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Misuse of free pass!! Help!!

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ikcdab

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There isn't much you can do now. If you accept the charges, then it's best to plead guilty and take it from there. It looks as if you will have to pay something more than £1500, perhaps nearer £2000. At least with a court you can get a payment plan. You have learned an expensive lesson.
 
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santosham

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The paperwork says the rightful holder of the pass was male.

There's also a technicality in that the paperwork does not contain the evidence required to prove it was a compulsory ticket area i.e. which specific notice is the one that TfL alleges was disobeyed leading to the offence?




Did the solicitor already help you write some mitigation to put to TfL? If so, similar information can be given to the court in an attempt to minimise the sentence. (The solicitor could again help you do this. They could also raise the matter of the need to prove the notice was displayed.)
It was my mum’s card. As I received this letter it says the card belongs to a male. That’s what made me surprised. I’m confused at this point(as hearing date is 5th of June) this technical problem in the paperwork would be useful to raise any question.
The solicitor to put further representation needs money while they didn’t point out what you have pointed.
Thank you
 

AlterEgo

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It was my mum’s card. As I received this letter it says the card belongs to a male. That’s what made me surprised. I’m confused at this point(as hearing date is 5th of June) this technical problem in the paperwork would be useful to raise any question.
The solicitor to put further representation needs money while they didn’t point out what you have pointed.
Thank you

So if you challenge the point that the rightful holder was male, and TfL check their paperwork and say "oh yes, sorry, female" - nothing turns on it. What defence or point are you hoping to raise by mentioning it? This would be useful only if you were denying the offence.

I don't see anything in the TfL Bylaws that say a person has to disobey a sign to be in a CTA; you merely have to be caught in one. It may be that TfL has its own rules about where signage should be, but the point is this - you arrived in the CTA where the offence happened, by train, and committed the offence the moment you stepped onto the platform.

Are you pleading not guilty to the offences?
 

santosham

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So if you challenge the point that the rightful holder was male, and TfL check their paperwork and say "oh yes, sorry, female" - nothing turns on it. What defence or point are you hoping to raise by mentioning it? This would be useful only if you were denying the offence.

I don't see anything in the TfL Bylaws that say a person has to disobey a sign to be in a CTA; you merely have to be caught in one. It may be that TfL has its own rules about where signage should be, but the point is this - you arrived in the CTA where the offence happened, by train, and committed the offence the moment you stepped onto the platform.

Are you pleading not guilty to the offences?
Thank you for clarifying.
Yes, I’m pleading guilty.
 

AlterEgo

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Thank you for clarifying.
Yes, I’m pleading guilty.
To clarify, you're pleading guilty - okay. So none of this really makes a difference; you're not trying to make a defence out of it, you accept the offences, and you will be convicted of the single offence and have the remainder of them taken into consideration.

There is so little movement on the level of fine a solicitor would be a waste of money at this point. A fine is linked to your income and there's not a huge deal that can be done about that, bar a small adjustment up or down - but the £1,139 in fares avoided is not something you will be able to dispute given you accept them, nor the surcharge, or prosecution costs which are standard and seem reasonable.
 

lb001

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Hi every valuable members of the forum,
I have received a letter of prosecution to attend the court, please need some advice.
Thank you
question - image 3 shows the 'S9' statement from the officer who submitted the report, and i understand correctly then you are saying that the pass is issued to a female in fact when the S9 says male?

is it possible that your mother has ticket the wrong box when applying/someone else or part of her evidence for the pass has had some information misread or misconstrued? an S9 is generally automatically generated from the officers notes, so unless on TfL's system (or the freedom pass system) your mother is identified as a male i don't see why this has happened.

it might be worth getting her to ring up her council and check, just because there's a part of me that has a feeling this might be the reason it won't be a johnnie cochran moment in court if it is mentioned that this forms part of any defence...
 

