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Minimum platform announcement to train departure time

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SHicjs

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Apologies if this has been asked before, but with the recent issues at Euston and based on an experience today at Paddington, where my platform was announced just 3 mins before the actual departure time, is there any enforced minimum time between platform announcement and train departure time?

If I cannot get from the concourse to the train in enough time, can I claim delay repay for a missed departure?

From a selfish view, thank goodness for opentraintimes and Traksy.
 
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kacper

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What's funny is Euston "closes" the platform about 3 minutes before departure, meaning you have to rush to your train while it says "platform closing"
 

johncrossley

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I wouldn't trust the railway to believe me if I am on an Advance ticket and I miss the train because of a platform alteration. I would expect them to prosecute me if I tried it. If I ever miss a train because of a platform alteration then I would end up buying a new walk up ticket.
 
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I have certainly seen 2mins notice at Marylebone in the past.

Due to disruption, one platform had two services in it, with the one at the country end due to depart 2min ahead of the one at the buffers, so the latter was only unlocked and displayed on the boards once the former had departed.

Chiltern apparently have a policy of refusing to advertise the rear train under these circumstances, even in exceptional cases like this, to stop people boarding the wrong one.
 

12LDA28C

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Apologies if this has been asked before, but with the recent issues at Euston and based on an experience today at Paddington, where my platform was announced just 3 mins before the actual departure time, is there any enforced minimum time between platform announcement and train departure time?

If I cannot get from the concourse to the train in enough time, can I claim delay repay for a missed departure?

From a selfish view, thank goodness for opentraintimes and Traksy.

If the inbound train arrives late or a fault on a train is being investigated that might cause a cancellation or set swap to be required, what do you propose as an alternative? Sometimes it simply isn't possible to give 20 or even 10 minutes notice for boarding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have certainly seen 2mins notice at Marylebone in the past.

Due to disruption, one platform had two services in it, with the one at the country end due to depart 2min ahead of the one at the buffers, so the latter was only unlocked and displayed on the boards once the former had departed.

Chiltern apparently have a policy of refusing to advertise the rear train under these circumstances, even in exceptional cases like this, to stop people boarding the wrong one.

Presumably this 'policy' was introduced as a result of people regularly boarding the wrong train and complaining as a result. Marylebone is a very small station and with only six platforms available, consecutive peak time trains sometimes depart from the same platforms three minutes apart.
 

occone

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Sadly not - I'd like to see the station minimum transfer time apply here given you may as well be transferring.

I've seen such awful rushes before at Birmingham New Street a few times before. I remember once when I had luggage it took about three lift journeys to get everyone over, and because I was in the last lift, as the lift doors open we were greeted to the platform staff dispatching the train. Being a Lawful Good type, I stepped back but one person was NOT happy that we didn't have a fair chance to get there, so she put her hand on the train and said it isn't moving until we were on and despite the protestations of staff, with much shouting and whistle blowing, amazingly it worked, they cancelled the dispatch and let us on.
 

12LDA28C

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Sadly not - I'd like to see the station minimum transfer time apply here given you may as well be transferring.

In certain situations that's simply not practicable though.
 

SamCam

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Yes it is - train just has to leave late, with attendant financial consequences for the operator.
Agreed - doesn't need to be 20 minutes, but at most larger stations a minimum of five minutes should be achievable most of the time.
 

The exile

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Agreed - doesn't need to be 20 minutes, but at most larger stations a minimum of five minutes should be achievable most of the time.
Whatever the advertised minimum connection time is should be the minimum time between notification of correct platform and departure time.
 

stuu

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There absolutely should be, with the train's rescheduled departure time advertised too. This would instantly solve the a lot of the issues at Euston
 

Taunton

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I have certainly seen 2mins notice at Marylebone in the past.

Due to disruption, one platform had two services in it, with the one at the country end due to depart 2min ahead of the one at the buffers, so the latter was only unlocked and displayed on the boards once the former had departed.

