Missed connection, missed last train

[shinkansen1966]

One Saturday this Summer, going to be travelling from Aberystwyth to London Euston. Will travel on the 17:30 ex Aberystwyth, arriving London Euston 22:45. Change twice en route: at Shrewbury arr 19:25, dep 19:54 and again at arr Crewe 20:32, dep 22:47.

The Shrewbury to Crewe train originates in Milford Haven. It only has to be 15 mins late arriving into Crewe, and I've missed the last train of the day from Crewe to London Euston.

I'll be buying an advanced purchase ticket. What happens if I miss the last Crewe to Euston train. Does responsible TOC:
1. put me up in a hotel for night in Crewe, first train to London on Sunday morning
2. tell me to get next available train, which requires change at Birmingham and a 9 hour overnight wait there.
2. put me in a cab to London

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully option 1. That's the cheapest for the railway and probably most comfortable for you too. Taxis are ridiculously expensive for a journey of that distance and, I think, should not be used if an overnight stay can be done.

 

[clagmonster]

The relevent part of the conditions of carriage is:
"43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

All TOCs are legally obliged to comply with the conditions of carriage, so it would either be option 1 or 3. My advice would be to first speak with the guard of the delayed train, or the station staff at either Shrewsbury or Aberwystwyth if the train is advertised as sufficiently delayed.

 

[philjo]

According to the national rail timetable (table 131), that service is due to arrive at Crewe at 20:26 on saturdays (unless there is any alteration on that specific date due to engineering works etc), so you should have an extra 5 minutes grace.
One option - when you arrive at Shrewsbury if the onward service is shown on the screens as running late enough to make your connection at Crewe dodgy, find the customer services people ask the staff if they will endorse your ticket so you can catch the 19:47 LM service & get a VT to Euston from wolverhampton or Birmingham.
There are usually customer service staff on the platform at Shrewsbury.
There are probably others on that train from Milford Haven wanting the connection at Crewe for Euston.

 

[fairlie]

Why not continue on the 1730 from Aberystwyth to New Street and change there for the 2110 VT to Euston? It arrives at into Euston at 2255 so that's only 10 minutes after the Crewe arrival and you've got 43 minutes to make the connection in New St so it's maybe a bit more secure. Even for this coming Saturday there's an AP fare available for that at £19.50.

[Alternatively, change at Wolverhampton: London train is 2045 and you have 35 minutes to make the connection.]

 

[rail-britain]

If it is ONE ticket, then the outgoing TOC has to decide what action to take
If your journey is not urgent they may put you up in a hotel
If your journey is urgent then they will put you in a taxi

However if you have separate Advance Tickets then the outgoing TOC has met their requirement

 

[Lampshade]

However if you have separate Advance Tickets then the outgoing TOC has met their requirement

That is a huge grey area, a journey can be made up of a combination of tickets, the journey in this case is to London, not Crewe.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Thanks for your suggestions and help. Soon as I posted the message, I then went on to read the Natonal Rail conditions of carriage, which confirms overnight accommodation as an option for passenger/TOCs.

Opting for the 15 min connection at Crewe. But if delays looks possible, get Shrewbury staff to endorse a re-route via Wolves/Birmingham.

This is actually part of a bigger scenic day out. Morning train from London Padd to Carmarthen, then bus onto Aberystwyth. Chance to explorer some new lines for me and get some much needed summertime rail mileage under my belt.

 

[Greenback]

If it is ONE ticket, then the outgoing TOC has to decide what action to take
If your journey is not urgent they may put you up in a hotel
If your journey is urgent then they will put you in a taxi

However if you have separate Advance Tickets then the outgoing TOC has met their requirement

Is that the sound of another tin of worms being opened?

 

[shinkansen1966]

Is that the sound of another tin of worms being opened?

Oh the joys of a fragmented railway. :roll:

 

[yorkie]

However if you have separate Advance Tickets then the outgoing TOC has met their requirement

Do you have a source for this statement?

Do you acknowledge that you can combine tickets for one journey?

 

[Geezertronic]

I was on a VT service that was severely delayed last week (by 45 minutes) which meant a family missed their ATW connection at Birmingham International. The VT guard arranged for them to stay on until Wolves, catch a train to Shrewsbury, where they would be met by a minibus which would take them to their destination station in Wales.

