Misleading TfL poster about touching at Farringdon

[Sm5]

Ive been caught by this very machine, northbound TL, by the exit to the EL stairs, not knowing the above until tonight…




My profile invited me to challenge it, and it did adjust the fare, but I still don't know if its correct.

This is the adjustment..



my journey was London Bridge to Royal Victoria, there was no break at Farringdon, just touching this reader as instructed, and heading straight down to EL from TL.

I hate using payg in London for exactly this reason, every day is a drama.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

My concern is if I hear about someone not being charged correctly having touched the yellow reader between EL and TL. That would suggest that continuation exit is not set correctly. I've no reason to suspect that at the moment, but it is a worry.

Yes that would be me by the looks of it.

How do you protect yourself from this rubbish in future. I always use paper tickets, such as a travelcard, when doing a return journey to avoid these issues, but on this date I was only going one way and thought i’d give payg a chance… and yes robbed by it again, and looks like I could have jeopardized the rest of my life and career too through no fault of my own had this been challenged.

 

[Alex365Dash]

my journey was London Bridge to Royal Victoria, there was no break at Farringdon, just touching this reader as instructed, and heading straight down to EL from TL.

I hate using payg in London for exactly this reason, every day is a drama.

I’d suggest calling up the TfL PAYG helpline to get the journey corrected to London Bridge NR to Royal Victoria. You can call them on 0343 222 1234. They’re open 08:00 - 20:00, 7 days a week.

 

[Sm5]

I’d suggest calling up the TfL PAYG helpline to get the journey corrected to London Bridge NR to Royal Victoria. You can call them on 0343 222 1234. They’re open 08:00 - 20:00, 7 days a week.

ive emailed them, and having now seen this thread i’ll send them a copy of it.

However it would seem theres a bigger issue here, in that innocent people could be caught out on a more legal aspect, where would they stand on this ?

Really tfl should be proactively resolving this. Its clearly wrong, I only went looking for this as I checked tonight as it felt weird at the time, and i dont use payg very often at all (I simply dont trust it and this shows why) So I thought i’d check what is the EL/TL policy for payg at Farringdon* and stumbled on this thread about this very poster/machine.

tbh if this is how life is after paper tickets i may just move to taxis, its not about money. I just dont want the hassle / risk.

* if anyone can point me to this i’d appreciate it, as quite simply i’m too scared to use EL /TL at Farringdon unless ive a paper travelcard, dodging bullets and scam signage isnt my preferred way to travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

No.

Yes

 

[MikeWh]

Hi @Sm5,

Thank you for confirming what happened. Please do contact the helpdesk as suggested above, and they will correct it to one fare. The customer correction mechanism doesn't cope well with a missing touch in the middle of a journey, but the helpdesk will be able to resolve it.

If you feel able, please can you send me a private message with either your Oystercard number or the full journey history with the date. I'd like to be able to pinpoint actual evidence to assist the tech team in working out what happened. I do not need to know the security answer. If it was contactless then just the full journey history with touches expanded.

The policy for touching at Farringdon is quite straightforward, but it's been mucked up, probably by some high-level execs being involved just after the Elizabeth line opened. If you are changing trains in the middle of a PAYG journey then you do not need to touch, despite what any posters say. The only exception is if you find yourself being directed via the two gatelines on opposite sides of the road, but those two touches will be joined together by an OSI. If you are using a traditional ticket for the Thameslink part of the journey and want to use PAYG on either LU or EL, then you do need to touch a validator to start or end your journey.

The other thing that would be useful is if you could confirm what you touched at Custom House. Main gate or side gate to exit (probably main) and rough location of the validator for the DLR. Custom House is the other interchange that was not thought through with the EL, and it's just possible that something there is overriding the continuation exit from Farringdon. Hopefully, your experience can enable TfL to resolve the issue(s) once and for all.

I was part way through researching the Farringdon issue when I became ill, but your experience gives me enough to finish a write-up on my site, so watch this space.