Chiltern apparently have a policy of refusing to advertise the rear train under these circumstances, even in exceptional cases like this, to stop people boarding the wrong one.
Marylebone also had a reputation for not putting it up at all by departure time in such situations, and the train leaving on time, empty.
 

12LDA28C

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Yes it is - train just has to leave late, with attendant financial consequences for the operator.

With the attendant potential for knock-on delays to other trains? The aim should be to achieve a punctual departure (or as close as possible) with everyone on board. It's pointless making a train late by waiting for several more minutes just to comply with some arbitrary minimum time between announcement and departure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There absolutely should be, with the train's rescheduled departure time advertised too. This would instantly solve the a lot of the issues at Euston

Would it? Maybe, but it would then cause more problems as the service would fall apart pretty quickly if trains were delayed by 'rescheduled departure time' in this manner.
 

stuu

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Would it? Maybe, but it would then cause more problems as the service would fall apart pretty quickly if trains were delayed by 'rescheduled departure time' in this manner.
So? The fact this doesn't happen already shows utter contempt for the passengers
 

RailWonderer

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This is the most passenger unfriendly situation I have heard of. The point of GBR in the coming years (if it even happens with this idiotic new govt we have) should be to make sure all platform announcements are listed besides the time and destination as soon as they are on the board like in much of Europe. If there is a platform alteration every now and again, passengers can huff and puff to the new platform, but this is a far better situation than what we have now at some termini in the UK. The situations with advance tickets is just as poor when they won't accept last minute platform annoucenments as a reason for not being able to board in time. Gateline staff often treat passengers like an inconvenience and it's not appropriate for a customer facing profession, at stations anyway. On trains I find the staff have a far better attitude.

Train cleaning is often the excuse but if they can clean the train as people are boarding, at restaurants and cafes, people sit down as the waiters clean the tables and floors when it's busy.
 

alxndr

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Whatever the advertised minimum connection time is should be the minimum time between notification of correct platform and departure time.
Half the full connection time, rounded up if necessary, might be more achievable. This seems reasonable on the assumption you would probably spend half the time walking to a central concourse area and don’t need the specifics of where your next train will be departing from as you aren’t there to find out anyway.
 

12LDA28C

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So? The fact this doesn't happen already shows utter contempt for the passengers

So? You'd be happy for potentially many more trains to be delayed, waiting for a 'rescheduled' train to leave when all passengers may already be on board? That shows rather more contempt for passengers on other trains.
 

stuu

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So? You'd be happy for potentially many more trains to be delayed, waiting for a 'rescheduled' train to leave when all passengers may already be on board? That shows rather more contempt for passengers on other trains.
Yes. For a start this sort of thing should only be needed when there is disruption anyway, so the other services are quite likely to be delayed anyway
 

The exile

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Half the full connection time, rounded up if necessary, might be more achievable. This seems reasonable on the assumption you would probably spend half the time walking to a central concourse area and don’t need the specifics of where your next train will be departing from as you aren’t there to find out anyway.
True (although with a minimum).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

With the attendant potential for knock-on delays to other trains? The aim should be to achieve a punctual departure (or as close as possible) with everyone on board. It's pointless making a train late by waiting for several more minutes just to comply with some arbitrary minimum time between announcement and departure.
Indeed - point is to breed into the culture that if (for example) the platform for the 10.00 from Great Snoring hasn’t been advertised by (say) 09.53, someone is going to have a lot of explaining to do and that if it is and there is a subsequent change, anyone who is unable to make that change gets VIP treatment from the railway until they have reached their final destination.
If systems can’t cope with being passenger friendly, then they need to be made to without delay - likewise humans.
 
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150219

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I have certainly seen 2mins notice at Marylebone in the past.

Due to disruption, one platform had two services in it, with the one at the country end due to depart 2min ahead of the one at the buffers, so the latter was only unlocked and displayed on the boards once the former had departed.

