Minimum transfer time using the Underground

[ngood77]

Hi guys,

I'm aware of the minimum interchange times for stations but I cannot find any information to help me establish if there is a minimum transfer time between tube stations.

For example, I'll be travelling between Dunton Green and King's Cross on Friday 6th May. I will arrive at London Bridge 43 minutes before my train leaves KC. Is that officially sufficient for me so that, if there are any delays on my way to KC, I will be able to travel on the next available train without penalty ?

Also, I will be travelling with a friend, using a Two Together railcard, so presumably if one of us is delayed there is no penalty if we get the next available train, so long as we both have taken account of our respective connection times ?

Many thanks, as ever.

Nick.

 

[Romilly]

I think that the time to allow for getting from London Bridge to Kings X is 50 minutes: that is intended to cover getting into and out of, and travelling on, the underground.

As you and your friend are travelling on a Two Together railcard, you have to travel together at all times while using tickets that have a Two Together discount: I am therefore at a loss to see how one only of you could be late (unless you are using undiscounted tickets to get to Kings X and then using discounted tickets for onwards travel).

If you want more detailed advice, maybe tell us what tickets (type and origin/destination) you are planning to use.

 

[cuccir]

There is a table of cross-London connection times. It's a bit hard to track down, but there's a copy on page 46 of this document. As you can see, London-Bridge to Kings Cross is 50 minutes, so a 43 minute connection won't cover you, no.

However, a couple of other points might be worth noting. What you're covered for depends on the tickets that you're travelling with! The following is based on your planned journey being Dunton Green - London Bridge - Kings Cross - Destination.

The basic principle is that travel on the 'National Rail' network is always covered AND that travel using 'National Rail' products on other networks is also covered.

So if you're using a through ticket from Dunton Green to Destination, then you're covered for delays on the Tube (and from Dunton Green-London Bridge) if you leave 50 minutes for connection, because you're on a National Rail product, even if your delay occurs on the TfL run Tube. If you buy a ticket from Dunton Green - London Bridge, use Oyster to travel London Bridge-Kings Cross, and then Kings Cross-Destination, you're not covered as you've split your National Rail journey with a TfL product on TfL.

Your second question suggests that you have a ticket with your friend, using a 2-Together Railcard, from Kings Cross-Destination? If that's the case, you must travel together. What ticket type is it (Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Advance?)

 

[ngood77]

Ok, thanks both.

50 minutes is over the top, but it sounds academic given what you say, cuccir, as I will indeed have a separate ticket from DG to LB and then an Oyster trip to KC.

Is that definitely the policy ? Doesn't sound fair to me, a delay is a delay regardless of how I get between stations.

The question re. the Two Together railcard was this :-

We are only travelling together for the KC to Destination leg, we are making our own ways to KC. So, if either of us were delayed on that journey to KC, and we had met the minimum connection criteria, then we'd simply get the next available train to our destination, without penalty ?

As an aside, how on earth would the Virgin Trains, say, conductor know if there had actually been a delay or not to my connecting trains ?

Best.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The table in that doc says it's a guide only.

 

[cuccir]

Is that definitely the policy ? Doesn't sound fair to me, a delay is a delay regardless of how I get between stations.

But what do you want the train companies to be responsible for? You could get a bus and there's a traffic jam; you might be meeting a friend who was going to give you a lift, who turns up late; you might walk and get lost.

A through ticket to your destination from your origin presumably exists - if you want to 100% be covered then you need to buy that ticket. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you'd also be covered (if you left 50 minutes) if you purchased a ticket from Dunton Green to London Terminals with a travelcard, as you're travelling on a National Rail product.

So, if either of us were delayed on that journey to KC, and we had met the minimum connection criteria, then we'd simply get the next available train to our destination, without penalty ?

Not for a 'Two Together' ticket to be valid. That ticket is only valid with both of you there. As noted above, you're also not covered if you're travelling on the tube, on Oyster.

I'm presuming you're on 'Advance' tickets from Kings Cross, from your questions. Is that correct, or are they 'Anytime/Off-Peak'? If they're the latter, you aren't necessarily tied to your booked train, so if one of you were delayed, you could both wait.