 

[Sm5]

Thanks Mike,

ive sent you over some details.

just one point below (and totally unrelated)..

Hi @Sm5,

If you are changing trains in the middle of a PAYG journey then you do not need to touch, despite what any posters say. The only exception is if you find yourself being directed via the two gatelines on opposite sides of the road, but those two touches will be joined together by an OSI.

more than a year ago I interchanged at Moorgate from Tube to GN, theres a validator just before the Moorgate GN platform there asking people to tap in too, is this correct to ignore ?

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for the DM. I'm out this evening doing some other research into this issue and I'll reply later.

more than a year ago I interchanged at Moorgate from Tube to GN, theres a validator just before the Moorgate GN platform there asking people to tap in too, is this correct to ignore ?

If making a wholly PAYG journey then yes, ignore it. They are there for people using a traditional ticket to go beyond the Oyster area on GN.

 

[Nottingham59]

I've just taken a photo of the notice at Highbury & Islington saying "National Rail ticket holders only".

View attachment 131265

Whatever TfL thinks it means, the notices on the wall are still an instruction for all oyster and contactless users to touch their card on the reader, with a separate notice that says that there is a special exemption/procedure that applies to "National Rail ticket holders only". I know that's not what is intended, but it makes me despair that TfL is capable of making such a hash of what should be simple instructions.

 

[trek]

Good to see the misleading messaging being reiterated in guides like this one on Youtube... not

And the poster of the video having an arguement with @MikeWh in the comments about the incorrect procedure being showcased, insisting that they are correct!

 

[Starmill]

I've seen someone trying to touch their paper Travelcard on the reader. To be fair, if I didn't know better, I'd think that the sign meant I had to as well.

 

[Peter Sarf]

ive emailed them, and having now seen this thread i’ll send them a copy of it.

However it would seem theres a bigger issue here, in that innocent people could be caught out on a more legal aspect, where would they stand on this ?

Really tfl should be proactively resolving this. Its clearly wrong, I only went looking for this as I checked tonight as it felt weird at the time, and i dont use payg very often at all (I simply dont trust it and this shows why) So I thought i’d check what is the EL/TL policy for payg at Farringdon* and stumbled on this thread about this very poster/machine.

tbh if this is how life is after paper tickets i may just move to taxis, its not about money. I just dont want the hassle / risk.

* if anyone can point me to this i’d appreciate it, as quite simply i’m too scared to use EL /TL at Farringdon unless ive a paper travelcard, dodging bullets and scam signage isnt my preferred way to travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==


Yes

This was my kind of headache before I got an over 60s Oyster. I always used to buy a paper travelcard so I knew I was not at risk of something beyond my control. Even meant using an Oyster PAYG for the bus to the station.

Now my worry with my over 60s Oyster is, if I appear to be breaking rules, that it will be taken away from me eventually.

If the route involved Chiltern I can imagine it would end up in court. Most of would have no idea what we had done let alone that we were totally innocent.

 

[MikeWh]

Now my worry with my over 60s Oyster is, if I appear to be breaking rules, that it will be taken away from me eventually.

The over 60s Oyster is an off-peak travelcard. This means that there is no penalty for forgetting to touch sometimes. The only way you'll be in trouble is if you use it on the wrong services (eg Greater Anglia at Shenfield instead of Elizabeth Line) or you use it before the end of the morning peak.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The over 60s Oyster is an off-peak travelcard. This means that there is no penalty for forgetting to touch sometimes. The only way you'll be in trouble is if you use it on the wrong services (eg Greater Anglia at Shenfield instead of Elizabeth Line) or you use it before the end of the morning peak.

Thanks. Its always a worry with things that are not so visible. Especially as I burnt my fingers more than once on PAYG, that was visible !.

Once I spent an extra £35 roughly on an off peak day because I did/did-not touch out at Brentford station which has no barriers but a reader at the bottom of the steps. Too many hands reaching out with cards so I never knew if I had successfully touched out. Services that day had been totally screwed so I was also well over a journey time limit. That meant I had broken the rules twice so and cap no longer worked apparently. Resorted to paper tickets after that.

