Mistakenly travelled with expired Railcard

[Kya]

Hello,
During the ticket check on the train, while travelling from Leeds to Bristol via Cross country. I noticed that the other part of my rail card was missing (the part that had the expiration date). When asked, I gave the personnel the other part that had my passport and told her to check their system as I was sure my rail card was valid. She requested for my id which I gave her confidently. Her colleague also looked at the other part of the rail card and noted that it looks genuine but she refused, saying it may have expired 5 years ago. She took my details, photographed my train tickets and driving license. The personnel gave me another ticket which I refused initially, stating that she should confirm the validity of my rail card by checking their database but later accepted.

Getting home, after thoroughly checking my old phone, I found the picture of the railcard. To my surprise, the rail card has expired 4 days before the date of the incident. The ticket I used that day was purchased 14 days before the incident/travel date through the trainpal app. My railcard was linked to the trainline app and I never got any railcard expiry notification email nor text.

I recently, received a letter from cross country prosecution unit asking that I provide a copy of my valid railcard within 14 days for them to look into the issue further as I was unable to provide the supporting documentation of my railway ticket while travelling.

Should I printout and send the picture of the railcard to them and possibly the purchase transaction receipt from my bank? Is it advisable to call the number on the letter to discuss this? Kindly assist with suggestions on how I can resolve this issue, I do not mind paying up the remaining cost of the ticket and administrative cost if any. I really do not want any dent on my record as this was an oversight. Thank you

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload a copy of the letter you have received with your personal details and any reference numbers obscured?

The Train Operating Company will not discuss this matter with you over the phone.

You will need to write a reply to the TOC and we suggest that you follow the guidance given by @Hadders for the content of the letter.

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

As the railcard was expired at the time of travel the ticket you purchased was invalid. Whist this may seem harsh those are the rules.

The TOC will in high probability ask for the full fare for the journey you took not just the difference between the fare paid and the fare due. They will also ask for an admin fee typically about £150. If this out of court settlement is offered then you would be advised to accept it and pay the sum due without delay., Payment would settle the matter and no further action would be taken.

 

[John R]

If you are offered an out of court settlement then it will probably be based on the Anytime Single fare of £156.70, with no offset for what you did pay for your ticket. So you should expect to pay around £300 once the admin fee is added.

Harsh maybe, but I suspect the investigator handling your case will think it “convenient” that you didn’t have the part of your railcard with the expiry date on it.

As @Titfield advises, if offered a settlement then you should take it, as the alternative will be a prosecution and a slam dunk conviction, as you clearly did not have a valid ticket. That will be even more costly and also result in you having a criminal record, which clearly you don’t want.

 

[johnny_t]

Just an aside but (as you found out) its not really reasonable to expect an on-train inspector to have instant online access to the whole of the railcard database, purely based on your identity. That's why you get something to show on demand.

 

[Cuthbert]

Just an aside but (as you found out) its not really reasonable to expect an on-train inspector to have instant online access to the whole of the railcard database, purely based on your identity. That's why you get something to show on demand.

I once tried to do that working as an RPI.
I called the Railcard General enquiries took 20 minutes to get through and they did not ha e any details of the person having one.
The person was a customer I have known for many years and he showed me his receipt.

I checked as he asked what would happen if he could not show the Railcard and is there a database. I had just started 12 years ago when I tried.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just a few comments below to add to what has been said.

It's worth alerting (warning?) you that cross Country currently seem to use an external contractor to do the follow up on these for them - IRCAS / ITAL could be the company - they take a harsh line and can be tricky to deal with - I would strongly advise you getting advice from here on each step of the way to get the least worst outcome you can achieve on this and to seek to avoid this getting escalated to prosecution (which is the worst outcome but should be avoidable if you engage with them correctly) - hope the below is of help

Hello,
During the ticket check on the train, while travelling from Leeds to Bristol via Cross country. I noticed that the other part of my rail card was missing (the part that had the expiration date). When asked, I gave the personnel the other part that had my passport and told her to check their system

They don't really have an integrated system sadly, perhaps due to the fact that Railcards can be sold and issued for a variety of different retailers as well as at stations in hard copy version and also given out with things like student bank accounts etc

as I was sure my rail card was valid. She requested for my id which I gave her confidently. Her colleague also looked at the other part of the rail card and noted that it looks genuine but she refused, saying it may have expired 5 years ago. She took my details, photographed my train tickets and driving license. The personnel gave me another ticket which I refused initially, stating that she should confirm the validity of my rail card by checking their database but later accepted.