The table in that doc says it's a guide only.

It does, but if you look at the wording that intention is to mean that it's not promising that you will definitely be able to do it in that time - the next line is ' extra time should be allowed during the early morning/late evening and on Sundays.' Those are the times used to determine if a connection is valid*


*Yes, I agree that they are frustratingly long.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a potential can of worms here with "Advances" with the two-together railcard anyway, because you could end up with only one of you having a valid reason for missing the departure time at KX.

In other words suppose that first passenger is at Kings Cross on time, with a two together ticket but only one of the named pair there, and possibly the other person has the railcard. Can the first person to arrive still claim to be delayed?

 

[ngood77]

But what do you want the train companies to be responsible for?

I expect, where I have valid tickets, for any delay to any of those journeys to not mean I am penalised for missing a connection, so long as I have left sufficient time for those connections.

A through ticket to your destination from your origin presumably exists - if you want to 100% be covered then you need to buy that ticket.

I already have a Gold Card between DG and London Terminals.

Not for a 'Two Together' ticket to be valid. That ticket is only valid with both of you there.

Yes, I am aware of that so, if either of us were delayed, then we'd BOTH simply get the next available train together even though only one of us was delayed en route ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a potential can of worms here with "Advances" with the two-together railcard anyway, because you could end up with only one of you having a valid reason for missing the departure time at KX.

In other words suppose that first passenger is at Kings Cross on time, with a two together ticket but only one of the named pair there, and possibly the other person has the railcard. Can the first person to arrive still claim to be delayed?

My point precisely. The answer must surely be yes.

 

[talldave]

Delays prior to the start of the Two Together journey are not covered, so surely it's a non-question? People travelling on Two Together tickets cannot suffer different delays because they're "together".

 

[dave75]

Delays prior to the start of the Two Together journey are not covered, so surely it's a non-question? People travelling on Two Together tickets cannot suffer different delays because they're "together".

I often do similar journeys. When I book advance journeys to Liverpool or Manchester from Euston, I use a two together railcard with my wife. We start from Chelmsford to Liverpool Street using our gold cards, then use Oyster for Liv St to Euston. So are we not covered in the event of a delay between Liv st and Euston? And between Chelmsford and Liv St are we not covered as we are not using two together tickets for that leg?

 

[cuccir]

I expect, where I have valid tickets, for any delay to any of those journeys to not mean I am penalised for missing a connection, so long as I have left sufficient time for those connections.

But you don't hold valid tickets for train travel between London Bridge and Kings Cross. You're intending to buy a TfL ticket for the Tube. Again, the TOCs don't take responsibility for journeys that they haven't sold you, and don't operate.

To guarantee your travel, I would recommend buying a train ticket that covers you from a National Rail station to Kings Cross. If you have a season ticket, you could do this from a station much closer to London than DG. Someone with better local knowledge should be able to advise.

Re: the Two-Together ticket: OK, so you are travelling on an Advance fare? We have asked this question twice. If you both hold tickets for a through journey, with minimum connections etc, then yes I agree there's a chance you'd both be allowed to travel on a later train, though I'd hesitate to tell you that you will definitely be allowed: I'm not sure if there's guidance on this and I'd suggesting asking the TOC in question.

None of this prevents you trying to travel on the day. I'd estimate a 30-50% chance that if you're nice about it, guards may let you travel anyway if delayed en route.

 

[ngood77]

Delays prior to the start of the Two Together journey are not covered, so surely it's a non-question? People travelling on Two Together tickets cannot suffer different delays because they're "together".

And if they WERE covered (by both us having valid, yet different, through tickets) ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But you don't hold valid tickets for train travel between London Bridge and Kings Cross. You're intending to buy a TfL ticket for the Tube. Again, the TOCs don't take responsibility for journeys that they haven't sold you, and don't operate.

To guarantee your travel, I would recommend buying a train ticket that covers you from a National Rail station to Kings Cross. If you have a season ticket, you could do this from a station much closer to London than DG. Someone with better local knowledge should be able to advise.

