Missing Circle trains

[AnkleBoots]

Circle trains are only every 10 minutes, and you just miss one and the next one doesn't turn up, that's 19 minutes to wait.

However the announcements just say that everything is running well, and the boards don't show the cancellation.

Is it possible to check that the next train is going to turn up? Because if not, it is better to start making plans for a different route as soon as possible.

 

[jopsuk]

there are very few journies where missing a Circle service means that long a wait. Across the whole of the north you have H&C services and in part Metropolitan services, along the south there are District line trains. The only time you ever need to make plans for a different route is if you need to get a train trough Aldgate.

Anyhow, beyond information available in the station? I don't think so.

 

[[.n]]

there are very few journies where missing a Circle service means that long a wait. Across the whole of the north you have H&C services and in part Metropolitan services, along the south there are District line trains. The only time you ever need to make plans for a different route is if you need to get a train trough Aldgate.

Anyhow, beyond information available in the station? I don't think so.

Or a train to High Street Kensington for example is a huge hassle if you dont know

 

[edwin_m]

It would be good if there was more information available on the actual departures of the sub-surface lines before you reach the platform and preferably before you get to the station.

For example I travel reasonably often beween Kings Cross St Pancras and Aldgate East, which are linked by the Hammersmith and City nominally every 10min or so. Going eastbound is OK as I'll wait for the H&C if one is shown on the screen otherwise I'll head for Aldgate which is only a short walk away. However on the way back I've started heading for Aldgate every time as the departure indicators at Aldgate East are pretty poor and the H&C seems more erratic in that direction. I've waited 20min at Aldgate East before now, never knowing if it's worth cutting my losses and going via Tower Hill, and with the added pressure of having a specific train to catch from St Pancras.

So something similar to the National Rail departure boards would be very helpful for certain sub-surface journeys when deciding between routes or even nearby stations. Though I guess in my particular case it would rely on the same data (or lack of data) feed as the Aldgate East platform indicators so wouldn't be any more accurate.

 

[Mojo]

Live departures are available online for most stations, search for the station page on the TfL website, or go via the link below

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/stations-stops-and-piers/

There are some exceptions are not available, typically in areas where staff cannot see accurate progress of trains either, such as the Hammersmith branch and between High St Ken and Edgware Rd.

 

[Dstock7080]

However on the way back I've started heading for Aldgate every time as the departure indicators at Aldgate East are pretty poor and the H&C seems more erratic in that direction. I've waited 20min at Aldgate East before now, never knowing if it's worth cutting my losses and going via Tower Hill, and with the added pressure of having a specific train to catch from St Pancras.

Platform describers at Aldgate East and Plaistow have recently been given new software to show trains up to 15mins away and also now helpfully show either "via Earl's Ct" or 'via King's Cross" to differentiate the routes available.

 

[Ianno87]

If you do go down to the platform at Aldgate East and there is a long wait til the next H&C train, you'd be just as well taking the first District train to Monument, then Northern Line to KXSP from Bank. Or Blackfriars then Thameslink (shortening the walk at St P)

 

[edwin_m]

Platform describers at Aldgate East and Plaistow have recently been given new software to show trains up to 15mins away and also now helpfully show either "via Earl's Ct" or 'via King's Cross" to differentiate the routes available.

Live departures are available online for most stations, search for the station page on the TfL website, or go via the link below

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/stations-stops-and-piers/

There are some exceptions are not available, typically in areas where staff cannot see accurate progress of trains either, such as the Hammersmith branch and between High St Ken and Edgware Rd.

If you do go down to the platform at Aldgate East and there is a long wait til the next H&C train, you'd be just as well taking the first District train to Monument, then Northern Line to KXSP from Bank. Or Blackfriars then Thameslink (shortening the walk at St P)

Thanks for the suggestions which I will consider for my next visit.

 

[rebmcr]

It would be good if there was more information available on the actual departures of the sub-surface lines before you reach the platform and preferably before you get to the station.

Great Portland Street has such a display in the street-level ticket hall.

 

[RJ]

there are very few journies where missing a Circle service means that long a wait. Across the whole of the north you have H&C services and in part Metropolitan services, along the south there are District line trains. The only time you ever need to make plans for a different route is if you need to get a train trough Aldgate.

Anyhow, beyond information available in the station? I don't think so.

St James's Park to Liverpool Street is one that keeps catching me out. Three times I've left work with 45 minutes to get to Liverpool Street (and buy a ticket for onward travel), only to find after waiting for 10 minutes that I'm at the wrong end of a 20 minute gap in the service. There aren't any particularly attractive alternative routes either - there's a choice of taking three trains (via the Vic line at high peak), a delightful trek through the labyrinthine Bank/Monument complex or interchanging at Aldgate East with the H&C, which runs every 10 minutes.

Now I check the live map before leaving work so I can time my arrival at the platform more efficiently.