At gated stations I am careful to make sure the gates close first before I touch in/out. Slows things down but otherwise I cannot tell if the touch has been read - I could effectively be inadvertently tailgating which in itself is one misdemeanour BUT I would also have failed to touch on/out !.

Another confusing card reader is at Wimbledon when coming off the tram and going on another train or vice versa. I reckon I understand it but of course the signs there could be wrong like the reader at Farringdon. I have watched many people ask what they should do there and the conclusion is go right out of the station through the barriers and come back in again. That has got to be safest ?.

I suppose that is an option at Farringdon (to go out to the street and return) as that forces someone to use their ticket if appropriate and then the card - or vice versa.

I know some people touch every reader they pass (pink or otherwise) !.

 

[A Challenge]

Another confusing card reader is at Wimbledon when coming off the tram and going on another train or vice versa. I reckon I understand it but of course the signs there could be wrong. I have watched many people ask what they should do there and the conclusion is go right out of the station through the barriers and come back in again. That has got to be safest ?.

If you go all the way out the barriers when getting on or off a tram at Wimbledon, you will be charged the right fare, however you may also end up going much further than needed. You should be able to do the interchange with just one tap, on a yellow reader for tram to LU/NR or a green reader for LU/NR to tram.

See more detail on @MikeWh's simple guide to Wimbledon at https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/wimbledon/ which I used to check I'd got that right

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you go all the way out the barriers when getting on or off a tram at Wimbledon, you will be charged the right fare, however you may also end up going much further than needed. You should be able to do the interchange with just one tap, on a yellow reader for tram to LU/NR or a green reader for LU/NR to tram.

See more detail on @MikeWh's simple guide to Wimbledon at https://oysterfares.com/information-pages/wimbledon/ which I used to check I'd got that right

Thanks. That is very very interesting and useful. Now I know why I am not sure at Wimbledon. Really have to be an expert before travelling !. It would be better if the tram was not inside Wimbledon station really. I suppose the parallel at Farringdon is a gate line at the top of the Elizabeth line escalators so everyone is forced to use a ticket of some sort if interchanging.

 

[MikeWh]

Once I spent an extra £35 roughly on an off peak day because I did/did-not touch out at Brentford station which has no barriers but a reader at the bottom of the steps. Too many hands reaching out with cards so I never knew if I had successfully touched out. Services that day had been totally screwed so I was also well over a journey time limit. That meant I had broken the rules twice so and cap no longer worked apparently. Resorted to paper tickets after that.

Did you phone the helpdesk? I'm sure that would have been refunded down to the daily cap if you'd asked.

Another confusing card reader is at Wimbledon when coming off the tram and going on another train or vice versa. I reckon I understand it but of course the signs there could be wrong like the reader at Farringdon. I have watched many people ask what they should do there and the conclusion is go right out of the station through the barriers and come back in again. That has got to be safest ?.

Well it will ensure the correct charge, but at the expense of bigger crowds. The signs are much improved on their first attempt.

I suppose the parallel at Farringdon is a gate line at the top of the Elizabeth line escalators so everyone is forced to use a ticket of some sort if interchanging.

Would need to be two gatelines like at Southwark/Waterloo East.

I know some people touch every reader they pass (pink or otherwise) !.

That could cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Did you phone the helpdesk? I'm sure that would have been refunded down to the daily cap if you'd asked.

I did, queue and long call. The guy gradually worked out each bit to refund step by step. It came to a bit less than I expected as he did not just subtract enough from the total to make it a one day cap. The agony during the day was travelling all day having to repeatedly top up !.

