Missing Diesel Classes ?

[MK Tom]

I would assume most people know about the old DMU numbers in the second generation area from Wikipedia, where it gets in the way of anyone trying to use it to learn about actual classes.

Interesting about the 152s being planned as new build, I didn't realise that.

In terms of number re-use, class 70 is the obvious one, as well as 41, 43 and now 88 if you think back to the old electric 58 plan.

 

[dubscottie]

Class 34 was allocated to what became the class 33/1..

 

[Bright Boy]

Class 34 was allocated to what became the class 33/1..

That's right, Thanks dubscottie, although I already mentioned this in post 10 in this thread, but it is nice to have it confirmed !

Do you know if sub-class 33/2 was originally allocated a class of its own ?
I would have thought that more likely than the 33/1's in the first place since they had narrower bodies !!
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In terms of number re-use, class 70 is the obvious one, as well as 41, 43 and now 88 if you think back to the old electric 58 plan.

The original Class 70's did not use Tops no.s, (CC1 & CC2, then 20001-20003) so although there has been a re-use of the Class no. there could be no possible clash of no.s, especially as they were withdrawn & scrapped 1968-69.

Class 88 was allocated for a class it's true, however it didn't get past the design board, so it was never used and free to be used another time.

Here's another thing, now that you ( and others) mention the HST power cars, why have the Eurostar 373 power cars not been given an Electric Loco no. ?, or are they using the 73 class no.s on paper (or computer) but not worn ?

By removing the 1st no. e.g the power car off 373005 would come out as 73005, although this is currently in use
but the power car off 373217 would be 73217 which has not been used

It would be nice if there was some consistency !

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 33/34 thing, and the 175s, do show the inconsistencies when compared with the 144s for example, with the 3-car units being 144014-023 rather than 144101-110.

 

[MK Tom]

That's right, Thanks dubscottie, although I already mentioned this in post 10 in this thread, but it is nice to have it confirmed !

Do you know if sub-class 33/2 was originally allocated a class of its own ?
I would have thought that more likely than the 33/1's in the first place since they had narrower bodies !!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The original Class 70's did not use Tops no.s, (CC1 & CC2, then 20001-20003) so although there has been a re-use of the Class no. there could be no possible clash of no.s, especially as they were withdrawn & scrapped 1968-69.

Class 88 was allocated for a class it's true, however it didn't get past the design board, so it was never used and free to be used another time.

Here's another thing, now that you ( and others) mention the HST power cars, why have the Eurostar 373 power cars not been given an Electric Loco no. ?, or are they using the 73 class no.s on paper (or computer) but not worn ?

By removing the 1st no. e.g the power car off 373005 would come out as 73005, although this is currently in use
but the power car off 373217 would be 73217 which has not been used

It would be nice if there was some consistency !

Eurostars really are fixed sets though. Some of the loco equipment is in the front of the first carriage and the carriages share bogies. The odd thing with them is the way they're formed of two half-sets.

 

[Bright Boy]

Eurostars really are fixed sets though. Some of the loco equipment is in the front of the first carriage and the carriages share bogies. The odd thing with them is the way they're formed of two half-sets.

I agree, its difficult to classify them as a loco when they are fixed to a unit at least semi-permanently.

Is it feasible that they can work apart from the unit ?

 

[Helvellyn]

There was a thread on here about the Lancaster-Morecambe electric line that shut under Beeching. The EMUs used on that line were allocated Class 301 for TOPS but were scrapped before ever taking up unit numbers.

Class 316 EMUs were originally meant to be a PEP style unit for the PIC-VIC link in Manchester. I believe this also explains why there are gaps in the coach numbers issued to the PEP style units (313/314/315/507/508) where these would have been allocated.

On the SR, Buffet fitted units originally had different classifications. Class 412 (4-BEP) was Class 410; Class 422 (4-BIG) was Class 420; and Class 432 (4-REP) was Class 430. The classifications were changed for TOPS because the SR was using the last four numbers of the set number as the unit number, and they didn't want unit numbers starting with a '0' - for example, 4-REP 3001 under TOPS would have been 430001, but using the last four numbers would have made it 0001. As 432001, it only carried the last four numbers and was thus renumbered 2001 (from 3001).

Class 491 was the 3-TC/4-TC units. These became Class 438 (4x8 for Trailer) to match up as a 43x Class alongside the REPs with which they worked.

Class 455 units were originally going to be Class 510 (In the London Midland Region d.c. EMU classification). I can only think they jumped from Class 508 to 510 just like the DEMU classes jumped from 207 to 210.