Given what transpired of course it was wrong for you to be so confident all was OK as you subsequently found out you did not in fact have a valid railcard, but I doubt anything will come of your over confidence in that aspect.

Getting home, after thoroughly checking my old phone, I found the picture of the railcard. To my surprise, the rail card has expired 4 days before the date of the incident. The ticket I used that day was purchased 14 days before the incident/travel date through the trainpal app. My railcard was linked to the trainline app and I never got any railcard expiry notification email nor text.

They don't seem to send them - we see lots of cases on here of people not being reminded of Railcard expiry and falling foul of the same problem as you. You need to note in your calendar yourself for your own records in future. It's unfortunate but a life lesson is that you can't 100% rely on other organisations to remind you of things like this.

Perhaps improbably I bought my railcard in hard copy at a station ticket office, filled in my e-mail address on the paper application form, and I do get expiry reminders (2 of them - one ahead of expiry and one on the day saying it's now expired)

I recently, received a letter from cross country prosecution unit asking that I provide a copy of my valid railcard within 14 days for them to look into the issue further as I was unable to provide the supporting documentation of my railway ticket while travelling.

This is because the railways has a 'forgotten railcard policy' which means that you are allowed to travel without your railcard once in 12 months and be able to send it afterwards as proof of validity without any sanction.

Should I printout and send the picture of the railcard to them and possibly the purchase transaction receipt from my bank?

Not really, no - the Railcard had expired when you travelled so there is little point in doing this. You do not need a railcard to be valid when you buy a ticket - but it MUST be valid when you travel with the ticket you buy.

The only point in doing this would be as part of your response to show that the Railcard had only recently expired and it was a genuine oversight on your part to have failed to renew it before the journey. You need to make it clear in your apology to them that you 'had no intention to deliberately travel without a valid railcard' and that this was a genuine mistake (ie not a deliberate fare evasion, which it clearly wasn't).

One thing you can do if not done already is buy a new Railcard (if you are entitled to one still), because this is then something you can say to them is a practical step you have taken to stop this problem happening again.

Is it advisable to call the number on the letter to discuss this?

No - you must do everything possible in writing, you must keep copies of what they have sent you and copies of your response until the matter is concluded

Kindly assist with suggestions on how I can resolve this issue,

See the advice on how to reply posted above, post your draft written response up here and people can check your wording to get it as good as it can be to avoid them escalating this to prosecution

I do not mind paying up the remaining cost of the ticket and administrative cost if any

You have to be prepared to pay for a completely new ticket at the undiscounted full Anytime Single Fare (which will be a punitive costs sadly) - the Railway regards a ticket discounted with a railcard but no valid railcard held as having no validity. If you are lucky they may give some allowance for the fare already paid, but we can advise on how to carefully ask if they will consider that in the reply you need to write

. I really do not want any dent on my record as this was an oversight. Thank you

Sadly that's already happened - by having your details taken you will be on their database as someone who has travelled without a valid ticket. If that crops up again they are more likely to think you have 'not learned a lesson' so going forward always make 100% sure your ticket is correct. Ask station staff before boarding the train if you are ever unsure.

It's bad luck you were so confident your railcard was valid, because given the length of the journey the best thing you could have done after being checked was to have got off the train at the next station, bought a new railcard (and a new ticket with a legit discount if your ticket was specific to that one train, but if it was not specific you could have continued to use the same ticket) and then got the next train. This would probably have reduced the amount you will probably now have to pay - but that's water under the bridge of course.

anyway - upload what they have sent to you and you will get advise on what to say in reply which you can draft up over the weekend etc

None of the above is intending to unduly alarm you - but I think best for you to know what to expect and how to deal with it most effectively - which with help from here should be possible

 

[Haywain]

Should I printout and send the picture of the railcard to them and possibly the purchase transaction receipt from my bank?

