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Missed Connection. Next Train in Two Hours.

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azOOOOOma

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Just a quick question. Scenario last week was a customer on an XC train with a connection at York missed their Grand Central service to London due to the XC being delayed. The next GC service was in two hours time.

I understand under PRO the customer would have been entitled to a rerouting by their ticketed train but that it is down to their ticketed operator to organise this but XC weren’t able to offer any advice and the customer was not able to contact GC.

So my questions:

-Would it be XC or GC they’d need to get to arrange this?
-If nothing is forthcoming from either operator, what happens then and what costs (if any) will be covered for the purchase of a new ticket on another operator?

I just let him pass as it was a one off but going forward I appreciate that probably wouldn’t be acceptable.

I hope this makes sense my lovelies,

Laura x
 
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Haywain

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Would it be XC or GC they’d need to get to arrange this?
CrossCountry.
If nothing is forthcoming from either operator, what happens then and what costs (if any) will be covered for the purchase of a new ticket on another operator?
Customer either waits for next GC train or buys a ticket for an LNER train. If the latter they can attempt to recover the cost from CrossCountry.
 
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azOOOOOma

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I thought that was the case. There was a lot going on that night so it was easier to just let him pass!

Would it be same if, for example, the Underground was delayed? As long as they’ve left enough time between connections?

Laura x
 

Belperpete

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CrossCountry.

Customer either waits for next GC train or buys a ticket for an LNER train. If the latter they can attempt to recover the cost from CrossCountry.
I suppose the question is: if they book their own alternative transport, are they entitled to a refund? Or is it purely goodwill?

I regularly make journeys where, if the connection is missed, it is two or even three hours until the next train. There is no alternative, other than getting a taxi (which would be hideously expensive). Back in the mists of time, I have had taxis provided for me, but now I am told that I just have to wait and claim delay repay. How is this situation any different?
 

styles

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I suppose the question is: if they book their own alternative transport, are they entitled to a refund? Or is it purely goodwill?

I regularly make journeys where, if the connection is missed, it is two or even three hours until the next train. There is no alternative, other than getting a taxi (which would be hideously expensive). Back in the mists of time, I have had taxis provided for me, but now I am told that I just have to wait and claim delay repay. How is this situation any different?
You really ought to get prior approval from the train operator, as they are fundamentally responsible for getting you to your destination. They may decide it's better business to just pay you 100% of your fare back when you get the train 2-3 hours later. They may decide to put you into a pre-booked taxi, or onto a rail replacement coach, or they may decide the problem is so widespread that they say book a hotel and travel first thing in the morning and we'll refund the hotel for you.

If you make your own arrangements without asking, or without some message publicised by the operator saying what passengers should do, you run the risk of the claim being rejected.

That said, if you can't get hold of a member of staff, you obviously need to do something. As long as what you arrange is reasonable, it should be paid out. Don't book a 5* hotel in Mayfair if the last train from Euston to Edinburgh is cancelled. But if you booked a flight for £80 or you booked into the Premier Inn on Euston Road and travelled on the first train the next morning, you'd expect that to be covered.
 

azOOOOOma

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I think for me the issue is someone buying a ticket for a competitor, expecting another company to act as a rescue service, in essence for free, when things go wrong.

Granted that in this case it was because I passed a passenger but the concept of paying anything was met with anger and agression.

Laura x
 

crablab

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expecting another company to act as a rescue service, in essence for free, when things go wrong.
It's not a "rescue service" - it's a key part of the NRCoT.

To quote 28.2:
Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

Whether it's a "competitor" or not, and internal mechanisms for who gets paid for what is something the industry should be resolving internally.

Passengers are entitled to rely on the contract they form at ticket purchase.

Whether 28.2 is applicable to this scenario is somewhat open to debate depending on whether you consider the passenger was prevented from completing their journey by the disruption; I don't dispute the PRO is clear that XC should have arranged rerouting in this instance. However, my view is 28.2 does envision other TOCs rendering assistance in similar scenarios.
 

Belperpete

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I agree with the previous poster that this wasn't a rescue service, but because you weren't rescuing the passenger - he was able to complete his journey using his booked operator, on a later service. All you were doing was mitigating his delay.

Just because alternative transport (be that another train operator or a taxi) could get you to your destination faster, does that mean you are entitled to alternative transport? And at what length delay would that entitlement kick in: 2 hours, 1 hour, 15 minutes?