Haywain

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it might be worth getting her to ring up her council and check, just because there's a part of me that has a feeling this might be the reason it won't be a johnnie cochran moment in court if it is mentioned that this forms part of any defence...
I do not think there is any chance that the OP is going to get away with this and be found not guilty just because of a minor error like that. The facts of the matter are that they were using a Freedom Pass issued to someone else, and to which they were not entitled.
 

lb001

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I do not think there is any chance that the OP is going to get away with this and be found not guilty just because of a minor error like that. The facts of the matter are that they were using a Freedom Pass issued to someone else, and to which they were not entitled.
oh definitely not, i completely agree. once you're on the TfL conveyor belt of justice and get to the forms OP has posted it generally is a lost cause from what i've seen.

just pointing out to op that i don't think it will make any difference, and more likely it's an administrative error on application rather than protections, because that's just not how the S9s work.
 

Hadders

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Mod note - I've split discussion about the merits of not disclosing income to the court into a separate thread:

 

santosham

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To clarify, you're pleading guilty - okay. So none of this really makes a difference; you're not trying to make a defence out of it, you accept the offences, and you will be convicted of the single offence and have the remainder of them taken into consideration.

There is so little movement on the level of fine a solicitor would be a waste of money at this point. A fine is linked to your income and there's not a huge deal that can be done about that, bar a small adjustment up or down - but the £1,139 in fares avoided is not something you will be able to dispute given you accept them, nor the surcharge, or prosecution costs which are standard and seem reasonable.
Hi there
Sorry to ask again.
As my salary is not fixed or yearly. It’s hourly basis so it varies every month. What amount is the best to put as net income? Any advice?
 

Pushpit

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Hi there
Sorry to ask again.
As my salary is not fixed or yearly. It’s hourly basis so it varies every month. What amount is the best to put as net income? Any advice?
You should take a reasonable estimate, which you can justify if you were challenged. So for example if you averaged the last 3 months or similar, and use that figure on the form, that would seem OK to me, so long as you could show the maths if asked. If that average happens to be fairly close to your salary for April or May then using that figure is also OK. What you must not do is something obviously unreasonable such as using your lowest ever month which is totally unrepresentative. It goes into bands anyway, so the odd pound here or there won't make a difference. If you attempt to deceive the courts about your income it is the sort of thing that will get you into a prison cell faster than your TfL offence.
 

WesternLancer

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Hi there
Sorry to ask again.
As my salary is not fixed or yearly. It’s hourly basis so it varies every month. What amount is the best to put as net income? Any advice?
Mc100 form from gov.uk I think. Does it have instructions for how to deal with that situation as it must be common.

However @Pushpit gives good advice above.
 

santosham

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Hi good morning everyone,
Back again for some advice.
Attended the court on 5th of June and the court asked to pay in total of £1800 within 28 days. There were few options to pay.
2 days earlier went to the bank and I chose to deposit the amount in the given bank account with NATWEST. the bank gave me just the deposit slip with total amount but doesnot state the receiver’s details. I raised the question if that’s normal? The clerk said yes!
Is there any place where I can get confirmation about the payment ?
Thank you again
 

Hadders

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Thanks for updating us on your case. Can I just check a few things to help us advise other people in future cases.

You mentioned upthread that you used a solicitor (cost £1.2k) but despite this TfL still decided to prosecute
The court you were told you had to pay a total of £1,800 within 28 days (I assume this is in addition to the £1.2k you had to pay to the solicitor?)
You've been to the bank and paid the £1,800. As far as I know when this happens you usually get a counterfoil stamped by the cashier. Did you get anything like this?
 

AlterEgo

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You've been to the bank and paid the £1,800. As far as I know when this happens you usually get a counterfoil stamped by the cashier. Did you get anything like this?
Natwest give you a slip of paper, no stamp, no counterfoil, if you pay in using someone's bank account details. I've never heard of someone paying in cash at a bank to pay a court fine - this is by far the least secure way of paying; you really should be doing it online. I can only imagine the OP wants to conceal the nature of the payment from their bank statement for some reason.