A snag is I had to nominate a station to pick up the credit within one week, I did not travel often so longer than a week would be helpful. I chose East Croydon. In the end I walked into town on the last day told the station staff what I was doing. Touched in, turned round and touched back out. Got the refund but was deducted an amount for going in and straight back out - a few £s iirc !. A few weeks later I was in Morden so asked at the tube ticket office. The guy in the ticket office said he did not need to know or care what I was trying to do but would refund the penalty from East Croydon as he could see it and it was obviously illogical.

Well it will ensure the correct charge, but at the expense of bigger crowds. The signs are much improved on their first attempt.

Yes I think the signs are better recently. I do find people overlook the difference between the the two sorts of Oyster validators on Platforms 9 & 10 at Wimbledon.

Would need to be two gatelines like at Southwark/Waterloo East.

Of course you are right !.

That could cause more problems than it solves.

Yes. I even see people touching out at card readers at plain tram stops (I guess they have forgotten to touch out on normal train journeys) !. I suppose the system probably can spot and ignore that ?.

---

By the way Mike. Your web information is a wonderful piece of work. A frightening amount to take in and I have not read it all - yet. Some will blame it for being complicated BUT it reflects the complicated reality. Thanks.

 

[MikeWh]

I suppose the system probably can spot and ignore that ?.

Yes, it'll just be a hopper fare in 99% of cases, so free.

 

[Starmill]

The helpdesk should be able organise a refund via bank transfer if going to a station is not convenient for you. This isn't the preferred option and I think it can only be done by telephone but you do not have to go to a station. They used to offer posting a voucher or cheque if the seven day window weren't convenient for you but I think that these options have been retired.

 

[Sm5]

Thanks for the DM. I'm out this evening doing some other research into this issue and I'll reply later.

If making a wholly PAYG journey then yes, ignore it. They are there for people using a traditional ticket to go beyond the Oyster area on GN.

Just to say thanks to Mikes help, my journey was amended and a second refund given.

it now shows as a single journey from London Bridge to Royal Victoria.

 

[kevinchoi1997]

Where can I find that standalone validator from the 1st post? Is it at the top of the escalators after going up from the Elizabeth Line?

I'm planning to get from Stratford to Gatwick via the Elizabeth Line and changing to Thameslink at Farringdon. The cheapest return fare I can find is using Oyster between Stratford and Farringdon (£1.80 each way), then using an Anytime Day Return (£16.15 return). Is this correct, or is there a cheaper method on this route? My outbound is on Friday evening and coming back on a bank holiday monday, and also using a 16-25 railcard.

 

[miklcct]

Where can I find that standalone validator from the 1st post? Is it at the top of the escalators after going up from the Elizabeth Line?

I'm planning to get from Stratford to Gatwick via the Elizabeth Line and changing to Thameslink at Farringdon. The cheapest return fare I can find is using Oyster between Stratford and Farringdon (£1.80 each way), then using an Anytime Day Return (£16.15 return). Is this correct, or is there a cheaper method on this route? My outbound is on Friday evening and coming back on a bank holiday monday, and also using a 16-25 railcard.

You need an Off-Peak Return, not an Anytime Day Return.

 

[TFN]

Where can I find that standalone validator from the 1st post? Is it at the top of the escalators after going up from the Elizabeth Line?

I'm planning to get from Stratford to Gatwick via the Elizabeth Line and changing to Thameslink at Farringdon. The cheapest return fare I can find is using Oyster between Stratford and Farringdon (£1.80 each way), then using an Anytime Day Return (£16.15 return). Is this correct, or is there a cheaper method on this route? My outbound is on Friday evening and coming back on a bank holiday monday, and also using a 16-25 railcard.

An anytime day return wouldn't be valid traveling on a Friday then coming back on a Monday. It's only valid for a return on the same day.

If you have your railcard set on your oyster, you can get from Stratford to Gatwick for £8.05 off peak. (Peak is Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900).

You also don't need to tap at Farringdon if you're doing this, just change platforms as normal.

 

[Benjwri]

An anytime day return wouldn't be valid traveling on a Friday then coming back on a Monday. It's only valid for a return on the same day.