Chiltern apparently have a policy of refusing to advertise the rear train under these circumstances, even in exceptional cases like this, to stop people boarding the wrong one.
The headway at Marylebone is 3 minutes, so you won't find a booked 2 minute separation in the timetable; but let's not split hairs over a minute as the same predicament can occur with 3 minutes notice - so let's assume the train on top leaves at xx.00 and the next train's scheduled departure time is xx.02 - leaving a less than optimum time for boarding and dispatch to take place.

There is no such policy, but it's not common practice to advertise two trains on the same platform for the reason you mention. In the last few years there have been practical solutions implemented to try and ease the issues of tight boarding times, such as the introduction of boarding area A initially and subsequently boarding area B. More recently the implementation of 'dual-boarding' at Marylebone allowed certain services to be boarded twice whilst occupying one platform under certain circumstances, which were basically ensuring that there were means to ensure customers who were on the platform were able to get assistance for getting on the right train. Those have no doubt helped with information and customer flow around the station. In disruption the demand for customer assistance on the concourse with the staff that are available to do so means that the practicality of boarding two trains at once in the same platform is reduced.

Generally if the train is on the buffer stops of Platforms 1-3 then the ideal time to posting and removing the train from the boards is less than if the train is on Platforms 4-6 (on the buffer stops, or worse on the top of Platforms 5 & 6). Adding additional complications into the mix such as posting a busy train on Platform 4 and the same time as an arrival of a busy train on Platform 5 or 6 should be considered too, especially then if there is a train to be dispatched on Platform 3 first. There are temporary fences still in place to help segregation between Platform 3 and the cycle rack/through route to Platforms 4-6. So, it is sometimes helpful to deliberately not post a train until the customer flow has cleared - or post the train and temporarily take it off the board until the customer flow has cleared. There are lots of other methods of managing customer flow, but I do hope that provides a little more information or insight than might immediately be obvious.

There are times when trains are held and delayed on departure, with incoming services either being held outside or delayed waiting the same platform. However there must be a cut-off and that is usually down to communication with the dispatch staff, i.e., are there people still coming down the platform for the train. Is it perfect, no. Is there scope to improve, yes. A lot of this is down to decision making by the staff employed to do just that rather than decision making by machine, and they are held to account by everybody including themselves.

Marylebone also had a reputation for not putting it up at all by departure time in such situations, and the train leaving on time, empty.
It did? Must have passed me by!
 

riceuten

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At Kings Cross, there used to be (there still may be) an announcement precisely 3 minutes prior to departure saying that the train was "about to leave". USUALLY providing you were mobile, and unless you were at the western entrance, and the train was at platform 0, this is/was enough time. But this was rarely, if ever, the only announcement.WAGN (remember them?) used to have this ridiculous thing where they would not advertise the slow or semi-fast to Cambridge platform before the Cambridge Cruiser departed,or would advertise it as only going to Foxton. Occasionally when the Cambridge Cruiser was delayed, there would be almighty crush on platform 8 with disembarking passengers and intending passengers inconveniencing each other
 
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Re: Not allowing two different trains at the same platform to be boarded simultaneously at Marylebone:
There is no such policy, but it's not common practice to advertise two trains on the same platform for the reason you mention. In the last few years there have been practical solutions implemented to try and ease the issues of tight boarding times, such as the introduction of boarding area A initially and subsequently boarding area B. More recently the implementation of 'dual-boarding' at Marylebone allowed certain services to be boarded twice whilst occupying one platform under certain circumstances, which were basically ensuring that there were means to ensure customers who were on the platform were able to get assistance for getting on the right train. Those have no doubt helped with information and customer flow around the station.

The incident I saw happened just over a year ago and (having looked it up), it was actually 4mins between scheduled departure times, longer than I remembered but still not really enough, especially as the first train departed a bit late so the second was only advertised for 2-3mins.
I'm glad to hear that a more pragmatic approach is now being taken when you have two trains on the same platform scheduled to depart very close together.

