Misleading Information by Conductor

[Deckard_91]

At this stage and taking in the feedback/comments, would it be recommended to just take the hit and it be a lesson learnt to make sure to buy an advanced ticket before boarding?

 

[furlong]

As I could see the train just pulling up, I walked to the end carriage and spoke to the train staff member on duty and asked if I could purchase a ticket on the train. He advised me that I could board the train and buy a ticket at Victoria station which I did.

So the question here is why the response to this appeal has not commented on the ONLY part of that appeal which was directly relevant in terms of the regulations! The correct procedure was for the appeals panel to ask the train company about that and then take its reply into account in its decision.

You need to appeal again, but this time write your appeal in formal language, quoting from the regulations (I quoted the key parts in an earlier post) including the parts explaining how they must come to their decision. We've a couple of recent threads demonstrating how to do this, although your situation is much simpler.

 

[AlterEgo]

The big question is of course why the appeal response didn’t include a rebuttal or even acknowledgement of the alleged permission.

 

[fandroid]

The question of permission being granted to travel was not addressed at all in the appeal body's response. So that means there is a case to be presented.

It would now be best to get someone from here to give exact advice in how to effectively present the appeal so that it fits with the requirements of the regulations. In addition they should be able to suggest a wording that compels the appeals body to approach the appeal in the way the regulations require them to.

Lastly it could be worth checking the Penalty Fare notices at Littleborough. They have to be quite obvious to anyone entering the station and the important bits of the wording must be exactly as the Regulations state. Posting a photo on here of one of the notices will allow us to check that wording.

NOTE. My post here was overtaken by the previous two. There's nothing contradictory there, though.

 

[Titfield]

Regardless of the legalities, unless you have verifiable evidence that the train guard gave permission to board without a ticket, it will be difficult to appeal successfully as it would be your word against theirs.

I am struggling how this squares with post26 by @furlong ?

 

[island]

I am struggling how this squares with post26 by @furlong ?

It's simply the fact that how things theoretically work in law does not always correspond with how they actually work in reality.

 

[KirkstallOne]

It seems to me that given this is probably a defence advanced by many recipients of penalty fares, that the appeals body will be minded to reject it unless there is compelling proof of permission. Otherwise there would almost be no point in issuing penalty fares as they would be overturned on appeal almost as a matter of course.

Given they seem incapable of enforcing payment of a penalty fare that is appealed then I would suggest they are in a very similar position at the moment.

 

[island]

Given they seem incapable of enforcing payment of a penalty fare that is appealed then I would suggest they are in a very similar position at the moment.

Whilst a criminal prosecution for the common fare evasion offences can’t be commenced once a penalty fare appeal has been determined, it is open to the train company to sue the passenger in the county court for the sum.

I am not aware of this being a common occurrence.

 

[Watershed]

I am not aware of this being a common occurrence.

It's fair to say that we have never heard of such a case. Obviously that doesn't rule out the possibility of it happening in the future, but given the volume of cases that we see on the forum, we can be fairly confident that this isn't a practice currently engaged in by any of the TOCs.

 

[island]

It's fair to say that we have never heard of such a case. Obviously that doesn't rule out the possibility of it happening in the future, but given the volume of cases that we see on the forum, we can be fairly confident that this isn't a practice currently engaged in by any of the TOCs.

Indeed. The word used, however, was "incapable", which they are not.

 

[RPI]

TOC's have started using the County Courts for reclaiming fares owed, I'm only aware of this being used in cases of large booking history cases that are beyond six months, but I definitely wouldn't bank on this method not being used for unpaid Penalty Fares, particularly now that the amount would be at least £100 in each case. When it was £20 it wasn't worth the hassle of doing it, thats changed.