Further to the comments above, a photo of a railcard is not considered to be valid and if you had produced an in-date photo of the railcard at the time you would still have been liable to be reported for potential prosecution.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Kya. Welcome to the forum. Presume that you haven't made any other journeys during the short period of time between your previous railcard expiring and you being stopped on your recent journey from Leeds to Bristol?

 

[Kya]

Thank you all for your response so far. I made a trip from Bristol to leeds the previous day(21/10/24) before the incident but was not asked for my railcard. Other trips made were before the expiration. After the incident, I have removed the rail card option and recently purchased new tickets which I have not used.

Attached is the letter I was sent.

Kindly advise if below response is okay.

Top of the day to you and thank you for your letter.

It is with a deep sense of regret that I write this letter to you. I have a train card which sadly I cannot find the complete part, but was able to see the soft copy on my abandoned old phone after that unfortunate incident. Being the first time, I am getting a rail card, I added it to my application which I believe I should get a reminder via email or SMS when it's close to expiry, but this didn't happen.

I bought the ticket on the 8th October, 2024 from trainpal as I believed the rail card was still valid not knowing that it would expire on the 18th Oct, 2024(4 days) before my journey as I really trusted to get a reminder/notification when it’s close to expiration.

Unfortunately, this incident has had a toll on me and has made me learnt to mark my calendars rather than waiting for automated notifications which has now become my greatest mistake.

Being the first time and would definitely be the last time, I hereby strongly appeal that I am considered, and this case dropped.

As a result of this, I am happy to pay whatever difference or full payment and any other cost.

I sincerely apologise for any inconveniences this issue might have caused.

Attached is a copy of the printout of the rail card from my mobile.

Thank you in anticipated positive response.

 

[John R]

Top of the day to you

This should be a formal letter - if you don't play your cards right they could prosecute you, so the whole letter needs to be much more formal, starting right here. Make sure you include the reference number too.

It is with a deep sense of regret that I write this letter to you. I have a train card which sadly I cannot find the complete part, but was able to see the soft copy on my abandoned old phone after that unfortunate incident. Being the first time, I am getting a rail card, I added it to my application which I believe I should get a reminder via email or SMS when it's close to expiry, but this didn't happen.

I bought the ticket on the 8th October, 2024 from trainpal as I believed the rail card was still valid not knowing that it would expire on the 18th Oct, 2024(4 days) before my journey as I really trusted to get a reminder/notification when it’s close to expiration.

Just say you're very sorry that you overlooked your railcard had expired. Doesn't need to be much more than that.

Unfortunately, this incident has had a toll on me and has made me learnt to mark my calendars rather than waiting for automated notifications which has now become my greatest mistake.

They won't care whether or not it's taken a toll on you or whether it's your greatest mistake. Just let them know that you will mark your calendar, so they know you are doing something so it doesn't happen again.

Being the first time and would definitely be the last time, I hereby strongly appeal that I am considered, and this case dropped.

As a result of this, I am happy to pay whatever difference or full payment and any other cost.

I sincerely apologise for any inconveniences this issue might have caused.

Attached is a copy of the printout of the rail card from my mobile.

Thank you in anticipated positive response.

You might be happy to pay whatever difference, but they will decide. So ask very nicely "I would be very grateful if you would consider an out of court settlement, to avoid this matter going to prosecution".

Finally, it's quite likely that they will also include the trip the day earlier, which would unfortunately add another £156.70 to the settlement amount. It really will be a heavy price to pay for a simple mistake, but that would be the usual way they deal with this.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Kindly advise if below response is okay.

Top of the day to you and thank you for your letter.

It is with a deep sense of regret that I write this letter to you. I have a train card which sadly I cannot find the complete part, but was able to see the soft copy on my abandoned old phone after that unfortunate incident. Being the first time, I am getting a rail card, I added it to my application which I believe I should get a reminder via email or SMS when it's close to expiry, but this didn't happen.

I bought the ticket on the 8th October, 2024 from trainpal as I believed the rail card was still valid not knowing that it would expire on the 18th Oct, 2024(4 days) before my journey as I really trusted to get a reminder/notification when it’s close to expiration.

Unfortunately, this incident has had a toll on me and has made me learnt to mark my calendars rather than waiting for automated notifications which has now become my greatest mistake.