 

[rebmcr]

St James's Park to Liverpool Street is one that keeps catching me out. Three times I've left work with 45 minutes to get to Liverpool Street (and buy a ticket for onward travel), only to find after waiting for 10 minutes that I'm at the wrong end of a 20 minute gap in the service. There aren't any particularly attractive alternative routes either - there's a choice of taking three trains (via the Vic line at high peak), a delightful trek through the labyrinthine Bank/Monument complex or interchanging at Aldgate East with the H&C, which runs every 10 minutes.

Now I check the live map before leaving work so I can time my arrival at the platform more efficiently.

Double back at Mile End?

 

[Mag_seven]

Live departures are available online for most stations, search for the station page on the TfL website, or go via the link below

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/stations-stops-and-piers/

There are some exceptions are not available, typically in areas where staff cannot see accurate progress of trains either, such as the Hammersmith branch and between High St Ken and Edgware Rd.

It seems to me a bit odd that in 2017 there are still "blackspots" like this. Why is this? Are there no "train describers" on these sections?

 

[RJ]

Double back at Mile End?

The time penalty means it'd probably be better to wait for the next Circle. Just wish it was a more reliable line!

 

[bluegoblin7]

It seems to me a bit odd that in 2017 there are still "blackspots" like this. Why is this? Are there no "train describers" on these sections?

Legacy signalling, ultimately.

To use the Hammersmith branch as an example (purely because it's the one I'm most familiar with), no train descriptions are passed between Hammersmith OZ (opened 1951) and Edgware Road OP (opened 1926) signal cabins, and all signalling outside of the two controlled areas is under automatic signalling, with no intervention possible from the signallers.

When trains depart Edgware Road westbound for the Hammersmith branch they 'lose' their TDs because there is only one place they can go*, Hammersmith. This information is of no use to the Hammersmith signaller, and in days gone by there were, of course, no train describers on any of these platforms.

Similarly, on the eastbound, no TDs are sent from Hammersmith as a hangover from the days when all trains went to Whitechapel/Plaistow/Barking (delete as era-appropriate) and the Circle line trains were just that.

What data is available is very much a bodge and, although most of the time it is useful enough, it becomes completely redundant as soon as any out of course working is in place.

Essentially, the timetable is fused with the limited Trackernet data available and this is what powers the new platform DMIs and other 'real time' info. As trains progress along the branch they pass through different radio cells which can determine the approximate location, and it is this data that forms the basis of the departures. The 'next train' boards at Hammersmith are manually operated by the signaller at OZ cabin.

*It is possible for trains to be terminated at Goldhawk Road and run directly into the siding at Hammersmith. However, this is not a timetabled move and is often only decided at the last minute for service trains, or offered as an option for additional trains, if platform working at Hammersmith cannot cope with the additional train, or if it was running straight into the depot and such a move would ease congestion.

 

[LU_timetabler]

St James's Park to Liverpool Street is one that keeps catching me out. Three times I've left work with 45 minutes to get to Liverpool Street (and buy a ticket for onward travel), only to find after waiting for 10 minutes that I'm at the wrong end of a 20 minute gap in the service. There aren't any particularly attractive alternative routes either - there's a choice of taking three trains (via the Vic line at high peak), a delightful trek through the labyrinthine Bank/Monument complex or interchanging at Aldgate East with the H&C, which runs every 10 minutes.

Now I check the live map before leaving work so I can time my arrival at the platform more efficiently.

Vic in the peak is really not too bad since the service is every 100 seconds. I am doing SJP to Euston via Vic in the peak and frequently manage a seat. Other option would be change at Embankment for Northern. You can then choose between Central to get to Liverpool Street or using the Met part of the circle.

 

[LU_timetabler]

Never wait for a Circle unless it is on the board! If not on the board reverse at Earls Court or Aldgate East. The District up to Edgware Road runs exactly in the middle of the Circles.

 

[edwin_m]

Never wait for a Circle unless it is on the board! If not on the board reverse at Earls Court or Aldgate East. The District up to Edgware Road runs exactly in the middle of the Circles.

My experience suggests that doing so anticlockwise at Aldgate East isn't a good idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My experience suggests that doing so anticlockwise at Aldgate East isn't a good idea.

True, anticlockwise connections never work at Aldgate East. But leaving Aldgate East and walking to Aldgate can often be quicker than waiting for a Circle if one isn't on the board.

 

[edwin_m]

True, anticlockwise connections never work at Aldgate East. But leaving Aldgate East and walking to Aldgate can often be quicker than waiting for a Circle if one isn't on the board.

However Aldgate East to Aldgate doesn't appear to be an Out of Station Interchange, so a those not on Travelcard would be charged extra.

 

[rebmcr]

However Aldgate East to Aldgate doesn't appear to be an Out of Station Interchange, so a those not on Travelcard would be charged extra.