OP should contact the court to ensure the money has been received. It's really important the reference is on the payment so the accountants know whose fine it is!
 

WesternLancer

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Natwest give you a slip of paper, no stamp, no counterfoil, if you pay in using someone's bank account details. I've never heard of someone paying in cash at a bank to pay a court fine - this is by far the least secure way of paying; you really should be doing it online. I can only imagine the OP wants to conceal the nature of the payment from their bank statement for some reason.

OP should contact the court to ensure the money has been received. It's really important the reference is on the payment so the accountants know whose fine it is!
Yes, good advice - I think @santosham should get in touch with the court (presumably the section that deals with fines and payments) and seek a written confirmation that they have received this payment and that the fine is paid and matters settled / concluded.

Get that in writing (wither by e-mail or by post) - then keep a copy of it safe long term (keep it for at least 6 years)

Is there any place where I can get confirmation about the payment ?
Confirmation should hopefully be available from the court itself - so ring / e-mail or go in person to the court.
 

santosham

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Thanks for updating us on your case. Can I just check a few things to help us advise other people in future cases.

You mentioned upthread that you used a solicitor (cost £1.2k) but despite this TfL still decided to prosecute
The court you were told you had to pay a total of £1,800 within 28 days (I assume this is in addition to the £1.2k you had to pay to the solicitor?)
You've been to the bank and paid the £1,800. As far as I know when this happens you usually get a counterfoil stamped by the cashier. Did you
Natwest give you a slip of paper, no stamp, no counterfoil, if you pay in using someone's bank account details. I've never heard of someone paying in cash at a bank to pay a court fine - this is by far the least secure way of paying; you really should be doing it online. I can only imagine the OP wants to conceal the nature of the payment from their bank statement for some reason.

OP should contact the court to ensure the money has been received. It's really important the reference is on the payment so the accountants know whose fine it is!
Yes, no stamp ,not anything just the the slip with total amount paid,,in the reference the clerk put the case reference number.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thanks for updating us on your case. Can I just check a few things to help us advise other people in future cases.

You mentioned upthread that you used a solicitor (cost £1.2k) but despite this TfL still decided to prosecute
The court you were told you had to pay a total of £1,800 within 28 days (I assume this is in addition to the £1.2k you had to pay to the solicitor?)
You've been to the bank and paid the £1,800. As far as I know when this happens you usually get a counterfoil stamped by the cashier. Did you get anything like this?
£1200 solicitor
£1800 court decision (incl compensation and everything)
Yes , I paid in cash at the bank counter because there was a paper given by the court where I had an option to pay immediate cash at the NATWEST Counter.
 

WesternLancer

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I'm not sure why you are recommending this - the court will record that the fine etc has been paid.
Because in my own case I favour retaining my own proofs as I find large organisations (eg banks and courts) can occasionally loose records of things or it involve time consuming processes to obtain them when asked for copies at unknown points of time in future.

In this case it seems the OP has paid the fine in cash at a bank branch over the counter (according to some instructions received with the fine I assume) and is seeking to be confident that the fine has now been paid and the matter concluded. Only by contacting the court - I assume - can the OP be confident that the cash paid at the bank counter has made it to the court and been recoded against the OP's court fine record.

Seems sensible to me to make that check and keep a record of it. Of course if the alternative advice is there is no need the OP can weigh up what they prefer to do.
 

santosham

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Hi everyone
For your kind attention this paper says where I can make the cash payment.


 

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styles

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Hi everyone
For your kind attention this paper says where I can make the cash payment.


Presumably you took that form with you, and they'll have noted down the case reference number blocked out, and used that as the payment reference?

In any case, if you want to confirm the court has received the money and marked your fine as paid, you'll have to contact the court and ask. You can ask them to email or post to you a written confirmation once they've verbally confirmed it's all sorted.
 
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