When I raised it with Chiltern social media at the time, they advised that 'not advertising second train until first had left' was policy regardless of the time between them.
However it may be that it was custom and practice rather than formal policy. I've certainly never seen the 'dual boarding' happen, but it's probably less likely at the usual times I'm at the station.

Thankfully, unlike Euston, there is no restriction on getting through the gateline and often (with the help of Traksy/RTT) onto the train well before announcement.
 
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norbitonflyer

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I have certainly seen 2mins notice at Marylebone in the past.

Due to disruption, one platform had two services in it, with the one at the country end due to depart 2min ahead of the one at the buffers, so the latter was only unlocked and displayed on the boards once the former had departed.
It would be unusual for two trains to depart from the same platform so close together, so there would usually be enough time between departures of two trains from one platcfrm for the second to be announced in enough time.
 
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It would be unusual for two trains to depart from the same platform so close together, so there would usually be enough time between departures of two trains from one platcfrm for the second to be announced in enough time.
You'd think so, but according to RTT there's at least one daily pair of trains at Marylebone timetabled to depart the same platform within 5 mins of each other:
1728683695427.png
I've not been there to witness it, so can't speak for what actually happens in this case.
 

BrummieBobby

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I am unsure of the dispatch arrangements at Paddington, but if the platform has only been announced at very short notice, how can it safely be dispatched / TRTS be given if passengers are still dashing towards it?
 

12LDA28C

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You'd think so, but according to RTT there's at least one daily pair of trains at Marylebone timetabled to depart the same platform within 5 mins of each other:
View attachment 167190
I've not been there to witness it, so can't speak for what actually happens in this case.

The Birmingham train would most likely not be advertised until the Aylesbury train has started to move off, the driver would be in the cab of the Aylesbury train and release the doors as soon as the doors on 1R41 had closed.

As I've mentioned before there is an information screen near the buffer stops on Platform 1 which displays headcodes so anyone 'in the know' can instantly see where their train will be and make their way to the necessary platform before the train is displayed on departure screens.

The trains you quote though, don't depart from the same platform daily - if you check RTT this week they have departed from different platforms every day except Friday.
 

sammyg901

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The new "clockface" Chiltern timetable whether by design or co incidence removed the worst offenders that I used - I can't remember the exact timings but it was something like the 1721 and the 1730 were formed off of the same inbound working and the 1721 would often leave a couple of minutes late leaving very little time to board the 1730.

I have been at Marylebone at night when a train hasn't been displayed before , they did run and tell the driver and one of us went and shouted on the concourse. It may be my imagination but it feels better staffed at night now (though still a bit chaotic in disruption, twice recently I've seen trains go earlier than what the boards were saying leading to platform staff getting abuse)
 

MatthewHutton

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Yes it is - train just has to leave late, with attendant financial consequences for the operator.
With reserved seats a minimum of 7.5 minutes seems reasonable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You'd think so, but according to RTT there's at least one daily pair of trains at Marylebone timetabled to depart the same platform within 5 mins of each other:
View attachment 167190
I've not been there to witness it, so can't speak for what actually happens in this case.
Given Marylebone doesn't have reserved seat trains and the station is pretty small 4-5 minutes isn't unreasonable to board a train. Especially as the staff can let you wait by it ready.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

With the attendant potential for knock-on delays to other trains? The aim should be to achieve a punctual departure (or as close as possible) with everyone on board. It's pointless making a train late by waiting for several more minutes just to comply with some arbitrary minimum time between announcement and departure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Would it? Maybe, but it would then cause more problems as the service would fall apart pretty quickly if trains were delayed by 'rescheduled departure time' in this manner.
Avanti could make their service more reliable by all trains stopping at Milton Keynes and perhaps Watford Junction and Nuneaton (or none of their trains stopping there).

Then them going out in the wrong order matters a lot less.
 

Jim the Jim

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They don't need to delay the train to the full minimum connection time (which in many cases would inconvenience hundreds of people), but they should be willing to give out the appropriate delay repay to passengers who miss a train because they couldn't make it across the station in time.
 
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