Re: the Two-Together ticket: OK, so you are travelling on an Advance fare? We have asked this question twice. If you both hold tickets for a through journey, with minimum connections etc, then yes I agree there's a chance you'd both be allowed to travel on a later train, though I'd hesitate to tell you that you will definitely be allowed: I'm not sure if there's guidance on this and I'd suggesting asking the TOC in question.

None of this prevents you trying to travel on the day. I'd estimate a 30-50% chance that if you're nice about it, guards may let you travel anyway if delayed en route.

The Advance ticket point isn't relevant to the question so I didn't want to muddy things.

Good advice re buying a ticket from a closer station. New Cross will do me. Thanks.

 

[cuccir]

I often do similar journeys. When I book advance journeys to Liverpool or Manchester from Euston, I use a two together railcard with my wife. We start from Chelmsford to Liverpool Street using our gold cards, then use Oyster for Liv St to Euston. So are we not covered in the event of a delay between Liv st and Euston? And between Chelmsford and Liv St are we not covered as we are not using two together tickets for that leg?

Strictly speaking, no you're not covered because you're using Oyster between Liv St and Euston.

To clarify the point - you're covered if you hold National/Network Rail tickets for your whole journey. It doesn't matter if you don't use TTR (two-together railcard) tickets for the whole bit.

I have a season ticket Durham-Newcastle. If Mrs Cuccir and I have an TTR Advance from Newcastle - Carlisle and are delayed together from Durham-Newcastle, me on my season ticket and her on an Off Peak Return, we're covered in the event of a delay. If we were to both a buy a Metro ticket from Gateshead and travel via the Tyne and Wear Metro to Newcastle station, we wouldn't be covered in the event of a delay.

The question is if two people travel separately from different stations, then meet and travel on a TTR ticket together, are they allowed to travel later if one of them is delayed on the first leg?

 

[Romilly]

"We're using our season tickets into London, Oyster across London, and then London-to-exciting-destination tickets to get us to (and back from) the place we're travelling to" - at first sight, this sort of combination of tickets is such an obvious and natural thing to do that it maybe doesn't even occur to the passenger that they are engaging in "split ticketing". But in fact they are and, whether or not they have even found out the price of through tickets for their whole journey, the chances are that their combining of tickets saves them money as compared with buying through tickets.

There are three possible outcomes: (i) every train/tube is on time so they don't have to worry about delays; (ii) there are delays, but rail staff confirm that travel on the next available train is fine; and (iii) there are delays and the passengers are considered to lack valid tickets for a leg of their journey and have to buy replacement tickets (or pay a penal price for their fare if they don't sort out their tickets before commencing their post-delay leg).

A passenger will want the outcome to be (i) but can live with (ii). They will not want to be dragged into (iii) as a result of inconsistent views as to whether their journey is one journey in three legs or three separate journeys, or as to whether or when a connecting journey on e.g. the London Underground counts as part of a cross-London National Rail journey.

But a passenger unthinkingly opting for the combination of tickets I described at the beginning of this post risks finding themselves in (iii). At best, it seems, our transport systems can be seen as being no more than semi-integrated. On the other hand, it is clear that if you go (wittingly or unwittingly) for a cheaper option, you may find that you have fewer rights than you would have if you'd gone for a more expensive option - that is not an outcome unique to the railways.

 

[Haywain]

TOCs do not all exercise the same interpretation of rules on dealing with delays and whether through tickets are required. VTEC (at Kings Cross) are generally slightly less strict than suggested above. However, I would very strongly advise allowing the suggested connection time if you want a strong chance of receiving sympathetic treatment. If one is late and the other on time, I would advise approaching ticket office staff as soon as the one who is on time becomes aware of the potential problem - this could help to resolve your difficulties in good time.

 

[maniacmartin]

Strictly speaking, no you're not covered because you're using Oyster between Liv St and Euston.

I'm not sure that this is actually the case - but I don't think there is any official documentation either way. I think the biggest problem with Oyster is that you can't buy the 'ticket' in advance, so you can't prove that you were always intending to travel on at that time etc.

I would, however, avoid using Oyster for the middle connection if connecting to an Advance ticket as your rights are not as clear cut, and some TOCs struggle to deal with claims on Oyster journeys correctly.