I wish you were entitled to alternative transport if it got you there faster. For many of my journeys, a taxi would always be faster than train,
 

Haywain

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Would it be same if, for example, the Underground was delayed? As long as they’ve left enough time between connections?
If the ticket was for GC, then yes, they should wait for the next GC service (they can try and get London Underground to re-route them, but in the real world...). If the last GC train has gone, then LNER has to be the rescue service.
 

Hadders

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I think for me the issue is someone buying a ticket for a competitor, expecting another company to act as a rescue service, in essence for free, when things go wrong.

Granted that in this case it was because I passed a passenger but the concept of paying anything was met with anger and agression.

Laura x
Sometimes you should do the right thing for the customer, especially when there is significant disruption.

While train companies compete the concept of a ‘National Rail’ network still exists and there are times when train companies should work together.
 

MarlowDonkey

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If the ticket was for GC, then yes, they should wait for the next GC service (they can try and get London Underground to re-route them, but in the real world...).
The single operator ticket has a lower price, but that comes at a loss of flexibility.
 

redreni

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I agree with the previous poster that this wasn't a rescue service, but because you weren't rescuing the passenger - he was able to complete his journey using his booked operator, on a later service. All you were doing was mitigating his delay.

Just because alternative transport (be that another train operator or a taxi) could get you to your destination faster, does that mean you are entitled to alternative transport?
Yes, if the delay in your arrival time at your final destination is expected to be over 60 minutes.
And at what length delay would that entitlement kick in: 2 hours, 1 hour, 15 minutes?
As above, 60 minutes. It's retained EU law - it's not optional.
I wish you were entitled to alternative transport if it got you there faster. For many of my journeys, a taxi would always be faster than train.
I don't think it's necessary for transport operators to organise taxis in order to comply with PRO, if trains are still running and the expected delay is within the bounds of what is reasonable. I don't think the concept of "rerouting at the earliest opportunity" is as mysterious as some like to make out, and if you're trying to argue that a transport operator has not re-routed you at the earliest opportunity, plainly you have a stronger case if a scheduled train ran and could have got you to your destination quicker, than if no scheduled train ran but you contend that the TOC could and should have sorted out a taxi. Which is not to say you have no case in the latter scenario, merely that it's a more difficult case to make.

As for why people expect to be carried on another train, I should have thought this would be obvious but it obviously isn't, so here's the reason as I see it. People typically understand that if they buy a ticket for a specific train and it says "Booked Train Only" on it, then that is the train they have to use in normal circumstances. It is also pretty obvious to all concerned that if it turns out to be impossible to use the booked train due to a failing on the railway's side, the passenger is still entitled to get to their destination, which inevitably means using another train if one is available.

What people don't necessarily understand - and there's no reason to expect that they should or will - is that, layered on top of the "Booked Train Only" restriction, is a TOC restriction, and the TOC restriction may still be enforced even where the Booked Train Only restriction cannot be. That rule is not obvious to non-railway people. It exists only due to the vagaries of revenue apportionment within the industry. People don't get that. They shouldn't have to worry about that. The industry should sort that out itself without troubling the passenger.

It's heartening to learn that descretion was exercised sensibly in this case, but I don't think passengers should be reliant on descretion in such cases.

It's an interesting thought experiment, actually, to consider if the passenger's position will be any better once GBR has taken over all the passenger operations except open access? The current scenario is a person booked to travel with Grand Central, with XC as the connecting leg, ending up on an LNER train and dealing with an LNER train manager who doesn't work for the company that caused the delay. Presumably in an exactly comparable situation once GBR has taken over both XC's and LNER's operations, the train manager would not for one moment suggest that the passenger should wait for the next Grand Central service to London, as they would recognise that GBR had caused the missed connection and should mitigate the delay by conveying the passenger to London as quickly as possible? Or is that too optimistic?
 

MarlowDonkey

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The current scenario is a person booked to travel with Grand Central, with XC as the connecting leg, ending up on an LNER train and dealing with an LNER train manager who doesn't work for the company that caused the delay. Presumably in an exactly comparable situation once GBR has taken over both XC's and LNER's operations, the train manager would not for one moment suggest that the passenger should wait for the next Grand Central service to London, as they would recognise that GBR had caused the missed connection and should mitigate the delay by conveying the passenger to London as quickly as possible? Or is that too optimistic?
If Grand Central are still undercutting fares on GBR, wouldn't there still be some restrictions on the use of Grand Central tickets?
 

crablab

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Yes, if the delay in your arrival time at your final destination is expected to be over 60 minutes.
Whilst I agree with your interpretation of the PRO, it's binding on the operator at fault. They should be the one arranging rerouting or making the alternative arrangements.