With locomotives, Class 75 was reserved for a super Electro-Diesel (ED) locomotive (Class 76-79 being d.c. overhead electric locomotives and 80-96 being a.c. overhead electric locomotives). Not sure why they didn't use this for the Class 73 rebuilds given these are now effectively a Super ED.

Class 93 was going to the locomotives for use with the Mark 5 coaching stock that would have formed the InterCity 250 sets for use on the West Coast Mainline.

 

[D365]

Class 316 EMUs were originally meant to be a PEP style unit for the PIC-VIC link in Manchester. I believe this also explains why there are gaps in the coach numbers issued to the PEP style units (313/314/315/507/508) where these would have been allocated.

'Class 316' was also proposed for a 4-car variant of the Class 313, as it was thought initially that the BR 'City Widened Lines' to Moorgate were unsuitable for OHLE. Although the lines south of Kentish Town were made suitable for 25kV AC, the initially allocated Class 317/1s ended up being replaced by the (now soon to be outgoing) dual-voltage Class 319 upon commencement of the present Thameslink service.

 

[dubscottie]

That's right, Thanks dubscottie, although I already mentioned this in post 10 in this thread, but it is nice to have it confirmed !

Do you know if sub-class 33/2 was originally allocated a class of its own ?
I would have thought that more likely than the 33/1's in the first place since they had narrower bodies !!

I only skimmed through the tread so didn't spot your mention. From what I can remember it was because the 33/1 was a few tons heavier than the 33/0 & 33/2.

Also as the 33/1's conversions were pulled at random from the main class it would make them easier to tell apart while the D65xx numbers were still in use.

I do have somewhere the full list of tops loco classes.. I cant remember where though and I have lots of stuff. Wouldn't know where to even start looking for it!
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I agree, its difficult to classify them as a loco when they are fixed to a unit at least semi-permanently.

Is it feasible that they can work apart from the unit ?

One car did when brand new. They are however classed as DM's (driving motors) so not technically a loco.. As were the HST power cars (DMB for early builds and DM for the ones without guards space).

Do individual Eurostar vehicles not have 6 digits though?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Class 455 units were originally going to be Class 510 (In the London Midland Region d.c. EMU classification).

That was a very late change; for some years after their introduction many of the 455/8s carried internal stickers which did in fact read "Class 510"; I was shown a few by some of the train crews during layovers at Waterloo and elsewhere.

 

[dubscottie]

The proposed single car version of the 156 was to be new build, not conversions IIRC, so this would not have been an issue.

I have seen an article in RAIL that said they intended to convert 156's to single cars. The 155 was chosen as its body (bus parts) was easier to alter than the all steel 156 body.

WYPTE was looking for 10 x 2 car units of class 155 or 156, but both Leyland and Met-Cam said no as the production lines (at the parts suppliers) had shut down even although the last units were still being delivered.

So there was no chance of a new build of single car 156's either.

It would be uneconomic to restart making parts for a small build.

For the same reason the class 157 died. Not enough orders to make it viable.

That's why WYPTE got 10 158's..

Also remember the 161 being quoted as the class number for a "super Networker" for the Waterloo - Exeter line. They got 158's in disguise instead!

 

[Kentish Paul]

Your main point is correct, but Westerns were class 52: Class 43 was used for the North British built D800 series Warships.

Interestingly class 41 was used for both the prototype HST and the original North British D600 warships.

 

[59CosG95]

The fact that many MUs now have numbers in the unused slots (i.e. cl390s have 691xx, 694xx, 695xx, 696xx, 653xx, 689xx, 688xx, 697xx, 698xx, 699xx and 692xx) means that a lot of potential classes are restricted to the no. of locos in that class. The fact that Pendos take up every single member of Class 69 bar 690xx means that only 100 locos in that class can be built, theoretically.

 

[MK Tom]

Does it matter if DMU vehicles and locos overlap? I'm thinking of all the Class 121 Bubble Cars that were also Deltics...

 

[Bright Boy]

I only skimmed through the tread so didn't spot your mention. From what I can remember it was because the 33/1 was a few tons heavier than the 33/0 & 33/2.

Also as the 33/1's conversions were pulled at random from the main class it would make them easier to tell apart while the D65xx numbers were still in use.


Do individual Eurostar vehicles not have 6 digits though?

