Midnight - 0000?

[Western 52]

Just curious- last night as the new year started 6B47 passed Pembrey and Burry Port and was given a passing time of 0000. See attached link. I thought convention was to use 2359 or 0001?

Realtime Trains | 6B47 1904 Westerleigh Puma Dbc to Robeston Sdgs | 31/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 6B47 1904 departure from Westerleigh Puma Dbc to Robeston Sdgs on 31/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

Just curious- last night as the new year started 6B47 passed Pembrey and Burry Port and was given a passing time of 0000. See attached link. I thought convention was to use 2359 or 0001?

Realtime Trains | 6B47 1904 Westerleigh Puma Dbc to Robeston Sdgs | 31/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 6B47 1904 departure from Westerleigh Puma Dbc to Robeston Sdgs on 31/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Train schedules can't use midnight, as you say - the schedule data format doesn't support it.

But the passing time you see is the 'real time' one, which uses live data from Network Rail signalling feeds. These do support midnight timings - though in reality I suspect they also have more precision (i.e. the number of seconds).

 

[stadler]

Train schedules can't use midnight, as you say - the schedule data format doesn't support it.

But the passing time you see is the 'real time' one, which uses live data from Network Rail signalling feeds. These do support midnight timings - though in reality I suspect they also have more precision (i.e. the number of seconds).

It is worth pointing out that it is only England and Wales and Scotland that have that restriction of not being able to use 00:00 in the data. In both Northern Ireland and the Republic Of Ireland they have 00:00 services. Probably other countries too.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm not even sure how that's become 0000 as it's a manual time input as 2359. Sometimes auto times will report in as 0000, but manual ones can only be 2359 or 0001.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was always under the impression that midnight on the railway was known as 24:00.

 

[louis97]

I'm not even sure how that's become 0000 as it's a manual time input as 2359. Sometimes auto times will report in as 0000, but manual ones can only be 2359 or 0001.

RTT has an arrival report via TD using the last step on the PL train describer. If you hover over/click on a time in detailed mode, you can see the source of the reported time.

 

[Western 52]

I guess the passing time at Pembrey and Burry Port would be manual entry as this area is semaphore signalled?

 

[louis97]

I guess the passing time at Pembrey and Burry Port would be manual entry as this area is semaphore signalled?

See my previous point, and semaphore signalling doesn't mean manual entry for certain.

Pembrey fringes with the Llanelli workstation at Port Talbot, it is therefore possible to have an automatic report for the arrival in the down direction. The arrival report time is used to inform the passing reported time on RTT.

Pembrey boxes days are numbered, sometime this year it closes along with others when the line is resignalled, then it'll be full automatic reports through to Carmarthen. Assuming it isn't postponed again!

 

[Spartacus]

See my previous point, and semaphore signalling doesn't mean manual entry for certain.

Pembrey fringes with the Llanelli workstation at Port Talbot, it is therefore possible to have an automatic report for the arrival in the down direction. The arrival report time is used to inform the passing reported time on RTT.

Pembrey boxes days are numbered, sometime this year it closes along with others when the line is resignalled, then it'll be full automatic reports through to Carmarthen. Assuming it isn't postponed again!

It's showing manual in TRUST anyway, that's all I know.

 

[louis97]

It's showing manual in TRUST anyway, that's all I know.

Oh yeah it will do on TRUST. NR dont make use of the fringe data in this instance.

 

[Alfonso]

I was always under the impression that midnight on the railway was known as 24:00.

I thinknthis is one of the reasons it's avoided, as one person's 2400 (for example) Wednesday may be some one else's 0000 (for example ) Thursday, whereas 2359 is clearly very near the end of one day/date and 0001 very near the start of a different day/date

 

[12LDA28C]

I thinknthis is one of the reasons it's avoided, as one person's 2400 (for example) Wednesday may be some one else's 0000 (for example ) Thursday, whereas 2359 is clearly very near the end of one day/date and 0001 very near the start of a different day/date

But if that is the railway's way of avoiding 00:00 and everyone is aware of that, then there is surely no room for 'interpretation' and subsequent confusion.

 

[chrisjo]

During last month's 3-day power cut (for us), National Grid told us that we could expect our power to be restored at '12:00 pm' on a certain day. No body knew for sure what they actually meant by this, though many quoted 'definitive' evidence for their various interpretations, and in the event it didn't happen anyway. But I digress....

 

[TheTallOne]

During last month's 3-day power cut (for us), National Grid told us that we could expect our power to be restored at '12:00 pm' on a certain day. No body knew for sure what they actually meant by this, though many quoted 'definitive' evidence for their various interpretations, and in the event it didn't happen anyway. But I digress....

One would assume noon, lunchtime, etc.

Although technically, as I guess you might be hinting at, 12pm doesn’t exist. 12 noon does. 12.01pm does. (Due to the definition of PM)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

During last month's 3-day power cut (for us), National Grid told us that we could expect our power to be restored at '12:00 pm' on a certain day. No body knew for sure what they actually meant by this, though many quoted 'definitive' evidence for their various interpretations, and in the event it didn't happen anyway. But I digress....

Numerically 12am cannot possibly come before 1am, but it does by convention. 1am, 2am, etc to 11:59am then 12:00pm, 12:01 pm. Far better to use midday and midnight in publications, conversations etc but difficult for the machines. I visited a hospital where the TV was advertised as free until 12pm. Did that mean all day or until midday?