I believe they had a through ticket to their destination rather than combinations/split tickets

 

[ashworth]

I'm doing a similar long distance day out with through AP tickets on a Saturday at the beginning of August. I'm doing a return trip from Blackpool to Aberdeen for £15 each way - out via Glasgow and back via Edinburgh.
On the return trip my train from Aberdeen arrives in Edinburgh at 1832 and the train for Preston departs at 1852 (last train on Saturdays). I do however also have the option of changing at Haymarket to make up a few minutes in case of late running from Aberdeen.

If the train from Aberdeen is much more than 25 minutes late I suppose the only option for me will be overnight accomodation in Edinburgh as a taxi to Preston or Blackpool will be a rather long journey.

I'm planning on no problems but one thought that did come to me is that if I did have to stay the night in a hotel in Edinburgh, as I am doing a day trip with no luggage, I certainly won't have an overnight bag with a change of clothes, toothbrush, shaver etc. Well it is a thought isn't it!
Also even on a Sunday the first departure from Edinburgh is as early as 8am and so I hope that i will be able to get a breakfast!

Seriously, I am hoping that it doesn't happen as I already have a hotel room booked for a week with friends in Blackpool!

 

[transportphoto]

I wouldn't attempt getting a train due in at XXXX and also try to get a train out in the same minute!

 

[ashworth]

Sorry my mistake. Typed in the wrong time!
I've edited it and corrected it now.

 

[455driver]

If you are this concerned about missing your last connection then catch an earlier train, honestly you are putting up so many issues that may never happen!
Why dont you wait and see what happens (if anything) and take it from there.

 

[ashworth]

Well, I was just joining in the general theme of the thread.....!

I'm not expecting any problems. The majority of journeys that I make by rail are usually problem free. I wouldn't have booked this journey if I didn't have almost 99% confidence that I will be able to complete the journey in one day without problems.
As it is all in one day, I don't actually arrive in Aberdeen until approx 2pm, and so my departure at approx 4pm, may be the last train, but also the only possible train.
I have every confidence that there will be no significant delays but it's also nice to know, at the back of your mind, that suitable provison will be made if there was a problem.

 

[Scotty]

If you are this concerned about missing your last connection then catch an earlier train, honestly you are putting up so many issues that may never happen!
Why dont you wait and see what happens (if anything) and take it from there.

Sometimes, the last train of the day is the only option.

Planning in the event of things going wrong, is never a bad thing.

 

[455driver]

Oh I agree with that, but surely if you are on a delayed train the guard can look up alternatives on their avantix for you?

 

[TDK]

One Saturday this Summer, going to be travelling from Aberystwyth to London Euston. Will travel on the 17:30 ex Aberystwyth, arriving London Euston 22:45. Change twice en route: at Shrewbury arr 19:25, dep 19:54 and again at arr Crewe 20:32, dep 22:47.

The Shrewbury to Crewe train originates in Milford Haven. It only has to be 15 mins late arriving into Crewe, and I've missed the last train of the day from Crewe to London Euston.

I'll be buying an advanced purchase ticket. What happens if I miss the last Crewe to Euston train. Does responsible TOC:
1. put me up in a hotel for night in Crewe, first train to London on Sunday morning
2. tell me to get next available train, which requires change at Birmingham and a 9 hour overnight wait there.
2. put me in a cab to London

You can only claim for accomodation or a taxi if it is an advertised connection, if it is not you will be in a cardboard box at Crewe

 

[yorkie]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/cre/details.html

Connection time: 10 minutes (minimum)

So 15 mins is more than enough for it to be a valid connection.

 

[Ferret]

Do you have a source for this statement?

Do you acknowledge that you can combine tickets for one journey?

Hmmm, this is quite an interesting scenario. Say the OP bought an ATW advance to Crewe, and a VT Advance to London but the ATW train into Crewe was late and he missed his connection. VT point out that their train left on time, not our problem. ATW point out that the OP entered into a contract to get him to Crewe, which they have done. The OP is left without a leg to stand on, other than to claim compensation against the cost of the ATW advance....

 

[yorkie]

Hmmm, this is quite an interesting scenario. Say the OP bought an ATW advance to Crewe, and a VT Advance to London but the ATW train into Crewe was late and he missed his connection. VT point out that their train left on time, not our problem. ATW point out that the OP entered into a contract to get him to Crewe, which they have done. The OP is left without a leg to stand on, other than to claim compensation against the cost of the ATW advance....

