Misuse of annual Gold Card

[DaveNewcastle]

This amount isn't necessarily quite as high as it might seem at first, because a legitimate course of events in pursuit of the same goal could have been for the OP's colleague to return the annual season to a ticket office for a partial refund, give the money to the OP, and then that money could have been used to legitimately purchase monthly seasons.

. . . . I just wanted to point out that the loss to Southern really only amounts to an admin fee and two times the pro-rata difference in prices between annual and other seasons.

An interesting and entirely theoretical scenario.
However, no prosecutor would attempt to assess damages in this way, and certainly would not adjust the quantum downwards in view of the actions of a third party, which might have taken place but which did not.

The Railway Company will assess the quantum on the basis of the actual journeys taken in so far as they can be agreed between the parties or otherwise assessed.

 

[Lex]

An interesting and entirely theoretical scenario.
However, no prosecutor would attempt to assess damages in this way, and certainly would not adjust the quantum downwards in view of the actions of a third party, which might have taken place but which did not.

The Railway Company will assess the quantum on the basis of the actual journeys taken in so far as they can be agreed between the parties or otherwise assessed.

Thank you for your input Dave, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by the above - can you explain in a little more detail? I would be interested to hear your opinion on the likely outcome of my incident, as you also seem very knowledgeable in these sorts of cases, if I may ask?

here's a reminder:
I came into possession of an annual ticket valid from sept 14 (worth £2.6k) that was not my own and used it. I was stopped, cautioned and told to expect a letter to explain myself. It was clear I was at fault, and this is a first offence, both on the railways and in general.

Thank you everyone

 

[jkdd77]

Best case (well assuming you don't get completely off due to them losing the paperwork): you will be asked to pay for a season ticket from the expiry of your own legitimate ticket until you were seen by an inspector, plus some additional costs

Worst case: you will be prosecuted for defrauding the railway

In between case: you will be asked to pay about £1,500 being the cost of a season ticket from September to when it was confiscated, including something towards costs

My understanding is that, if the opportunity to purchase a valid season ticket prior to boarding was spurned, as it was, the TOC is entitled to assess its loss on the basis of n undiscounted Anytime (Day) Returns, where n is the number of return journeys made without a valid ticket. This figure is likely to be significantly higher than the cost of a season ticket would have been, but that is the consequence of not buying a valid ticket before boarding.

This is in addition to the administrative costs that the TOC will doubtless have incurred in dealing with the matter.

 

[extendedpaul]

Thank you for your input Dave, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by the above - can you explain in a little more detail? I would be interested to hear your opinion on the likely outcome of my incident, as you also seem very knowledgeable in these sorts of cases, if I may ask?

here's a reminder:
I came into possession of an annual ticket valid from sept 14 (worth £2.6k) that was not my own and used it. I was stopped, cautioned and told to expect a letter to explain myself. It was clear I was at fault, and this is a first offence, both on the railways and in general.

Thank you everyone

Why did your colleague give you the gold card in the first place ? It seems a very odd thing to do when it could have been surrendered for a substantial four figure sum, enough to buy you a pretty amazing Christmas gift !

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thank you for your input Dave, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by the above - can you explain in a little more detail?

I was attempting to explain that when the Railway Company considers the monetary value of the loss they have incurred (i.e. the quantum of the damages), then they will estimate the number of journeys you have made using that season ticket and multiply by the appropriate fare for that journey. This is an amount which they would ask a Court to recover from you. It would also be an amount they would be recovering from you if you and the Company every reached an agreement to dispose of the matter by way of an administrative settlement as an alternative to a hearing in Court.

I was attempting to challenge the opinion by Be3G that the Company's Revenue Protection people would reduce the amount that they sought to recover from you because of the imaginary cost they might have repaid to the original holder of the ticket if they had been asked to refund an unused period of the ticket's validity.

How they reach an estimate of the number of journeys will be informed by the information available to them about your travel, and where that information is hard to clarify, then an estimate will be made and you would expect to have an opportunity to provide evidence to challenge that estimate.