Thanks for the info mate, I understand what you mean about the 33/1s

Eurostar power cars have 4 digits on their bodyside, i.e. (37)3006 with the first 2 numbers not displayed, I don't know about the rest of the stock though, never paid much notice

 

[4-COR 3142]

though the HST "Class 43" wasn't originally a locomotive, "43xxx" was the carriage number range for the power cars of the Class 253/Class 254 DMUs

Glorified DMU power car never a locomotive. Quick though........

 

[Helvellyn]

Does it matter if DMU vehicles and locos overlap? I'm thinking of all the Class 121 Bubble Cars that were also Deltics...

The Deltics were withdrawn before this overlap became an issue. It's why several types of coaching stock were renumbered in the mid-1980s: -

• 14xxx BFKs renumbered in 17xxx series to avoid clash with SR EPB DMBSO vehicles.
• 156xx-159xx CKs renumbered in 76xx-79xx series to avoid clash with SR EPB TS/TSO vehicles.
• 160xx-162xx CKs renumbered in 70xx-72xx series to avoid clash with SR EPB DTS/DTSO vehicles.
• 25xxx SKs renumbered in 18xxx series to avoid clash with Class 25 locomotives.
• 26xxx SKs renumbered in 19xxx series to avoid clash with Class 26 locomotives.
• 81xxx BGs (Gangwayed brakevans) renumbered in 84xxx series to avoid clashing with Class 81 locomotives.
• 855xx Newspaper vans renumbered in 940xx series to avoid clashing with Class 85 locomotives.
• 86xxx GUVs (General Utility Vans) renumbered in 93xxx series to avoid clashing with Class 86 locomotives.

Later, a smal number of 600xx series DEMU vehicles were renumbered to avoid clashing with Class 60 locomotives; some 5910x Class 101 trailer coaches were renumbered to avoid clashing with Class 59/1 locomotives; and 920xx BGs (Gangwayed Brakevans) were renumbered in the 929xx series to avoid clashing with Class 92 locomotives.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Also remember the 161 being quoted as the class number for a "super Networker" for the Waterloo - Exeter line. They got 158's in disguise instead!

Iirc the class allocated for networker turbo was 171, and the electric variant for kent coast to replace the CEP's was 471. Instead the 159's were brought on board as an existing order could be adapted quickly to finish off the 50's while the 47's could soldier on until the full introduction of the 166's

Neither the 171 or 471 made it off the production lines as all train procurement stopped in the run up to privatisation. However the turbostar fleet is pretty much as close to what was planned as essentially they are developed from the networker design by the train builder, ABB DaimlerBenz Transportation (adtranz, now Bombardier, basically BREL!)

 

[dubscottie]

Iirc the class allocated for networker turbo was 171, and the electric variant for kent coast to replace the CEP's was 471. Instead the 159's were brought on board as an existing order could be adapted quickly to finish off the 50's while the 47's could soldier on until the full introduction of the 166's

Neither the 171 or 471 made it off the production lines as all train procurement stopped in the run up to privatisation. However the turbostar fleet is pretty much as close to what was planned as essentially they are developed from the networker design by the train builder, ABB DaimlerBenz Transportation (adtranz, now Bombardier, basically BREL!)

Might be right about the 171.. I think the 161 was a proposed 6 car "mega 156" with bigger engines. I need to dig out the mag but I am sure I have seen both used for proposed stock for the Exeter line. Both mentioned in the 1988-1991 period. As the 156 production line shut down they looked at the "new" Networker.

99% sure it was in RAIL. If I find it can I scan and post giving credit to the mag?

 

[MK Tom]

The Deltics were withdrawn before this overlap became an issue. It's why several types of coaching stock were renumbered in the mid-1980s: -

• 14xxx BFKs renumbered in 17xxx series to avoid clash with SR EPB DMBSO vehicles.
• 156xx-159xx CKs renumbered in 76xx-79xx series to avoid clash with SR EPB TS/TSO vehicles.
• 160xx-162xx CKs renumbered in 70xx-72xx series to avoid clash with SR EPB DTS/DTSO vehicles.
• 25xxx SKs renumbered in 18xxx series to avoid clash with Class 25 locomotives.
• 26xxx SKs renumbered in 19xxx series to avoid clash with Class 26 locomotives.
• 81xxx BGs (Gangwayed brakevans) renumbered in 84xxx series to avoid clashing with Class 81 locomotives.
• 855xx Newspaper vans renumbered in 940xx series to avoid clashing with Class 85 locomotives.
• 86xxx GUVs (General Utility Vans) renumbered in 93xxx series to avoid clashing with Class 86 locomotives.