Being the first time and would definitely be the last time, I hereby strongly appeal that I am considered, and this case dropped.

As a result of this, I am happy to pay whatever difference or full payment and any other cost.

I sincerely apologise for any inconveniences this issue might have caused.

Attached is a copy of the printout of the rail card from my mobile.

Thank you in anticipated positive response.

Is this how you normally write letters, or essays or similar? Because if not, I would suggest that you try to do two things
- write as you naturally would, but
- at the same time be more formal.

So while how you start the letter won't make much difference (whoever reads it will be interested in what you have to say in the body, not how you address them), something like 'Dear Sir or Madam' sounds more respectful than 'Top of the day to you'. But against that 'It is with a deep sense of regret that I write this letter to you' is unlikely to be how you speak or write normally. If you're trying to say that you are in the wrong then something like 'Thank you for your letter: I know that I am in the wrong so I am writing to try and sort things out' sounds rather more natural.

Much the same applies through the rest of the letter: you're saying more or less the right things in more or less the right order, but the English is a bit strangled.

My suggestion would be to have another go at writing the letter and come back to us, and then we can make detailed comments on what might be improved.

And don't worry if it's not perfect: you just want to write something that is reasonably courteous and may get the railway on your side, so it doesn't have to be good enough to win the Nobel Prize for literature.

 

[Haywain]

After the incident, I have removed the rail card option and recently purchased new tickets which I have not used.

Do you still qualify for a railcard? And, if so, have you purchased a new railcard? If so you should mention this in your letter as it indicates that you have taken appropriate steps (I know you've mentioned marking your calendar, but alone this doesn't really explain anything).

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all for your response so far. I made a trip from Bristol to leeds the previous day(21/10/24) before the incident but was not asked for my railcard. Other trips made were before the expiration. After the incident, I have removed the rail card option and recently purchased new tickets which I have not used.

Attached is the letter I was sent.

Kindly advise if below response is okay.

Top of the day to you and thank you for your letter.

It is with a deep sense of regret that I write this letter to you. I have a train card which sadly I cannot find the complete part, but was able to see the soft copy on my abandoned old phone after that unfortunate incident. Being the first time, I am getting a rail card, I added it to my application which I believe I should get a reminder via email or SMS when it's close to expiry, but this didn't happen.

I bought the ticket on the 8th October, 2024 from trainpal as I believed the rail card was still valid not knowing that it would expire on the 18th Oct, 2024(4 days) before my journey as I really trusted to get a reminder/notification when it’s close to expiration.

Unfortunately, this incident has had a toll on me and has made me learnt to mark my calendars rather than waiting for automated notifications which has now become my greatest mistake.

Being the first time and would definitely be the last time, I hereby strongly appeal that I am considered, and this case dropped.

As a result of this, I am happy to pay whatever difference or full payment and any other cost.

I sincerely apologise for any inconveniences this issue might have caused.

Attached is a copy of the printout of the rail card from my mobile.

Thank you in anticipated positive response.

I agree with @John R on how you can improve this draft, you really need to get this right - as you can't prove you did in fact have a valid railcard ITAL will happily start threating you with prosecution in court and you will be guilty of the offence they will prosecute you for (travel without a valid ticket) - if you want to have a go at an edit happy to comment on a redraft but to get you going I would suggest you start like this for example:

Dear Sir / Madam

Your Reference: [insert their ref number}

I am writing in respect of your letter of xxx / recent letter concerning a ticket check carried out on 22 October 2024 when I was unable to show my Railcard.

When I travelled I firmly believed I had a valid Railcard and explained this to the staff concerned, even though I was unable to show it on the journey. On later checking I discovered my Railcard had expired on XXX date. I enclose a copy of this Railcard for your information.

Please be assured this was a genuine oversight and mistake on my part for which I sincerely apologise. I had no intention to deliberately travel without a valid Railcard. I have subsequently renewed my Railcard to prevent this problem happening again (if you have in fact done that and it would be a good idea to do so unless you are no longer entitled to one)

......

 

[johnny_t]

Kindly advise if below response is okay.

Top of the day to you and thank you for your letter.

My first thought was that starting a letter with 'Top of the day to you' is ridiculous, but did get me wondering (Bearing in mind that I am no expert at all, it won't be me paying the money, and others will probably know much more)....