I would be interested to hear your opinion on the likely outcome of my incident, . . . .

I agree with the general range of outcomes suggested by island and that the middle range of costs are the most likely.

 

[Lex]

Thanks everyone,

This has been very helpful. I guess the best thing to do is to now wait to be contacted by the TOC and take it from there.

If I may, I will ask for further advice then? Thanks again all those who responded.

 

[najaB]

If I may, I will ask for further advice then? Thanks again all those who responded.

Yes, please to update us on what happens next.

 

[island]

My understanding is that, if the opportunity to purchase a valid season ticket prior to boarding was spurned, as it was, the TOC is entitled to assess its loss on the basis of n undiscounted Anytime (Day) Returns, where n is the number of return journeys made without a valid ticket. This figure is likely to be significantly higher than the cost of a season ticket would have been, but that is the consequence of not buying a valid ticket before boarding.

This is in addition to the administrative costs that the TOC will doubtless have incurred in dealing with the matter.

It might, or it might not, and any court involved might agree with the assessment, or it might not.

Nowhere did I say that my possible outcomes were exhaustive.

 

[Be3G]

I was attempting to challenge the opinion by Be3G that the Company's Revenue Protection people would reduce the amount that they sought to recover from you because of the imaginary cost they might have repaid to the original holder of the ticket if they had been asked to refund an unused period of the ticket's validity.

Perhaps I should make it clear that my earlier post was not from the point of view of what the revenue protection department might do or think, nor do I believe it even suggested as such. I was merely attempting to consider how much money, from what I suppose you could call a moral standpoint, the company had actually lost by the OP's (and their colleague's) actions.

 

[Flamingo]

I can't help thinking what a generous friend, giving away a ticket they could have received a large refund on...

 

[Be3G]

I think some people are simply unaware that refunds are available on partially unused tickets – I've mentioned that they are to a couple of people over the years, and they've been surprised. I suspect that the railways would sell more annual tickets if it were more widely known, as I get the impression that some people shy away from them not because of the upfront cost, but because they think that once they've spent the money that's it, and if their plans (e.g. place of employment) change then it's tough luck.

 

[Lex]

Hi everyone,

Firstly, thanks for everyone's input regarding my scenario - it was much appreciated.

Secondly, I have an update! In the last couple of days, following a face to face interview (which I did not expect?), I have managed to settle with the TOC. It's stung me for a pretty big chunk, but it's much better than going to court, and I can actually sleep now! I was treated extremely kindly during this whole process, I must add. In my experience, it seemed apparent that recuperating losses was the priority and there was at no point any sense of the TOC looking to "make an example" of me.

For those who are in a similar position - my case was pretty damn serious, and I got through it (albeit with a justifiably stiff financial penalty!)

Thanks again all

 

[najaB]

Hi everyone,

Firstly, thanks for everyone's input regarding my scenario - it was much appreciated.

Secondly, I have an update! In the last couple of days, following a face to face interview (which I did not expect?), I have managed to settle with the TOC. It's stung me for a pretty big chunk, but it's much better than going to court, and I can actually sleep now!

Glad we could be of some assistance. I'm also pleased to see that the TOC were firm but fair in their dealing with the matter and that you have managed to put it behind you.

 

[Fare-Cop]

My understanding is that, if the opportunity to purchase a valid season ticket prior to boarding was spurned, as it was, the TOC is entitled to assess its loss on the basis of n undiscounted Anytime (Day) Returns, where n is the number of return journeys made without a valid ticket. This figure is likely to be significantly higher than the cost of a season ticket would have been, but that is the consequence of not buying a valid ticket before boarding.

This is in addition to the administrative costs that the TOC will doubtless have incurred in dealing with the matter.

Yes, in simple terms if the matter were to proceed to Summons the most commonly used calculation of fare loss is one unpaid single fare in each direction for each day travelled, but the TOC prosecutors may, if they wish, use the season ticket rate instead.