Mistake on my part

[Shoebury]

Hi I am wondering if someone can offer me some advice. My daughter goes to college and travels between Shoeburyness and Southend on the c2c line, we purchase a monthly ticket for her each month and the odd days between she buys a return. Last month a friend of ours who travels the same journey had just purchased a monthly ticket only to find out 2 days later she was being made redundant. Now the mistake on my part was to offer to buy the ticket for my daughter to use. Paid her the price on the ticket only for my daughter to be stopped by a ticket inspector. The names (didn't know they was on the ticket) on the ticket and photo card didn't match up, the inspector was very rude and downright terrible in his dealing with the matter. To the point where he took down a description of her even though he took her photo and off of her. When it came to distinguishing marks he noted a nose piercing and added I bet your parents are proud of you for having that. He told her they would go away and look at her purchase history with a view to prosecuting her. Today we received a letter from c2c rail prosecution dept. Telling us for evading her fare, they wanted £110 towards prosecution costs and the £2.60 fare. If however I pay within 21days it will be reduced to £65 plus the £2.60 fare.

I know some will say pay up but it was a genuine mistake the fare as such had been paid she has a purchase history to show regular buying of tickets. The person we bought the ticket from is happy to write a letter confirming she don't use the ticket, her company will provide written confirmation of her redundancy. Is is not just a case of profit protection and prosecution costs just means paying for having the guard on trains.

 

[bb21]

£65? If I were you I would pay up pronto.

Yes, you made a mistake, and it is being dealt with very leniently. The Photocard number on the ticket should have been a clue, but either way there are sometimes consequences to mistakes.

None of the other things you are trying to pick on is relevant.

Sorry I can't give you better news.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, you should pay this before they change their mind. Season tickets are not transferrable, and resale would be looked on particularly strongly - it is a certain RoRA prosecution with a criminal record if they took it to court.

For future reference, season tickets *can* be refunded in part, down to the fares that would have been paid for the travel actually undertaken.

If you attempt to fight this the likely outcome is a much larger fine and a criminal record for your daughter. You *really* want to avoid this. Pay it and leave it at that.

 

[mikeg]

Is is not just a case of profit protection and prosecution costs just means paying for having the guard on trains.

Partly, yes, though it's fair enough. Every year the railways lose approximately £240 million through fare evasion according to ATOC (an organisation I dislike but have no reason to disbelieve on this one) and the costs of detecting this fare evasion are often significant. Also, it sounds like your daughter was dealt with by a revenue protection inspector, though I could be wrong. There are always associated admin costs with such things, sometimes it's relatively simple, other times its not and the TOCs are entitled I believe to ask for damages providing it is reflective of the typical costs of detection and prosecution. They're being very reasonable in offering a discount, as this reflects the fact they're waiting and will only start preparing a brief for prosecution later (this can have significant legal costs), a possible reason they are chargin you more if you settle later.

Season tickets are clearly marked as non transferable and it clearly says on the photocard (or it did last time I had a season ticket) that it is only to be used with a ticket where the numbers match up.

Mistake of judgment? Yes. But I wouldn't class it as an honest mistake and nor will the courts. It is the traveller's responsibility and nobody else's to ensure they have valid tickets, further more the non-transferability of tickets where this is a condition is enforceable under the regulation of railways act 1889, especially when the ticket is partly used by another: See the case of Browning v Floyd.

A side note: Funny how the inspectors are always rude, perhaps he was just telling her what she wasn't wanting to hear? The only rude RPIs I have met are the STM ones working for Northern (some, not all), and even then it's clearly down to a lack of training and understanding than anything worse. Last RPIs I saw, some time ago, were on London Midland and were even thanking the passengers for travelling with the company when issuing penalty fares!

 

[najaB]

I know some will say pay up but it was a genuine mistake...

I'm sorry, but it wasn't a mistake. It may have been an error in judgement, maybe. The mere fact that you have to have a photocard to use a season ticket should be enough to clue you in to the fact that they are for use by a single, named person.

You can fight this if you want, but you will lose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would go as far as to say "do not let your error damage your daughter's future by getting her a criminal record due to your own error and following stubbornness".

 

[DaleCooper]

You can fight this if you want, but you will lose.

...and when you lose it will be your daughter who gets the criminal record because of your "mistake", for her sake pay up.

 

[cuccir]

Frankly as well, even if he was rude - well that doesn't make him a good person, it might not be what the company would want, but it doesn't change the situation: it's not illegal to be rude, but it is illegal to transfer train tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frankly as well, even if he was rude - well that doesn't make him a good person, it might not be what the company would want, but it doesn't change the situation: it's not illegal to be rude, but it is illegal to transfer train tickets.

If unhappy with staff conduct, pay *and* make a complaint, of course. But pay.

 

[LexyBoy]

Agreed - £65 is very lenient. Whilst there was no intention to evade the fare on this occasion, sharing of season tickets is widespread and does lead to loss of income, so some TOCs are pretty hot on it (OTOH, I’ve never been asked for mine in 5 years of commuting on GWR). There are plenty of journeys for which a Penalty Fare of more than that could be issued for an “honest mistake” – at least half of which would be demanded on the spot.

