Missing Tube link between Waterloo and West Hampstead Thameslink

[miklcct]

From the discussion of a previous thread, it seems that a Tube link between Waterloo and West Hampstead Thameslink is missing which can serve as the quickest connection between Waterloo and Thameslink northbound.

Is this an oversight? Are there any other useful Tube link missing?

 

[WideRanger]

Maybe I have missed the point you are trying to make, but the Jubilee Line goes from Waterloo to West Hampstead, and it is a very short walk from the Tube Station to both the London Overground and Thameslink stations.

 

[miklcct]

Maybe I have missed the point you are trying to make, but the Jubilee Line goes from Waterloo to West Hampstead, and it is a very short walk from the Tube Station to both the London Overground and Thameslink stations.

The Tube link doesn't appear in the National Rail timetable data, therefore no accredited journey planners can suggest me taking the Tube direct from Waterloo to West Hampstead Thameslink in order to change to the northbound Thameslink.

 

[danm14]

Maybe I have missed the point you are trying to make, but the Jubilee Line goes from Waterloo to West Hampstead, and it is a very short walk from the Tube Station to both the London Overground and Thameslink stations.

There is a physical tube link from Waterloo to West Hampstead via the Jubilee Line. There is no corresponding entry in the National Rail timetable data to represent that link.

This means that even though this is often the quickest route, a journey planner cannot plan a journey from SWR to Thameslink northbound via the Jubilee Line from Waterloo to West Hampstead, because as far as a journey planner is concerned this route doesn't exist.

It will instead route passengers via a slower route that does "exist" (presumably London Bridge).

 

[Magdalia]

There's no direct route between Waterloo and Kings Cross/St Pancras.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's no direct route between Waterloo and Kings Cross/St Pancras.

It's a cross-platform change at either Green Park or Oxford Circus (I always forget which )... or if you're on SWR suburban simply get off one stop early at Vauxhall and use the Victoria line.

 

[30907]

A curious situation - for eg Raynes Park to Mill Hill Broadway TfL seems to offer Waterloo-West Hampstead by default whereas NR prefers Vauxhall-St Pancras (or non-tube routes, such as the North London Line).
TfL has its own interchange times - I wonder if NR's very generous settings rule the route out rather than it being deliberately excluded?
Is it possible to force NRE (or any planner) to show the Jubilee Line route?

 

[andreading]

Raynes Park to West Hampstead is possible with a change at Wimbledon to Thameslink. Even TfL will ignore this if you pick the wrong time in the 1/2 hour. I used to need to travel from Wimbledon Chase to Elephant and Castle and of three routes Bus to Wimbledon, train to Waterloo and Tube to Elephant an Castle, Bus to South Wimbledon and Tube to E&C
or Thameslink direct it would not select Thameslink unless the time was within 15 minutes of the service. Indeed one option often offered was bus from Wimbledon Chase station to Wimbledon to catch the Thameslink train that had stopped at Wimbledon Chase. Its time to get the Wimbledon loop service upgraded to every 15 minutes so it works in journey planners better.

 

[londonteacher]

The Tube link doesn't appear in the National Rail timetable data, therefore no accredited journey planners can suggest me taking the Tube direct from Waterloo to West Hampstead Thameslink in order to change to the northbound Thameslink.

You can purchase a ticket from Waterloo to West Hampstead Thameslink on the Avanti app. It suggests Waterloo to Blackfriars on the underground, and then Thameslink to West Hampstead. Anytime day single for £7.

Although planners don’t give direct, the TFL one does.

 

[miklcct]

You can purchase a ticket from Waterloo to West Hampstead Thameslink on the Avanti app. It suggests Waterloo to Blackfriars on the underground, and then Thameslink to West Hampstead. Anytime day single for £7.

Although planners don’t give direct, the TFL one does.

A curious situation - for eg Raynes Park to Mill Hill Broadway TfL seems to offer Waterloo-West Hampstead by default whereas NR prefers Vauxhall-St Pancras (or non-tube routes, such as the North London Line).
TfL has its own interchange times - I wonder if NR's very generous settings rule the route out rather than it being deliberately excluded?
Is it possible to force NRE (or any planner) to show the Jubilee Line route?

It's not possible to force NRE to do so. This is exactly the reason why this thread exists.

The implication is that it's not possible to get a through Advance ticket between reservable trains involving such changes as the reservation will always be from St Pancras or Blackfriars, forcing me to go to St Pancras to take the train, and if connecting from an unreserved connection to a mandatory reservation starting from Waterloo I will not be protected from Tube delays if I take the Tube from West Hampstead.

Of course you are free to ignore the NRE if you are holding a flexible ticket (where West Hampstead is defined as a permitted cross-London station despite no fixed links exist), or using Pay As You Go (where you don't need to care about permitted routes at all).

 

[JonathanH]

The implication is that it's not possible to get a through Advance ticket between reservable trains involving such changes as the reservation will always be from St Pancras or Blackfriars, forcing me to go to St Pancras to take the train, and if connecting from an unreserved connection to a mandatory reservation starting from Waterloo I will not be protected from Tube delays if I take the Tube from West Hampstead.

I suspect that if advance tickets were routed via West Hampstead for Waterloo to Thameslink journeys it would not be what most passengers wanted to do, preferring to connect at Central London stations they feel more familiar with.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its time to get the Wimbledon loop service upgraded to every 15 minutes so it works in journey planners better.