Consider buying one of the the tickets to or from Zone U1* Londn. This adds a cost that whilst more than the cost on Oyster off-peak, includes a single tube journey in the relevant zone (Zone 1 in this case), all on the same paper ticket.

 

[Haywain]

The Advance ticket point isn't relevant to the question so I didn't want to muddy things.

Good advice re buying a ticket from a closer station. New Cross will do me. Thanks.

I wouldn't bother buying a ticket from New Cross as that will only muddy things if you get delayed between Dunton Green and New Cross.

 

[dave75]

I'm not sure that this is actually the case - but I don't think there is any official documentation either way. I think the biggest problem with Oyster is that you can't buy the 'ticket' in advance, so you can't prove that you were always intending to travel on at that time etc.

I would, however, avoid using Oyster for the middle connection if connecting to an Advance ticket as your rights are not as clear cut, and some TOCs struggle to deal with claims on Oyster journeys correctly.

Consider buying one of the the tickets to or from Zone U1* Londn. This adds a cost that whilst more than the cost on Oyster off-peak, includes a single tube journey in the relevant zone (Zone 1 in this case), all on the same paper ticket.

I could buy a Liv St to Manchester ticket, very slightly more expensive than using an Oyster (1/3 off as gold card discount), and also a little more hassle than just looking at trains leaving Euston. I am aware of min connection times and meet them, I had assumed re split ticketing that as long as I leave CHM early enough to be on a train that met the min connection Liv St to Euston, this would not be a problem.

Good point re compensation using Oyster.

 

[ngood77]

I wouldn't bother buying a ticket from New Cross as that will only muddy things if you get delayed between Dunton Green and New Cross.

No, it doesn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for your replies, it's clearly yet another topic of confusion and uncertainty that exists with our railway system.

At the end of the day, I'll take my chance with the 43 minute connection time. VTEC staff at KC will have no way of establishing which train I was actually on from DG.

At the end of the day it's a shame we have to find sneaky ways to simply ensure correct treatment as a rail traveller.

Best.

 

[MikeWh]

VTEC staff at KC will have no way of establishing which train I was actually on from DG.

Well if the train you should have been on ran to time while the one you were on was delayed by 20 minutes you'll have to dream up an excuse for how long it took you to cross London.

 

[30907]

Just a detail: it's possible, even currently, to do Dunton Green to St Pancras TL entirely by NR, changing at Orpington/Petts Wood and Herne Hill. Slower though.

 

[John @ home]

What ticket type is it (Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak, Advance?)

The Advance ticket point isn't relevant to the question so I didn't want to muddy things.

In order to provide the best advice, it is important that we know whether you intend to travel on Advance tickets or not. If you do, our advice will be based on the train companies' Advance Fares FAQs, an internal industry document which is linked at the bottom of this post, and appears on this forum by permission of the Association of Train Operating Companies.

 

[ngood77]

Well if the train you should have been on ran to time while the one you were on was delayed by 20 minutes you'll have to dream up an excuse for how long it took you to cross London.

And they will actually look that up whilst I'm standing next to them at the KC ticket barrier ?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In order to provide the best advice, it is important that we know whether you intend to travel on Advance tickets or not. If you do, our advice will be based on the train companies' Advance Fares FAQs, an internal industry document which is linked at the bottom of this post, and appears on this forum by permission of the Association of Train Operating Companies.

Fair enough, but I was after rules confirmation rather than travel advice. Thanks.

 

[Haywain]

No, it doesn't.

Really? So you travel from Dunton Green and get delayed, but show the staff at Kings Cross a ticket from New Cross, which has far more trains to get you into central London, and yet expect them still to believe you were delayed from New Cross?

You may be surprised to learn that we try to give helpful advice on here. Mine is based on having a bit of knowledge of how things work at Kings Cross, and some experience of how VTEC interpret the "rules" on delays affecting Advance tickets. You would not be denied onward travel using a combination of tickets and Oyster that you propose, but you might be if you do not allow sufficient connection time. And unless you can be certain that a train earlier than the one you propose to use is also delayed, I don't really see how you are going to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And they will actually look that up whilst I'm standing next to them at the KC ticket barrier ?!

No, they'll ask you to go to the Travel Centre where the staff will look it up.