It would take some serious bungling on the part of c2c not to win a prosecution if you don’t accept their offer. Simply travelling without a valid ticket is a criminal offense – deliberate or not.

For future reference, season tickets can be bought for any period from a month to a year – this will work out cheaper than buying one month plus day tickets to fill gaps between holidays etc. As already noted, they are also refundable (less the cost of the travel made).

 

[Antman]

Frankly as well, even if he was rude - well that doesn't make him a good person, it might not be what the company would want, but it doesn't change the situation: it's not illegal to be rude, but it is illegal to transfer train tickets.

There is no excuse for rudeness although obviously we only have one side of the story here but I would make a complaint to the TOC or even the BTP if you feel that is appropriate.

Quite honestly I would have thought it obvious that you shouldn't be using a ticket with somebody elses photograph on?

 

[Agent_c]

You've got two seperate issues, and given the nature of one of them, you can't really combine the two for a single wholistic outcome.

As far as the settlement offer goes. Take it, pay it, don't let em rescind it.

However, how the RPI acted does seem to be inappropriate, and I base that on the "your parents must be proud of that" comment. You may want to consider complaining to the TOC, but I would stress and make it clear if you do you are not complaining about the imposition of a fine, merely how the RPI acted.

 

[Haywain]

There is no excuse for rudeness although obviously we only have one side of the story here but I would make a complaint to the TOC or even the BTP if you feel that is appropriate.

Seriously, you consider a bit of (alledged) rudeness as something to trouble the police with? They really do have better things to do.

 

[Antman]

Seriously, you consider a bit of (alledged) rudeness as something to trouble the police with? They really do have better things to do.

It would depend upon exactly what was said, I wasn't there and presumably you weren't either?

Funny how this notion of the police having better things to do is used to sweep a lot of things under the carpet:roll:

 

[Haywain]

It would depend upon exactly what was said, I wasn't there and presumably you weren't either?

Funny how this notion of the police having better things to do is used to sweep a lot of things under the carpet:roll:

Of course I wasn't there, but what offence do you consider might have ben committed? If the law wasn't broken it isn't a police matter, but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[Antman]

Of course I wasn't there, but what offence do you consider might have ben committed? If the law wasn't broken it isn't a police matter, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Well I witnessed an incident sometime ago where RPI's spoke to a lone female in a quite inappropriate way and the matter was looked into by BTP.

 

[najaB]

Funny how this notion of the police having better things to do is used to sweep a lot of things under the carpet:roll:

I could be wrong, but sarcasm is still legal isn't it?

 

[bb21]

Taking the OP's words goes both ways, so let's not add speculation to the story and just go by what the OP said. From that, I see no reason why the police would be remotely interested.

 

[tony6499]

£65 is cheap, you have a result there and if you don't pay it then you're taking a massive gamble

 

[Desiro Boy]

You made a bad mistake,pay the fine and move on.

 

[Oswyntail]

...and when you lose it will be your daughter who gets the criminal record because of your "mistake", for her sake pay up.

I agree with everything written so far.
Simple innocent theoretical question: I realise the offence is the travelling part, but would it ever be possible to transfer the "record" to the father (in the manner of the charge being corrected when the owner of the speeding car was not driving), on the grounds that a child (college age = under 18?) might reasonably expect a parent not to induce her to break the law? Does the father have any responsibility for the crime?

 

[island]

I agree with everything written so far.
Simple innocent theoretical question: I realise the offence is the travelling part, but would it ever be possible to transfer the "record" to the father (in the manner of the charge being corrected when the owner of the speeding car was not driving), on the grounds that a child (college age = under 18?) might reasonably expect a parent not to induce her to break the law? Does the father have any responsibility for the crime?

There is no way to "transfer" anything, though the father could be additionally prosecuted for the offences of buying and transferring a ticket other than from an authorised person.

Add mine to the voices saying "pay up and count yourself lucky it is that lenient".

 

[455driver]

There is no excuse for rudeness although obviously we only have one side of the story here but I would make a complaint to the TOC or even the BTP if you feel that is appropriate.

Quite honestly I would have thought it obvious that you shouldn't be using a ticket with somebody elses photograph on?

Don't confuse rudeness with being forthright, the RPI would have asked some quite blunt question which your daughter would have been very uneasy answering.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And don't forget if you fight it, the person selling you the ticket will also be prosecuted.

 

[cjmillsnun]

£65? If I were you I would pay up pronto.

Yes, you made a mistake, and it is being dealt with very leniently. The Photocard number on the ticket should have been a clue, but either way there are sometimes consequences to mistakes.

None of the other things you are trying to pick on is relevant.

Sorry I can't give you better news.

Agreed.

Fighting it would not do your daughter any favours. Pay now and it will go away.

If you then want to make a complaint about the RPI you can do so to customer services, however that should be dealt with separately to the settlement being offered.