

Thanks for reply and clearing that up. Apologies for hijacking the Mark 1 thread, maybe can get back to original discussion!

 

[hexagon789]

Getting back to the topic then, something I was thinking about was that given Mk1 NEA were passed for 110mph on B4s with special maintenance is there a reason Mk1 catering cars on B4s/B5s formed in trains of otherwise Mk3 stock couldn't also be passed for 110mph?

I'm thinking of trains such as the Manchester Pullman which pre-push pull was all Mk3 save a Mk1 NEA and Mk1 RKB.

 

[Helvellyn]

Getting back to the topic then, something I was thinking about was that given Mk1 NEA were passed for 110mph on B4s with special maintenance is there a reason Mk1 catering cars on B4s/B5s formed in trains of otherwise Mk3 stock couldn't also be passed for 110mph?

I'm thinking of trains such as the Manchester Pullman which pre-push pull was all Mk3 save a Mk1 NEA and Mk1 RKB.

Tolerable ride for a Guard seated in the van, but less so for catering staff on their feet trying to cook breakfasts or dinners?

Or maybe the shorter frame meant any increased body movement was still within gauge for a 57' NHA as opposed to a 64' RKB?

 

[hexagon789]

Tolerable ride for a Guard seated in the van, but less so for catering staff on their feet trying to cook breakfasts or dinners?

Or maybe the shorter frame meant any increased body movement was still within gauge for a 57' NHA as opposed to a 64' RKB?

Could well be it, though catering vehicles with Mk1 bogies had run at 100 in early years and the ride on those I would've expected to be worse than a B4 at 110 but then again BR did fit Gresley bogies to some catering cars to address ride issues so...

...it's complicated I suppose!

 

[Cowley]

I was looking through rmweb this afternoon and came across this photo taken at Preston sometime around 1968. Unfortunately I couldn’t find out who’d taken it but it’s a very interesting shot of a blue and grey mk1 fitted with B4 bogies behind a very grubby Ivatt 43033:

 

[hexagon789]

I was looking through rmweb this afternoon and came across this photo taken at Preston sometime around 1968. Unfortunately I couldn’t find out who’d taken it but it’s a very interesting shot of a blue and grey mk1 fitted with B4 bogies behind a very grubby Ivatt 43033:

View attachment 78685

Nice shot, presumably a Mk1 upgraded with B4s to allow 100mph running in mainline sets and it's perhaps been pushed out from those duties by the greater amount of Mk2 stock in existence by this point?

 

[Cowley]

Nice shot, presumably a Mk1 upgraded with B4s to allow 100mph running in mainline sets and it's perhaps been pushed out from those duties by the greater amount of Mk2 stock in existence by this point?

I don’t know as I couldn’t find anymore info unfortunately.
I loved the contrast of the blue and grey, colour light signals and steam loco though...