 

[ngood77]

Really? So you travel from Dunton Green and get delayed, but show the staff at Kings Cross a ticket from New Cross, which has far more trains to get you into central London, and yet expect them still to believe you were delayed from New Cross?



You may be surprised to learn that we try to give helpful advice on here. Mine is based on having a bit of knowledge of how things work at Kings Cross, and some experience of how VTEC interpret the "rules" on delays affecting Advance tickets. You would not be denied onward travel using a combination of tickets and Oyster that you propose, but you might be if you do not allow sufficient connection time. And unless you can be certain that a train earlier than the one you propose to use is also delayed, I don't really see how you are going to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Hang on, you've said something key there : are you saying that, so long as I allow for the official connection times, then I CAN use a combination of TOC and TfL tickets to get to KC ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, they'll ask you to go to the Travel Centre where the staff will look it up.

And prevent me from boarding a train that is shortly to depart ?

 

[bb21]

Hang on, you've said something key there : are you saying that, so long as I allow for the official connection times, then I CAN use a combination of TOC and TfL tickets to get to KC ?

Yes, you may use a combination of TfL and National Rail tickets.

Oyster PAYG doesn't count (or rather more precisely, the position of which is unclear), as no ticket is involved. Should you purchase a £4-whatever paper single ticket for a Zone 1 LUL journey in advance (which is a bit difficult these days granted), then you may combine that with your ticket(s) to London Bridge, and your ticket from King's Cross to form one complete journey and be covered.

And prevent me from boarding a train that is shortly to depart ?

If they have no way of verifying your story, they have the right to require you to have the correct ticket for the train you intend to catch before allowing you through the barrier. Whether that is good customer service or desirable for either party is up for debate.

Some TOCs have also equipped their station staff with smart phones these days, so confirming your story should take a matter of seconds in many cases.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, you may use a combination of TfL and National Rail tickets.

Oyster PAYG doesn't count (or rather more precisely, the position of which is unclear), as no ticket is involved.

As stated previously, TOCs may differ in their view of whether Oyster PAYG is or is not a ticket. I have given a view which I believe is relevant to the original question on this thread.

 

[Hadders]

I thought you could use Oyster PAYG to pay for travel between London Terminals but in the event of a delay you'd need to get validation from LUL staff.

 

[Phil.]

Hi guys,

I'm aware of the minimum interchange times for stations but I cannot find any information to help me establish if there is a minimum transfer time between tube stations.

For example, I'll be travelling between Dunton Green and King's Cross on Friday 6th May. I will arrive at London Bridge 43 minutes before my train leaves KC. Is that officially sufficient for me so that, if there are any delays on my way to KC, I will be able to travel on the next available train without penalty ?

Also, I will be travelling with a friend, using a Two Together railcard, so presumably if one of us is delayed there is no penalty if we get the next available train, so long as we both have taken account of our respective connection times ?

Many thanks, as ever.

Nick.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi guys,


Nick.

Forty three minutes is plenty of time to get from London Bridge to King's Cross. Although gaining access to LUL London Bridge is a bit of a lengthy maze the platform to platform journey time is but ten minutes. It's a journey I've made lots of times travelling from Redhill to King's Cross when Victoria's been discomknockerated.
Ten minutes from train to LUL platform.
Five minute wait for a train.
Ten minute Journey.
Five minutes LUL platform to King's Cross mainline.
I make that thirty minutes and I've quoted the worst case scenario with the exception of assuming an on-time arrival of your train into London Bridge.

 

[cuccir]

I think the thing is that pretty much everyone replying agrees that ngood77 probably ought to be OK if delayed, both from a perspective of what's right and how staff will interpret travel on the day.

Equally, I think if we're giving advice we need to be very clear that official rules doesn't support a 43 minute connection, doesn't support someone travelling on Oyster on the tube, and doesn't offer any clear advice on what happens when one traveller is delayed for a TTR ticket. There's a more than negligible chance that on the day, he'd face problems.

 

[ngood77]

Thanks everybody for your views, keeps us entertained, doesn't it ?! cuccir, you seem to have summarised things perfectly.

Enjoy the long weekend all.