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Mk 1 bogie preferences.

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delt1c

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Note a lot of posts on here about semi modern bogies but few on the ride quality of the Mk1. For me I always checked the stock and would head for the commonwealth bogie coaches, hopefully they were SK’s or CK’s but always dealt these were the smoothest ride ( especially overnights) , did get a ride on one either rubber suppression ( French idea) but was not impressed ( but LT used it on C69’s). Gresleys were reasonable on catering vehicles. Wondering what preferences others had
 
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30907

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BR1 bogies were pretty dire (and pretty unavoidable on SR electrics) - yes, once I learnt about CW bogies (and started travelling more widely) I would go for them or B4.
 

306024

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Rose tinted but the best train I’ve travelled on in the UK was the class 309 Clacton EMUs on commonwealth bogies. They seemed to glide along, even on the GEML.
 

AM9

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Rose tinted but the best train I’ve travelled on in the UK was the class 309 Clacton EMUs on commonwealth bogies. They seemed to glide along, even on the GEML.
Beat me to it. Although heavy and expensive, Commonwealth bogies were more tolerant of indifferent track than even the B4s.
 

GusB

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When I was travelling aboard Mk1s, I was far too young to notice any difference!
 

Revaulx

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The AM4s had a noticeably worse ride than the 40 year old LMS designed Altrincham DC units they replaced. The AM4s had Gresley bogies, but were built 20 years after the great man had died. Maybe had he lived he would have come up with an improved version.
 

Ash Bridge

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Rose tinted but the best train I’ve travelled on in the UK was the class 309 Clacton EMUs on commonwealth bogies. They seemed to glide along, even on the GEML.

They still retained that quality right into their latter days under First Northwestern too. Sampled them several times working the evening Manchester Picc - Birmingham NS service via Crewe and they were a joy to travel on, smooth as silk especially doing a steady 100 mph between Crewe - Stafford.
 

delt1c

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BR1 bogies were pretty dire (and pretty unavoidable on SR electrics) - yes, once I learnt about CW bogies (and started travelling more widely) I would go for them or B4.
BR1 was like riding on a Roller coaster. Remember once using the 10.05 Edinburgh to Plymouth around 1976, it was formed of Mk1's both compartment and open stock, just walking through the train at speed you could tell the Comonwealth bogies just by the ride quality.
As for the Gresley bogies, several Catering vehicles were fitted with them and the rode fine. I believe the problem with Gresley bogies on EMU's was due to different damping
 

Helvellyn

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BR1 was like riding on a Roller coaster. Remember once using the 10.05 Edinburgh to Plymouth around 1976, it was formed of Mk1's both compartment and open stock, just walking through the train at speed you could tell the Comonwealth bogies just by the ride quality.
As for the Gresley bogies, several Catering vehicles were fitted with them and the rode fine. I believe the problem with Gresley bogies on EMU's was due to different damping
A number of refurbished Eastern Region AMx types (302, 305/2, 307, 308) had their Gresley bogies on the trailers replaced with B4s during refurbishment if I recall.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Funnily enough, I quite liked the Gresley bogies under the Class 307s or the Mark 3/4 under the EPBs and Haps. Their rough riding added to their character over jointed track and pointwork. Commonwealth and B4's sounded too clinical and sucked the life out of certain stock like the Veps and Cigs and refurbished Ceps IMHO.
 

AM9

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Funnily enough, I quite liked the Gresley bogies under the Class 307s or the Mark 3/4 under the EPBs and Haps. Their rough riding added to their character over jointed track and pointwork. Commonwealth and B4's sounded too clinical and sucked the life out of certain stock like the Veps and Cigs and refurbished Ceps IMHO.
I don't think that the 307s had the definitive Gresley bogies fitted like the 302/303/304/305/308 classes did. They had similar bogie types to the 306s when built and at some point (I guess in the '80s) had them replaced with B4s. It's difficult to find pictures that show them clearly, but I've found these pictures on the RCTS website that were taken in the GE DC days where it can be seen that they are definately not the same as fitted to the other BR outer suburban EMU stock. The pictures are watermarked so I don't feel that it is right to paste them here directly, but here is a link to them:
https://rcts.zenfolio.com/electric/br/ac-emu-classes-301-399/307
Quite worth a look anyway as they show them in their 1500VDC condition with the twin collector shoe on the pantograph. Sorry I know that it is off-topic but those pictures are a discovery to me.
 

Taunton

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The Commonwealth was a US design, from Commonwealth Steel of St Louis. Behind the scenes they had long been jointly owned by the largest two USA steam loco builders, Baldwin and Alco. Their specialism was substantial steel castings, likely larger than any in-house foundry at a railway workshop could manage, hence the large heavyweight frame of the Commonwealth bogie, rather than a built-up/fabricated one. They were also experts in developing the frame casting into a full bogie design, with all the springing, dynamics etc understood. Into the diesel era General Motors and others made extensive use of their bogies, typically because they had been specified by the purchaser.