As for 24 hour clock, 23:59, 24:00, 00:01 does me just fine. 24.00 being the last (highest number) point in the day. The new day starts after midnight, not at midnight.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Thomas Cook's Continental Timetable had an editorial comment, no doubt written by the doyen of timetable compilers J.H.Price, to the effect that midnight arrivals were always shown as 24:00 and departures as 00:00.

 

[Harpo]

As for 24 hour clock, 23:59, 24:00, 00:01 does me just fine. 24.00 being the last (highest number) point in the day. The new day starts after midnight, not at midnight.

22.01 is preceded by 22.00.
23.01 is preceded by 23.00
so,
00.01 is preceded by 00.00.

The 24.00 logic suggests the new year should have started at 00.01 not on the stroke of midnight.

 

[najaB]

As for 24 hour clock, 23:59, 24:00, 00:01 does me just fine. 24.00 being the last (highest number) point in the day. The new day starts after midnight, not at midnight.

It might suit you fine, but don't expect the rest of the world to follow suit.

The way that it actually works makes sense given that the clock shows you how much time has elapsed since the day started. 00:00:00 when the day starts, 00:01:00 after a minute, up to 23:59:59 and then back to 00:00:00

 

[stadler]

It might suit you fine, but don't expect the rest of the world to follow suit.

The way that it actually works makes sense given that the clock shows you how much time has elapsed since the day started. 00:00:00 when the day starts, 00:01:00 after a minute, up to 23:59:59 and then back to 00:00:00

It is interesting how different countries around the world write their timetables. In some countries they use the even use the more bonkers method of 24:00 (00:00) / 25:00 (01:00) / 26:00 (02:00) / 27:00 (03:00) / 28:00 (04:00) right throught to the last service. I think they do it to avoid confusion between the last services of the day and the first services of the day and have a clear distinction between both. But i just think it makes it more confusing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I thinknthis is one of the reasons it's avoided, as one person's 2400 (for example) Wednesday may be some one else's 0000 (for example ) Thursday, whereas 2359 is clearly very near the end of one day/date and 0001 very near the start of a different day/date

Surely in that case you just resort to what is fact. 24:00 isn’t a real time. 00:00 is the first minute of a day.

 

[12LDA28C]

Surely in that case you just resort to what is fact. 24:00 isn’t a real time. 00:00 is the first minute of a day.

Except that on the railway, 24:00:00 is a real time, succeeded by 00:00:01.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Except that on the railway, 24:00:00 is a real time, succeeded by 00:00:01.

Well it’s not a real time. It might well be what the railway choose to use, but it’s not a real time.

 

[Krokodil]

Well it’s not a real time. It might well be what the railway choose to use, but it’s not a real time.

Some of our diagrams used to show "hh:60" for arrival times, which caused us some bemusement. This is because some timings are done in half minutes, but these are never made known to traincrew and are rounded. So 06:59:30 would be rounded up. Instead of being rounded to 07:00, the computer spat out 06:60. Where a departure time was a half minute it would be rounded down, so wasn't am issue.

 

[The exile]

Thomas Cook's Continental Timetable had an editorial comment, no doubt written by the doyen of timetable compilers J.H.Price, to the effect that midnight arrivals were always shown as 24:00 and departures as 00:00.

Which is the optimal solution. 24.00 on Tuesday being identical with 00:00 on Wednesday.

 

[WideRanger]

Well it’s not a real time. It might well be what the railway choose to use, but it’s not a real time.

Quite a brave assertion.

Time is a relative construct. In lots of cases it is defined in the way that is of most use.

 

[greatkingrat]

Well it’s not a real time. It might well be what the railway choose to use, but it’s not a real time.

The ISO8601 standard says that 00:00:00 and 24:00:00 are both acceptable ways to refer to midnight.

 

[cool110]

Some of our diagrams used to show "hh:60" for arrival times, which caused us some bemusement.

Although 23:59:60 can be a real time up to twice a year when leap seconds may be added to prevent UTC and GMT from drifting too far apart.

 

[najaB]

The ISO8601 standard says that 00:00:00 and 24:00:00 are both acceptable ways to refer to midnight.

That's a relatively recent update, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[etr221]

The ISO8601 standard says that 00:00:00 and 24:00:00 are both acceptable ways to refer to midnight.

Which is what I would expect: 24:00:00 being the end of the day, and 00:00:00 the beginning of the (following) day - if a midnight arrival is quoted as 24:00 it is the last of the day, if as 00:00 it is the first.

And to me it is perfectly sensible that post-midnight times associated with the previous day should quoted as >24:00, just counting on, so if the traffic day is considered as changing at 04:30 (or such), then times up to that be quoted as through to 28:30. It would avoid the ridiculousness of the last train being before the first one, as commonly seen on the Underground.

 

[najaB]

Which is what I would expect: 24:00:00 being the end of the day, and 00:00:00 the beginning of the (following) day - if a midnight arrival is quoted as 24:00 it is the last of the day, if as 00:00 it is the first.

Which does, however, lead to there being two ways that the same instant could be specified - 00:00:00 and 24:00:00 being the same time.

This might cause issues with automated systems performing time arithmetic.