In this case, the question was whether another operator should be proactively helping, and that is something I assert is required by the NRCoT.

What's not clear is how the rerouting rewuire of the PRO interacts with the contractual NRCoT 28.2, and whether a failure to discharge the duty to reroute under the PRO requires other TOCs to render assistance under the contract the passenger has formed. I think that's actually quite complex and I certainly don't know how these two things interact.

The argument one might be tempted to advance is that the passenger expected (as per the PRO) to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity when a delay arose - 60 minutes delay (at 2 hours, the operator has to make alternative arrangements etc.).
When the operator failed to arrange rerouting, as required by the PRO, they had been prevented from completing their journey (as opposed to simply delayed) and under the NRCoT, should expect the assistance of other TOCs in a position to help.
But that might be rather a novel interpretation.

It's heartening to learn that descretion was exercised sensibly in this case, but I don't think passengers should be reliant on descretion in such cases.
I entirely agree. I was disappointed to see the onward transport of a disrupted passenger conflated with internal settlement & revenue issues.
 

Haywain

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When the operator failed to arrange rerouting, as required by the PRO,
Did the operator fail? If it wasn't brought to their attention a passenger was going to be delayed howcould they make arrangements appropriate for that passenger?
 

azOOOOOma

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Thank you my lovelies. It’s great to see so many different ways of thinking when I ask questions on here!

I think going forward I’ll just pass anyone. I just worry about getting into trouble if I don’t sell enough tickets or accept tickets from other TOCs. I guess if I ever get asked, then I have a good reason for helping other people.

Laura x
 

Haywain

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I think going forward I’ll just pass anyone.
My view is likely to be unpopular here, but I think you should be a little wary. Plenty of people try it on when they know full well that they are not travelling in accordance with their ticket restrictions. if people hve been delayed and missed a connection then that is a different case but I'd be checking that they have actually been delayed and not had other options.
 

crablab

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My view is likely to be unpopular here, but I think you should be a little wary. Plenty of people try it on when they know full well that they are not travelling in accordance with their ticket restrictions. if people hve been delayed and missed a connection then that is a different case but I'd be checking that they have actually been delayed and not had other options.
Personally, I don't think that's an unreasonable position and far be it for me to tell someone how to do their job :)

The discussion above is predicated on the passenger encountering delay, and I don't think confirming that a passenger had been faulted by the railway (as opposed to missing their train and chancing their arm on the next one) is contentious. I'm sure there's internal sources, but RTT or OTT would be able to confirm whether a service ran or not, or indeed was late.
 

redreni

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My view is likely to be unpopular here, but I think you should be a little wary. Plenty of people try it on when they know full well that they are not travelling in accordance with their ticket restrictions. if people hve been delayed and missed a connection then that is a different case but I'd be checking that they have actually been delayed and not had other options.
I've no idea what train managers can and can't get in trouble for, so wouldn't suggest anybody takes anything I might say as advice on what to do!

It's not intended that way - it's just my view on what TOCs should be doing. If I were paid by a TOC to do a job, I would of course have to work within the constraints the company's management placed on me.

I agree completely that if a passenger is on a later train than booked, it is reasonable to check to see why. All I'm saying is that if a passenger has been delayed by the railway and is therefore entitled to travel on a later train, but they have fallen foul of a TOC restriction, nobody ought to be surprised if they take it badly if you tell them they have to pay again. If discretion can be shown, great! If the company requires a strict line to be taken, then my problem is with the higher-ups in the industry rather than with front line staff.
 

185143

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My view is likely to be unpopular here, but I think you should be a little wary. Plenty of people try it on when they know full well that they are not travelling in accordance with their ticket restrictions. if people hve been delayed and missed a connection then that is a different case but I'd be checking that they have actually been delayed and not had other options.
I've had an LNER Train Manager dig in a bit and want details of the connecting service I'd claimed to be delayed on and subsequently missed my connection, and checked it out for herself before correctly accepting my ticket.

The only time I've had that happen and it seemed a bit OTT, but ultimately people will take the mick.
 

redreni

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If Grand Central are still undercutting fares on GBR, wouldn't there still be some restrictions on the use of Grand Central tickets?
Yes, I would think so. I'm not saying, for instance, that if Grand Central cancelled a train, GBR would automatically accept Grand Central tickets, without Grand Central paying them to do so.