In Britain, they licensed the design patents not to BR but to a steel company in Sheffield who had the casting capability. The bogie was expensive because there were thus several companies in the chain, and also because it was physically heavy with a lot of solid steel in it. Do I believe they were about 2 tons each heavier than the B4. As described above, it rode better than anything else around, given some expert maintenance, which part of the high price made sure was well documented, right tools, etc. It's the old story. You can have a big, heavy, expensive product that works well, or a supposedly more efficient, lighter, cheaper, easier to make one that doesn't quite get there. Designers trying to get the upsides of both approaches in one product rarely achieve much more than a compromise.

I think pretty much all the main line Mk 1 stock built by BR in 1960-63, between the B1 falling out of favour and the B4 coming along with Mk 2 stock, used the Commonwealth. When the stock was withdrawn the bogies seem principally to have then been used again secondhand as replacements on other vehicles.
 
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AM9

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The Commonwealth was a US design, from Commonwealth Steel of St Louis. Behind the scenes they had long been jointly owned by the largest two USA steam loco builders, Baldwin and Alco. Their specialism was substantial steel castings, likely larger than any in-house foundry at a railway workshop could manage, hence the large heavyweight frame of the Commonwealth bogie, rather than a built-up/fabricated one. They were also experts in developing the frame casting into a full bogie design, with all the springing, dynamics etc understood. Into the diesel era General Motors and others made extensive use of their bogies, typically because they had been specified by the purchaser.

In Britain, they licensed the design patents not to BR but to a steel company in Sheffield who had the casting capability. The bogie was expensive because there were thus several companies in the chain, and also because it was physically heavy with a lot of solid steel in it. Do I believe they were about 2 tons each heavier than the B4. As described above, it rode better than anything else around, given some expert maintenance, which part of the high price made sure was well documented, right tools, etc. It's the old story. You can have a big, heavy, expensive product that works well, or a supposedly more efficient, lighter, cheaper, easier to make one that doesn't quite get there. Designers trying to get the upsides of both approaches in one product rarely achieve much more than a compromise.

I think pretty much all the main line Mk 1 stock built by BR in 1960-63, between the B1 falling out of favour and the B4 coming along with Mk 2 stock, used the Commonwealth. When the stock was withdrawn the bogies seem principally to have then been used again secondhand as replacements on other vehicles.
Yes I note that West Coast Railways seem to have all of their MKI stock fitted with them and give a good ride, especially as dining cars.
 

Cowley

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I’m reasonably knowledgeable about B1, B4, B5, Commonwealth and Gresley bogies. But was there a B2 and B3 bogie development at some point then? I don’t recall ever hearing about them.
 

hexagon789

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I’m reasonably knowledgeable about B1, B4, B5, Commonwealth and Gresley bogies. But was there a B2 and B3 bogie development at some point then? I don’t recall ever hearing about them.

The British Rail mark 1 bogies (commonly referred to as BR1 or even B1) had numerous variants within it. You had double and single bolster and also a heavier variant (rather like how the B5 is the heavier duty variant of the B4) and this heavier duty variant is sometimes referred to as BR2 or B2.

The "standard" bogies fitted to the earliest Mk1s and Mk1 EMUs and DEMUs have too many variants to list (seriously it's probably close on two dozen); even the B4s have 13 variants!

I do have a document which describes the differences with some photographs.
 
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AM9

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The British Rail mark 1 bogies (commonly referred to as BR1 or even B1) had numerous variants within it. You had double and single bolster and also a heavier variant (rather like how the B5 is the heavier duty variant of the B4) and this heavier duty variant is sometimes referred to as BR2 or B2.

The "standard" bogies fitted to the earliest Mk1s and Mk1 EMUs and DEMUs have too many variants to list (seriously it's probably close on two dozen); even the B4s have 13 variants!

I do have a document which describes the differences with some photographs.
The Gresley bogies (as used in LNER designs) came in two major types, the 'standard' and 'heavy' versions. I believe that the originals were used on older all wooden coaching and lighter vehicles such as the Quad and Quinarts. The heavier corridor vehicles, especially resaurant cars, used the heavy versions, which culminating in the Thompson all-steel stock, were probably the starting point for BR when they were designing the MKI EMUs which whilst of moderate weight compared with much contemporary stock, were destined for intensive use on suburban services.
 

unslet

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I understand that when BR sold Mk 1s to preservationists,a condition of sale was that Commonwealth bogies,where fitted,were returned to BR.
 

hexagon789

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The Gresley bogies (as used in LNER designs) came in two major types, the 'standard' and 'heavy' versions. I believe that the originals were used on older all wooden coaching and lighter vehicles such as the Quad and Quinarts. The heavier corridor vehicles, especially resaurant cars, used the heavy versions, which culminating in the Thompson all-steel stock, were probably the starting point for BR when they were designing the MKI EMUs which whilst of moderate weight compared with much contemporary stock, were destined for intensive use on suburban services.