Later, a smal number of 600xx series DEMU vehicles were renumbered to avoid clashing with Class 60 locomotives; some 5910x Class 101 trailer coaches were renumbered to avoid clashing with Class 59/1 locomotives; and 920xx BGs (Gangwayed Brakevans) were renumbered in the 929xx series to avoid clashing with Class 92 locomotives.

Seeing as the loco/unit TOPS is built around this class structure with originally clear definitions of what each bit means, you'd think randomly numbering coaching stock into the same ranges was a massive oversight.

 

[D6975]

Seeing as the loco/unit TOPS is built around this class structure with originally clear definitions of what each bit means, you'd think randomly numbering coaching stock into the same ranges was a massive oversight.

Yes, you would have thought that switching to a 6 digit system for coaches would have been the answer back then as it has indeed become. But then hindsight is a wonderful thing...
The renumbering of all DMU driving trailers from the 56xxx series to 54xxx was TOPS induces too, to avoid clashes with grids.

 

[BananaRepublic]

BR Class 99

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_99




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Loco Classes used, or proposed to be used, twice.

Class 21 - original 1959-67 & the ECR (EWS) Euro locos in 2004+
Class 22 - original 1959-72 & the SNCF BB22200's temporarily used through the Channel tunnel 1993-94
Class 43 - original 1960-71 Warship & the production HST power cars
Class 48 - original 1965-91? Class 47 derivatives & the proposed 1980's BR freight loco
Class 70 - 1940's Southern Railway prototypes & the present day Class 5 diesel
Class 88 - 1980's proposed BR electric loco & the (currently being built) Vossloh electrics for DRS

Class 41 has been allocated 3 times -
1. Warship,
2. HST prototype and
3. the proposed 1990's BR diesel loco (based on the Class 60 but with lower powered engines for passenger & freight work).

Other BR proposed designs that were not built...
Class 38 - 1980's plan to replace the Class 37's from the late 1980's/early 90's onwards.
Class 62 & 65 - design work on these two locos was suspended prior to the early/mid 190's privatisation.

The Class 93 and Mk5's (IC250 project) for the WCML were also cancelled in the run up to privatisation.
The Class 390 Pendolino's eventually got that gig.

 

[Bright Boy]

Loco Classes used, or proposed to be used, twice.

Class 21 - original 1959-67 & the ECR (EWS) Euro locos in 2004+
Class 22 - original 1959-72 & the SNCF BB22200's temporarily used through the Channel tunnel 1993-94
Class 43 - original 1960-71 Warship & the production HST power cars
Class 48 - original 1965-91? Class 47 derivatives & the proposed 1980's BR freight loco
Class 70 - 1940's Southern Railway prototypes & the present day Class 5 diesel
Class 88 - 1980's proposed BR electric loco & the (currently being built) Vossloh electrics for DRS

Class 41 has been allocated 3 times -
1. Warship,
2. HST prototype and
3. the proposed 1990's BR diesel loco (based on the Class 60 but with lower powered engines for passenger & freight work).

Other BR proposed designs that were not built...
Class 38 - 1980's plan to replace the Class 37's from the late 1980's/early 90's onwards.
Class 62 & 65 - design work on these two locos was suspended prior to the early/mid 190's privatisation.

The Class 93 and Mk5's (IC250 project) for the WCML were also cancelled in the run up to privatisation.
The Class 390 Pendolino's eventually got that gig.

Thanks for that info, now do you know anything about Classes 32, 34, 36, 39, 49, 51, 54, 75 ?

 

[dubscottie]

Thanks for that info, now do you know anything about Classes 32, 34, 36, 39, 49, 51, 54, 75 ?

Well we worked out the class 34.. Now 33/1

Would the 75 have been given to "Tommy" the original EM1? Just a thought.. I don't know how copyright lasts, but have an article from 1974 about TOPS at Inverness..

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Class 51 has already been mentioned, a longer length 50 with uprated deltic engines

54 may well have been one of the type 4 prototypes, falcon or eagle. (There were 3 prototypes, the other prototype being DP2) One of them was class 53 but at 80mph in the dark on the ECML i cant remember right now!

It could also be HS4000....

 

[Ash Bridge]

Class 51 has already been mentioned, a longer length 50 with uprated deltic engines

54 may well have been one of the type 4 prototypes, falcon or eagle. (There were 3 prototypes, the other prototype being DP2) One of them was class 53 but at 80mph in the dark on the ECML i cant remember right now!