All I'm wondering is whether, if GBR caused a passenger to miss their connection onto a Grand Central train and the next alternative to the Grand Central train was operated by GBR, GBR would recongnise that it should accept the person's ticket? If they don't accept the person's ticket, one of two things will happen:

1. The passenger will pay again, which is additional revenue for GBR (but they may claim the money back from GBR as the operator that caused the delay and so ought to have re-routed the passenger, and if the passenger doesn't realise they're entitled to do this or lacks the necessary persistence or just doesn't want the hassle, they will be much less inclined to travel by train in future); or
2. The passenger will wait for the next Grand Central train, arriving several hours late, and will claim 100% Delay Repay from GBR.

I'm not saying GBR would definitely do the right thing in a case like this, but the incentives would appear to be slightly different if there's only two operators in play rather than three.
 

xotGD

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If LNER take a passenger so that they avoid an extended fester for the next Grand Central, the passenger is more likely to book with LNER next time in response to the good customer service.

They might tell their friends too.

Free marketing for LNER.
 

Wallsendmag

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If LNER take a passenger so that they avoid an extended fester for the next Grand Central, the passenger is more likely to book with LNER next time in response to the good customer service.

They might tell their friends too.

Free marketing for LNER.
Or the passenger thinks I'll still buy that cheap GC ticket as I can always get on the LNER train if anything goes wrong.
 

Coolzac

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Or the passenger thinks I'll still buy that cheap GC ticket as I can always get on the LNER train if anything goes wrong.
This is why we really need a unified railway. At the moment the passenger gets double punished during disruption - they get delayed, but then have to pay extra to make sure they don't get extra delayed.

Whilst I think the passenger should be let on the LNER service, I do have sympathy for LNER if they are constantly used as a back up for Grand Central's awful reliability.
 

redreni

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This is why we really need a unified railway. At the moment the passenger gets double punished during disruption - they get delayed, but then have to pay extra to make sure they don't get extra delayed.

Whilst I think the passenger should be let on the LNER service, I do have sympathy for LNER if they are constantly used as a back up for Grand Central's awful reliability.
So do I. I wouldn't have open access at all, and I definitely think any policy of nationalising passenger rail operations is undermined if you continue to have open access operators. Open access might be a small slice of the market, but giving them a contract allowing them to use paths on some of the most strategically important parts of the network obviously hampers GBR's ability to take strategic decisions.

And as you say, it is difficult for the state-run operator not to have anti-passenger policies in the event of disruption if the open access operators undercut them and then don't pay their way when they should be negotiating ticket acceptance for their passengers.
 

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Or the passenger thinks I'll still buy that cheap GC ticket as I can always get on the LNER train if anything goes wrong.
Why should the price of the ticket have anything to do with your rights in the event of disruption?

Should Ryanair flights be exempt from EU261 because they're cheap? How far down that road do you go?

At the end of the day the rail industry only harms its own reputation if it tries to go down the strict legalistic route of "you have to pursue another TOC [which just so happens not to have any staff here] for assistance".
 

Coolzac

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Why should the price of the ticket have anything to do with your rights in the event of disruption?

Should Ryanair flights be exempt from EU261 because they're cheap? How far down that road do you go?

At the end of the day the rail industry only harms its own reputation if it tries to go down the strict legalistic route of "you have to pursue another TOC [which just so happens not to have any staff here] for assistance".
I would say the issue could be something like this:

Grand Central spends a lot less money on maintenance on trains, and also less money on contingency planning if things go wrong, and then uses this money to cut fares. It takes passengers away from LNER using this method. Then, predictably, the reliability of their service is poor, and then their passengers end using LNER services as a result. So LNER suffers having to act as Grand Central's backup, whilst they get to keep to keep offering low fares.

Now, I'm not saying this is the case, it's just a hypothetical.
 

Watershed

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I would say the issue could be something like this:

Grand Central spends a lot less money on maintenance on trains, and also less money on contingency planning if things go wrong, and then uses this money to cut fares. It takes passengers away from LNER using this method. Then, predictably, the reliability of their service is poor, and then their passengers end using LNER services as a result. So LNER suffers having to act as Grand Central's backup, whilst they get to keep to keep offering low fares.

Now, I'm not saying this is the case, it's just a hypothetical.
Nobody is saying LNER/GBR shouldn't be reimbursed by GC for carrying affected passengers. Just that passengers shouldn't be inconvenienced through petty arguments about who to contact to vindicate their legal rights.
 
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