Going off the document there appears to have been single and double-bolster, normal and heavy duty plus EMU trailer and motor bogie variants to the "Gresley" bogie design.

It's like anything, at first glance there appear to be a couple of different types within a group but then you start finding more and more little differences here and there.

I understand that when BR sold Mk 1s to preservationists,a condition of sale was that Commonwealth bogies,where fitted,were returned to BR.

That would explain why so many of the early preserved Mk1s seemed to be on mark 1 bogies. Now most heritage lines seem to have a selection of bogied Mk1s.
 

edwin_m

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That would explain why so many of the early preserved Mk1s seemed to be on mark 1 bogies. Now most heritage lines seem to have a selection of bogied Mk1s.
The first ones to be withdrawn would probably mostly have been on the original bogie design in any case, and if asked they might have preferred the lighter bogie and probably had no concern about ride quality at speed! Some preserved lines may have replaced their early Mk1s when later ones became available, particularly those with the separate window frames that were more corrosion-resistant.
 

Cowley

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The British Rail mark 1 bogies (commonly referred to as BR1 or even B1) had numerous variants within it. You had double and single bolster and also a heavier variant (rather like how the B5 is the heavier duty variant of the B4) and this heavier duty variant is sometimes referred to as BR2 or B2.

The "standard" bogies fitted to the earliest Mk1s and Mk1 EMUs and DEMUs have too many variants to list (seriously it's probably close on two dozen); even the B4s have 13 variants!

I do have a document which describes the differences with some photographs.
Thanks for that Hexagon.
 

Taunton

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Some preserved lines may have replaced their early Mk1s when later ones became available, particularly those with the separate window frames that were more corrosion-resistant.
Window frames were just part of it. I understand a whole series of improvements were made to the Mk 1 design through the (about 12) years it was in production, particularly after the mid-1950s when some of the initial issues became apparent. For many railway workshops these were the first all-steel carriages they had built, the last of the company stock being steel panelling over heavy timber framing, which had its own separate deterioration problems (fortunately without some of the issues that UK builders of stock sent to Africa and Australia encountered where the internal wood framing might be eaten by termites, to the extent of writing the vehicle off!). Body corrosion was a real issue, a principal culprit being leaking steam heating, but also weatherproofing, for which there were a range of advances, alas that included far more sprayed asbestos insulation inside ... and also significant changes to the interiors, timber panelling replaced with melamine, etc. Corrosion of the lower bodysides could be dealt with by just cutting this out and replacing, but after another year or so the result looked notably untidy and amateurish. Hastings dmu stock seemed to have had much of this treatment.
 

Helvellyn

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Window frames were just part of it. I understand a whole series of improvements were made to the Mk 1 design through the (about 12) years it was in production, particularly after the mid-1950s when some of the initial issues became apparent. For many railway workshops these were the first all-steel carriages they had built, the last of the company stock being steel panelling over heavy timber framing, which had its own separate deterioration problems (fortunately without some of the issues that UK builders of stock sent to Africa and Australia encountered where the internal wood framing might be eaten by termites, to the extent of writing the vehicle off!). Body corrosion was a real issue, a principal culprit being leaking steam heating, but also weatherproofing, for which there were a range of advances, alas that included far more sprayed asbestos insulation inside ... and also significant changes to the interiors, timber panelling replaced with melamine, etc. Corrosion of the lower bodysides could be dealt with by just cutting this out and replacing, but after another year or so the result looked notably untidy and amateurish. Hastings dmu stock seemed to have had much of this treatment.
Quite a lot of Commonwealth bogie stock from some of the very last build Mark 1s had asbestos, which meant they were withdrawn in the mid-1980s. This coincided with various parcels vehicles (BGs and Motorail vans) gaining Commonwealth bogies. The Class 411/412 4-CEP/4-BEP refurbishment also accounted for a lot of re-use of Commonwealth bogies.
 

KevinTurvey

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My preference is the commonwealth, slightly noisier than the B4, but also very slightly smoother and very 'damped' IMO.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I suspect I'm probably the only one on here who would rather enjoy being sat directly above a slightly overdue BR1...?
 

hexagon789

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The first ones to be withdrawn would probably mostly have been on the original bogie design in any case, and if asked they might have preferred the lighter bogie and probably had no concern about ride quality at speed! Some preserved lines may have replaced their early Mk1s when later ones became available, particularly those with the separate window frames that were more corrosion-resistant.

Asbestos might be another? I believe certain batches (but not all) had asbestos insulation.
 

randyrippley

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Lets not forget that the class 30/31 uses a three axle variant of the Commonwealth bogie........
 

delt1c

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I suspect I'm probably the only one on here who would rather enjoy being sat directly above a slightly overdue BR1...?
Rather you than me, 2 or 3 hours of being bounced of the ceiling and sides of the cariage are more than I desire, added to which any chance of drinking a coffe would have ( literally) gone out the window ( if it was open).
 
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