Does a well written letter usually get any better outcome than a poorly written letter ? If you wrote this and gave whoever was dealing with it a small laugh in the morning, is there possibly a chance they would be more inclined to say 'What the Hell' and go easy on you than if they were reading the hundredth letter in a row saying how very sorry you are and have learnt your lesson about revenue protection, etc. ?

 

[AlterEgo]

My first thought was that starting a letter with 'Top of the day to you' is ridiculous, but did get me wondering (Bearing in mind that I am no expert at all, it won't be me paying the money, and others will probably know much more)....

Does a well written letter usually get any better outcome than a poorly written letter ? If you wrote this and gave whoever was dealing with it a small laugh in the morning, is there possibly a chance they would be more inclined to say 'What the Hell' and go easy on you than if they were reading the hundredth letter in a row saying how very sorry you are and have learnt your lesson about revenue protection, etc. ?

This company basically settles every time anyway, but "top of the day to you" is ridiculous and we shouldn't invite people who have English as a second or third language to ridicule themselves.

 

[Haywain]

Does a well written letter usually get any better outcome than a poorly written letter ? If you wrote this and gave whoever was dealing with it a small laugh in the morning, is there possibly a chance they would be more inclined to say 'What the Hell' and go easy on you than if they were reading the hundredth letter in a row saying how very sorry you are and have learnt your lesson about revenue protection, etc. ?

This question seems to be cropping up a lot lately but this is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly. Yes, you might cause someone to laugh but you might equally cause them to think that you don't understand or are not bothered about the seriousness of the matter, and they might consider that good enough reason to not offer a settlement. It's best not to take that chance.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This question seems to be cropping up a lot lately but this is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly. Yes, you might cause someone to laugh but you might equally cause them to think that you don't understand or are not bothered about the seriousness of the matter, and they might consider that good enough reason to not offer a settlement. It's best not to take that chance.

I was about to reply to @johnny_t 's query but @Haywain has said what I was going to say, so there's no need to repeat it. But to my mind, this is one of those points where we don't want to get too tied down.

As it happens, my job (which is not with the railways) does involve dealing with incoming contacts from customers who may be hoping that my employer will change its view of what's happening - so like people who seek our advice here, they want to influence me in their favour. And from where I sit, I don't mind too much if the correspondence arrives saying any of Dear Sir/Madam/Sir or Madam/Sirs/Fawkes/Fawkes Cat/Mx Cat/Employer/Team Name/To whom it may concern/Honoured Sir. If it comes in saying Hi Guys/Mate/Fawkes/Oi! Fishface/Top of the day to you or similar I will still try to take the letter (or email or whatever) seriously - but I'll be fighting an uphill battle.

Let's not get too worried about getting a precise form of address used - but it is worth making it clear that you are writing a letter which is intended to be respectful and business-like, and is going to someone who is not a friend but someone you wish to be polite to.

 

[WesternLancer]

This company basically settles every time anyway,

That's not the case in my view - we've had a recent ITAL case listed for court action because the passenger failed to print off a ticket. they have increased the settlement offer requested, perhaps due to the inadequate nature of the passengers initial reply, and then prepared court papers.
This thread:

Crosscountry unexpected settlement demand

On the 28th July my girlfriend and I needed to travel from Newcastle upon Tyne to Darlington following a cycle ride from Haltwhistle. I'm not a regular train user so do find navigation of the rail and associated ticketing systems a little daunting especially when tired from a lot of physical...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2024 ==

My first thought was that starting a letter with 'Top of the day to you' is ridiculous, but did get me wondering (Bearing in mind that I am no expert at all, it won't be me paying the money, and others will probably know much more)....

Does a well written letter usually get any better outcome than a poorly written letter ? If you wrote this and gave whoever was dealing with it a small laugh in the morning, is there possibly a chance they would be more inclined to say 'What the Hell' and go easy on you than if they were reading the hundredth letter in a row saying how very sorry you are and have learnt your lesson about revenue protection, etc. ?

I see your point but my personal view (and that is all this is) is that a well written but clearly worded letter sends a signal the person understands the process, is engaging with it, and will pursue it effectively - and it's thus worth taking seriously as the recipient.