If the only way to get the journey planner to work is by doubling the frequency, I'd suggest that the journey planner is the problem- not necessarily the frequency per se.

Only ever used the Wimbledon loop at busy times once, and that was well over a decade ago. It may well justify a 15 minute interval service, but "making journey planners work better" isn't a particularly persuasive argument.

 

[miklcct]

If the only way to get the journey planner to work is by doubling the frequency, I'd suggest that the journey planner is the problem- not necessarily the frequency per se.

Only ever used the Wimbledon loop at busy times once, and that was well over a decade ago. It may well justify a 15 minute interval service, but "making journey planners work better" isn't a particularly persuasive argument.

The Wimbledon change does show up by default for some late-night journeys, changing twice from long-distance train at Woking to suburban train and Wimbledon to Thameslink.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The implication is that it's not possible to get a through Advance ticket between reservable trains involving such changes as the reservation will always be from St Pancras or Blackfriars, forcing me to go to St Pancras to take the train, and if connecting from an unreserved connection to a mandatory reservation starting from Waterloo I will not be protected from Tube delays if I take the Tube from West Hampstead.

What Tube delays do you anticipate?

 

[cactustwirly]

It's not possible to force NRE to do so. This is exactly the reason why this thread exists.

The implication is that it's not possible to get a through Advance ticket between reservable trains involving such changes as the reservation will always be from St Pancras or Blackfriars, forcing me to go to St Pancras to take the train, and if connecting from an unreserved connection to a mandatory reservation starting from Waterloo I will not be protected from Tube delays if I take the Tube from West Hampstead.

Of course you are free to ignore the NRE if you are holding a flexible ticket (where West Hampstead is defined as a permitted cross-London station despite no fixed links exist), or using Pay As You Go (where you don't need to care about permitted routes at all).

None of the Thameslink trains are reservable so I don't see what the problem is?

 

[miklcct]

None of the Thameslink trains are reservable so I don't see what the problem is?

Those trains running between Brighton and Bedford are reservable.

 

[JonathanH]

None of the Thameslink trains are reservable so I don't see what the problem is?

Not true any more. Bedford to Brighton, Bedford to Gatwick, Peterborough to Horsham, Cambridge to Brighton all reservable on a counted place basis now.

Obviously this can be circumvented by using one of the stopping train routes which aren't reservable but the OP appears to always be looking to keep their journeys as quick as possible.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a physical tube link from Waterloo to West Hampstead via the Jubilee Line. There is no corresponding entry in the National Rail timetable data to represent that link.

It really ought to. West Hampstead to West Hampstead Thameslink is a 5 minute fixed link connection and perfectly valid as a connection.

 

[30907]

It really ought to. West Hampstead to West Hampstead Thameslink is a 5 minute fixed link connection and perfectly valid as a connection.

West Hampstead is a valid interchange for a "+" ticket. Someone holding an appropriate ticket can therefore travel that way if they wish - though they can't have advertised connections that are faster than via STP.
The problem would be if the reservations for Advances on connecting Thameslink trains were enforced so as to prevent passengers using WHP. It would be interesting to know what TL's policy is.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem would be if the reservations for Advances on connecting Thameslink trains were enforced so as to prevent passengers using WHP. It would be interesting to know what TL's policy is.

Reservations for advances are always enforced in journey planners through the availability of the required quotas.

It is, in almost all cases, one of those things where if you asked, the only possible response would be that the policy is that you have to follow the booked itinerary.

 

[30907]

It is, in almost all cases, one of those things where if you asked, the only possible response would be that the policy is that you have to follow the booked itinerary.

My question is, what would actually happen at WH Thameslink if our OP showed up with their Advance from Radlett to Parkstone, claiming (rightly) that they wished to use the Jubilee?

 

[JonathanH]

My question is, what would actually happen at WH Thameslink if our OP showed up with their Advance from Radlett to Parkstone, claiming (rightly) that they wished to use the Jubilee?

I imagine it would either work the barriers and the passenger would proceed on their way without trouble or it wouldn't work the barriers and the gateline staff would let the passenger through.

I can't imagine 'official policy' on advance tickets and reservations / reservable and non-reservable trains feeding its way down to gateline staff.

 

[miklcct]

My question is, what would actually happen at WH Thameslink if our OP showed up with their Advance from Radlett to Parkstone, claiming (rightly) that they wished to use the Jubilee?

I actually tried once in the reverse direction. I showed up at WH Thameslink with an Advance ticket with destination Cricklewood. The Thameslink barrier rejected the ticket but the staff just waved me through. The Thameslink train is unreservable in this situation.

 

[Kite159]

As long as the Thameslink train calls at West Hampstead, then it will probably be the quickest way to reach Waterloo, after all the Thameslink core isn't the fastest

 

[hwl]

The implication is that it's not possible to get a through Advance ticket between reservable trains involving such changes as the reservation will always be from St Pancras or Blackfriars, forcing me to go to St Pancras to take the train, and if connecting from an unreserved connection to a mandatory reservation starting from Waterloo I will not be protected from Tube delays if I take the Tube from West Hampstead.

It is very simple:
TfL don't want to take on the potential cost of delay risk with advanced tickets for the £3.20 or 2.60 (Peak / Off-peak) fare they receive. Why would they?