It could also be HS4000....

Class 53 was the Brush Falcon, and another prototype was the BR&CW Lion which had similarities to the class 47, a further prototype was the Clayton type 3, DHP1 (like a class 17 on steroids)with twin Rolls Royce engines and hydraulic transmission.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Thats right, now i remember, thanks. Falcon, eagle and lion, they were the 3 i was thinking of. Eagle and Lion had the sulzer engines used in the 47 whereas falcon used the western engines. Falcon and lion also had class 47 style bodywork. Lion was outshopped in white which made it very distinctive. The electrics in the 3 came from brush or BRCW

DP2 was the class 50 prototype in a deltic body which saw the uprated and developed engine seen in the 40, however the control system was far simpler and did not involve the complex (for its time) electrics the 50 employed. If i understand correctly it also utilised a different generator to the troublesome one later used in the 50's. DP2 was unfortunately wrecked in the Thirsk derailment in 1967 but its components were subsequently used in one of the production 50's

 

[Ash Bridge]

Thats right, now i remember, thanks. Falcon, eagle and lion, they were the 3 i was thinking of. Eagle and Lion had the sulzer engines used in the 47 whereas falcon used the western engines. Falcon and lion also had class 47 style bodywork. Lion was outshopped in white which made it very distinctive. The electrics in the 3 came from brush or BRCW

DP2 was the class 50 prototype in a deltic body which saw the uprated and developed engine seen in the 40, however the control system was far simpler and did not involve the complex (for its time) electrics the 50 employed. If i understand correctly it also utilised a different generator to the troublesome one later used in the 50's. DP2 was unfortunately wrecked in the Thirsk derailment in 1967 but its components were subsequently used in one of the production 50's

Yes what I've read is very similar to what you state about the 50's, amazing to think that EE power unit was a developed version of what started out in the LMS pioneers and was developed on up to as late as the 56 & 58's !

 

[Bright Boy]

I have had info for 2 different Class 34's one which I read somewhere was 10000/10001, (10000 had been withdrawn by 1967 but 10001 was still in use) can't remember where I got that ?

The other I read on a list of Classes from a magazine, the article was in recent years but it stated an article form that period, was that Class 34 became Class 33/1 which Dubscottie said also.

I am still trying to find another source to confirm whether it was 33/1 (favourite) or 10001 ?

I don't know a prototype loco named Eagle ? just an 08 shunter.

10800 was Hawk, HS4000 was Kestrel, D0260 was Lion and D0280 was Falcon

D0280 Falcon became D1200 and was classified as Class 53

D0260 Lion was returned to BRCW in 1963, scrapped 1963/64? so is unlikely to have been given a class no. in 1967.

10800 Hawk was sold to Brush in 1961 so again unlikely to have been classified. However it was used for research as a static, it was used sporadically for testing and did not cease use until 1968 (scrapped 1976) but since it was rated at 1,400hp it would fall into Type 2 category, no.s 21-32. Perhaps that could have been as Class 32? as it is the only no. left in that series.

HS4000 Kestrel could possibly be classified as Class 54 as that was in service (on loan from Hawker Siddely/Brush) just after classification in 1967, however the Class 54 could have been for a Type 4 loco ? HS4000 was a Type 5 at 4000hp, The next Type 5 classification available at the time was 56, which was used later on obviously.

DP2 (un-named) was in service, when this classification table was decided upon, and I suggested it could be Class 49 as 1; it precedes Class 50 (which is what it was the prototype for) and 2; it fits into the power range, however it was withdrawn and scrapped in 1967 after having a smash

DHP1 (un-named) was returned to Clayton in 1964 so unlikely to be classified, it wasn't broken up until 1967, however it was in scrap condition in the few years before, also this would have been a Type 3 as it was rated at 1,500hp

Any ideas or confirmation about those ?

All other diesel prototypes were withdrawn and scrapped by 1967 except Deltic which was withdrawn 1961 but preserved.

Both MK Tom and gimmea50anyday have said that Class 51 was for a super Deltic ? I have not seen any info about that, but Class 51 would be for a Type 4 Loco, what was the Super Deltic's proposed power rating ?, if it was more than a Deltic surely it would have been classified as a Type 5 loco i.e. 55 and up (in 1967)

 

[gazthomas]

Glorified DMU power car never a locomotive. Quick though........

Controversial, especially when recovering an errant class 57/6!