VT would have to let them travel, as they are allowed to take the following train to complete their journey (their journey is covered by both tickets).

b) If delays occur while
travelling, they will be
allowed to take the next
available train(s) to complete
their journey.

19. Using a combination of tickets​

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport​

executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded​

If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.​

Destination = end of journey.

Two or more tickets can be combined for one journey.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Since I first looked at this, they've added another Sautrday night option for the Aberystwyth to Euston trip.

Instead of changing at Shrewsbury and Crewe, you can change at Birmingham New Street, arrive at New St at 20:27, dep 21:10. Arrive Euston 22:55. You can buy an AP ticket for this combination.

But if you look on the National Rail web site, they don't show this New Street option. They only show the route via Shrewbury and Crewe.

 

[yorkie]

And just to pre-empt anyone saying Advance tickets can't be combined to form one journey, anything you quote on the restrictions of such tickets is over-ruled by the conditions posted above that states that you can complete your journey if delays occur.

However if anyone is still any doubt then consumer law steps in...

Written contracts
7. - (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

 

[Ferret]

Yorkie, I suspect that we'd never get to the bottom of this one unless it was actually tested in a Court of Law. However, to get that far, you'd have to figure out who to sue. ATW could argue they got the OP to Crewe as they were contracted to do. VT could argue that they were contracted to get the OP to EUS on that last train but the OP was not there. Not looking good for a successful case and we're only at the first hurdle.

 

[Greenback]

Bearing in mind the OP;s journey is Aberystwyth to london via Crewe and Shrewsbury, as shown in NRE, would this clause cover it? If not, why not?

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[Ferret]

Depends what caused the delay I guess! What if it was a delay outside the railway's control - a fatality, a factory fire adjacent to the line.

Yorkie, you still haven't answered my theoretical question about who you would sue should you wish to take a case to Court. When you answer, please consider the relevant case law on third parties and formation of contracts....

 

[shinkansen1966]

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

"Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use"
I was entitled to use VT from Crewe back to London, but couldn't. Incoming ATW train late.

"any Train Company which is in a position to help will"
Supposing neither Arriva Trains Wales nor VT are in a position to help ?

"if it reasonably can"
oh, that hideous reasonable test !

If there was nobody at Crewe either willing, capable or even trained to help a stranded passenger, said passenger could find accommodation locally, then claim it back. If VT or ATW decline to repay, take 'em to court and see what the judge has to say.

Sadly, a combination of fragmented railways and increasingly litigious culture, means that railways become adverse to risk or assistance. It's easier to cancel a train altogether in bad weather, rather than attempting to run a service, fearing a customer backlash when they find they can't all their passengers home.

You can almost here it: "Due to moderately breezey weather, East Midlands Trains are cancelling all services today. There is no alternative road replacement service. Passengers are recommended not travel." Cheaper, less risky and easier for EMT to do that, than attempt some kind of service. Their only liability is refunding only those passengers who could only travel on the day of the breezes. All the other passengers just switch to the next day. It's lazy and cowardly rail provision.

Back in 2001, we got stranded at Cologne station. We'd deposited our bags in the station auto-luggage racks, so we could visit the city. When we got back, despite the best efforts of station staff, the machine was unable to retreive our baggage. When the luggage machine finally returned our bags, we'd missed the train back to Brussels and onward Eurostar connection to London. Without any dithering or hesitation, station staff immediately booked us rooms for the night in the DB station hotel and re-booked our rail tickets back to London. So we had a bonus night out in Cologne. The next morning, we were on our way home.

Now can you imagine, two poor German travellers at Birmingham New St whose luggage went a stray and they missed their train VT back to Euston and onward Eurostar.

 

[455driver]

Hmmm, this is quite an interesting scenario. Say the OP bought an ATW advance to Crewe, and a VT Advance to London but the ATW train into Crewe was late and he missed his connection. VT point out that their train left on time, not our problem. ATW point out that the OP entered into a contract to get him to Crewe, which they have done. The OP is left without a leg to stand on, other than to claim compensation against the cost of the ATW advance....

VT would have to let them travel, as they are allowed to take the following train to complete their journey (their journey is covered by both tickets).


Destination = end of journey.
Two or more tickets can be combined for one journey.

Ground hog day!

And no I am NOT joining in because it all depends on how you read the conditions of carriage which can be interpreted either way which really should NOT be the case.