The OP was referring to an Anytime Return, which is available for the price they stated. There is no Anytime Day Return on that flow.

 

[kevinchoi1997]

Yep typo I meant the £16.10 Anytime Return rather than Anytime Day Return. Also, I'll be travelling between 4-7pm so using Oyster the whole way would be a lot more expensive, which is why Im just wondering where the standalone oyster validator is at Farringdon

 

[Horizon22]

Yep typo I meant the £16.10 Anytime Return rather than Anytime Day Return. Also, I'll be travelling between 4-7pm so using Oyster the whole way would be a lot more expensive, which is why Im just wondering where the standalone oyster validator is at Farringdon

It's on the interchange between the Northbound (coming from Gatwick / Brighton, towards St Pancras and Luton) TL platform and the same level interchange towards the escalators down to the Elizabeth line.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Where can I find that standalone validator from the 1st post? Is it at the top of the escalators after going up from the Elizabeth Line?

I'm planning to get from Stratford to Gatwick via the Elizabeth Line and changing to Thameslink at Farringdon. The cheapest return fare I can find is using Oyster between Stratford and Farringdon (£1.80 each way), then using an Anytime Day Return (£16.15 return). Is this correct, or is there a cheaper method on this route? My outbound is on Friday evening and coming back on a bank holiday monday, and also using a 16-25 railcard.

The validator I know of is located towards the rear of the Northbound Thameslink platform facing the trains. You will see it and pass it on your right hand side as you leave the Northbound platform. It is just as you make your way from the platform to the short escalators leading up towards to the new concourse, then just beyond those escalators are the escalators down to the Elizabeth Line. If you are travelling Stratford to Gatwick you wont pass it but there might be one on the Southbound Thameslink side, the photo in post number one might be that side.

I have stood and read that sign and I still cannot make up my mind - so I ignore the validator. I think its position is to pick up people who have travelled from outside Oyster land from the South. You are unlikely to notice it if walking onto the Northbound Thameslink platform.

 

[Watershed]

Yep typo I meant the £16.10 Anytime Return rather than Anytime Day Return. Also, I'll be travelling between 4-7pm so using Oyster the whole way would be a lot more expensive, which is why Im just wondering where the standalone oyster validator is at Farringdon

Yes, that's by far the cheapest option. The £16.10 Anytime Return is very good value.

There are standalone validators in two places at Farringdon. First of all, next to the couple of steps between the southbound Thameslink and northbound Sub Surface (Met/H&C/Circle lines) platforms. Secondly, roughly half-way between the northbound Thameslink platform and the Elizabeth line - at the intermediate floor where you have to make a 180° turn to/from the Elizabeth line escalators.

 

[Haywain]

It's on the interchange between the Northbound (coming from Gatwick / Brighton, towards St Pancras and Luton) TL platform and the same level interchange towards the escalators down to the Elizabeth line.

At the top of the escalators, on the left.

 

[Horizon22]

I have stood and read that sign and I still cannot make up my mind - so I ignore the validator. I think its position is to pick up people who have travelled from outside Oyster land from the South. You are unlikely to notice it if walking onto the Northbound Thameslink platform.

Indeed, it is basically intended for anyone south of Gatwick (end of Oyster) coming into London with a traditional paper ticket changing to the EL who wouldn't naturally go through a gateline otherwise and cannot "start" their contactless/Oyster journey leading to an incomplete journey with TfL.

Why it wasn't considered for the Southbound platform for the same scenario, I do not know.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, that's by far the cheapest option. The £16.10 Anytime Return is very good value.

There are standalone validators in two places at Farringdon. First of all, next to the couple of steps between the southbound Thameslink and northbound Sub Surface (Met/H&C/Circle lines) platforms. Secondly, roughly half-way between the northbound Thameslink platform and the Elizabeth line - at the intermediate floor where you have to make a 180° turn to/from the Elizabeth line escalators.

There are a couple more on the westbound sub-surface platform.