It is an OSI.

 

[Mag_seven]

Legacy signalling, ultimately.

To use the Hammersmith branch as an example (purely because it's the one I'm most familiar with), no train descriptions are passed between Hammersmith OZ (opened 1951) and Edgware Road OP (opened 1926) signal cabins, and all signalling outside of the two controlled areas is under automatic signalling, with no intervention possible from the signallers.

When trains depart Edgware Road westbound for the Hammersmith branch they 'lose' their TDs because there is only one place they can go*, Hammersmith. This information is of no use to the Hammersmith signaller, and in days gone by there were, of course, no train describers on any of these platforms.

Similarly, on the eastbound, no TDs are sent from Hammersmith as a hangover from the days when all trains went to Whitechapel/Plaistow/Barking (delete as era-appropriate) and the Circle line trains were just that.

What data is available is very much a bodge and, although most of the time it is useful enough, it becomes completely redundant as soon as any out of course working is in place.

Essentially, the timetable is fused with the limited Trackernet data available and this is what powers the new platform DMIs and other 'real time' info. As trains progress along the branch they pass through different radio cells which can determine the approximate location, and it is this data that forms the basis of the departures. The 'next train' boards at Hammersmith are manually operated by the signaller at OZ cabin.

*It is possible for trains to be terminated at Goldhawk Road and run directly into the siding at Hammersmith. However, this is not a timetabled move and is often only decided at the last minute for service trains, or offered as an option for additional trains, if platform working at Hammersmith cannot cope with the additional train, or if it was running straight into the depot and such a move would ease congestion.

Thanks for the detailed explanation - its always frustrating waiting at Padd H&C wondering when a westbound will turn up!

 

[MikeWh]

However Aldgate East to Aldgate doesn't appear to be an Out of Station Interchange, so a those not on Travelcard would be charged extra.

It is an OSI.

It is NOT an OSI.

OSIs do not exist where any journey opportunities are covered by direct trains.

 

[rebmcr]

It is NOT an OSI.

OSIs do not exist where any journey opportunities are covered by direct trains.

There are no direct trains Aldgate — Aldgate East though?

There are also no direct trains (for example) Finchley Road — Whitechapel. Does it force the use of a same-platform connection on the Great Portland Street — Liverpool Street section? That's actively bad if one compares the frequency of District and H&C line services.

 

[MikeWh]

There are no direct trains Aldgate — Aldgate East though?

Agreed, but those two stations are sufficiently close that they believe no-one would want to make a tube journey just between them. And if you really did then you can always go via Tower Hill or Liverpool Street.

There are also no direct trains (for example) Finchley Road — Whitechapel. Does it force the use of a same-platform connection on the Great Portland Street — Liverpool Street section? That's actively bad if one compares the frequency of District and H&C line services.

Yes, it does 'force' use of a same-platform connection. 99% of people will be happy with that 99% of the time. If there is disruption, most would be happy to change at Tower Hill if that was an appropriate solution.

If you feel passionate about providing a walking link between the Aldgates then you can always lobby TfL.

 

[edwin_m]

I checked with the list of OSIs before posting that Aldgate to Aldgate East isn't one.

 

[rebmcr]

I checked with the list of OSIs before posting that Aldgate to Aldgate East isn't one.

My apologies everyone, I did read it on a list at some point but I haven't been able to find it since, and it seems they probably pulled it out of the air!

If you feel passionate about providing a walking link between the Aldgates then you can always lobby TfL.

The bit I don't understand from them, is that it's already a signposted walking route from within each station's ticket hall. :/

 

[edwin_m]

The bit I don't understand from them, is that it's already a signposted walking route from within each station's ticket hall. :/

There's even a small laminated sign next to the west exit of the eastbound platform at Aldgate East indicating this exit for destinations including Aldgate station.

 

[MikeWh]

My apologies everyone, I did read it on a list at some point but I haven't been able to find it since, and it seems they probably pulled it out of the air!

My memory is failing me, but it's possible that it was one of a few temporary OSIs set up during the 2012 Olympics. That's the only thing I can think of.

The bit I don't understand from them, is that it's already a signposted walking route from within each station's ticket hall. :/

Possibly so that if you turn up at the wrong one you can correct it on foot if desired.

 

[greatkingrat]

For comparison, Dalston Kingsland to Dalston Junction is set up as an OSI even though you can travel via Canonbury instead.

 

[Deerfold]

My memory is failing me, but it's possible that it was one of a few temporary OSIs set up during the 2012 Olympics. That's the only thing I can think of.

It seems it was according to this useful site

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2012/07/temporary-osis-for-the-olympics/

I have heard via a site visitor that there are two new OSIs in place for the period of the Olympics and Paralympics. The first one is between Aldgate and Aldgate East and works as long as you touch back in within 20 minutes, either way round.