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Midlands and North - Rail Needs Assessment report

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NotATrainspott

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In another recent thread I talked about how it might well be feasible/worthwhile to reconsider Phase 2b as a wider programme of Neubaustrecke-style new lines and major upgrades. I can definitely see the direction of travel here from this report. The idea that the government will spend all those billions on new railway tracks which can only really be used by 360km/h-capable 200-400m long high speed trains headed for London or Birmingham seems to be dead as a dodo.

I do think that the cost/benefit of heavy ECML upgrades, including that mythical 140mph upgrade, is probably worse than just building a new line connecting the curtailed end of Phase 2b East along to Doncaster for onward ECML connections. With that and a Sheffield connection in place, you won't have the problem of shoehorning a service pattern onto Phase 1 which was never meant to exist.
 
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tomuk

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What sort of upgrade are they proposing to the ECML that allows it to provide similar journey time improvements to HS2? I assume at least 140mph running and Welwyn widening what else? They mention in the report prevous cost overruns and how disruptions due to upgrades are disliked by passengers. Have they never heard of the WCRM fiasco. Throwing way an already costed, partly under construction scheme (HS2) for a vague roughly estimated upgrade seems ill thought out.
 

Sceptre

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This would be, what, the fifth broken promise for Leeds in the past 25 years? We were promised electric trains, Eurostar, a tram system, a trolleybus system after the tram was cancelled, and now HS2's eastern leg.
 

Ianno87

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This would be, what, the fifth broken promise for Leeds in the past 25 years? We were promised electric trains, Eurostar, a tram system, a trolleybus system after the tram was cancelled, and now HS2's eastern leg.

But as @Bald Rick notes above, this report (rightly or wrongly) argues that Leeds is better off from regional improvements without HS2 than it would be from HS2 without the regional improvements.

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Random side note: This report is sn interesting input into the "what if we upgraded existing lines instead of HS2?" debate.
 

tomuk

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But as @Bald Rick notes above, this report (rightly or wrongly) argues that Leeds is better off from regional improvements without HS2 than it would be from HS2 without the regional improvements.

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Random side note: This report is sn interesting input into the "what if we upgraded existing lines instead of HS2?" debate.
But it doesn't say that. Leeds is only better off if there are regional improvements plus an undefined ECML upgrade including Welwyn.
 

Purple Orange

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By not building the full Eastern HS2 leg you, once again, have a situation where the North East is left behind. The area is re-growing post-deindustrialisation and to cut the Eastern Leg at/before Toton puts a major spanner in the works. The ECML can’t upgrade much more if the 2 tracks at Welwyn don’t become 4. Closing Welwyn North is the other option as that’d free up a couple more paths but that’s probably increasing car journeys from that area. You can’t create new and/or more frequent ECML services to more places if there’s no pressure relief. HS2 Eastern Leg is definitely needed, even if it is in a new phase 3 or 2c. The paths on HS2 are there for it and the paths for new ECML services are not there.

The report states an upgraded ECML could enable 144 min journeys to London from Newcastle. It’s 140 mins via HS2 eastern branch. What makes you think that the NIC is wrong?
 

Ianno87

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But it doesn't say that. Leeds is only better off if there are regional improvements plus an undefined ECML upgrade including Welwyn.

Which, if true, gives more benefits than with HS2. I do admit to being skeptical about what "ECML upgrade" actually means in terms of scope and benefits.
 

Bald Rick

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Which, if true, gives more benefits than with HS2. I do admit to being skeptical about what "ECML upgrade" actually means in terms of scope and benefits.

Me too!

140mph is a non trivial exercise on any conventional line, let alone the ECML, as noted elsewhere on these pages. Similarly Welwyn doesn’t give you much, or indeed anything, without upgrades elsewhere.
 

LittleAH

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The report states an upgraded ECML could enable 144 min journeys to London from Newcastle. It’s 140 mins via HS2 eastern branch. What makes you think that the NIC is wrong?

But what about the better inter-connectivity and quicker journey times to the midlands?
 

Purple Orange

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But what about the better inter-connectivity and quicker journey times to the midlands?

To be replaced by better inter-connectivity and quicker journey times to Manchester & Liverpool. Which is better for the north east, or is it 50:50? The fundamental choice is build HS2 eastern branch or NPR (partially new line) & ECML upgrades.
 

HST43257

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The report states an upgraded ECML could enable 144 min journeys to London from Newcastle. It’s 140 mins via HS2 eastern branch. What makes you think that the NIC is wrong?
This isn’t about speed. This is about capacity and reliability.
 

LittleAH

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To be replaced by better inter-connectivity and quicker journey times to Manchester & Liverpool. Which is better for the north east, or is it 50:50? The fundamental choice is build HS2 eastern branch or NPR (partially new line) & ECML upgrades.

How is that then beneficial for those in the East Mids, South Yorks etc. There is no fundamental choice, we're currently in a world where there is effectively negative interest on borrowing, so now is actually the time to properly commit to infrastructure projects rather than playing regions off against one another.
 

matacaster

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How is that then beneficial for those in the East Mids, South Yorks etc. There is no fundamental choice, we're currently in a world where there is effectively negative interest on borrowing, so now is actually the time to properly commit to infrastructure projects rather than playing regions off against one another.
A particular gripe of mine is the poor current journey time from huddersfield / Leeds / Bradford to Birmingham / Nottingham / Sheffield. How is this being addressed?
 

LittleAH

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A particular gripe of mine is the poor current journey time from huddersfield / Leeds / Bradford to Birmingham / Nottingham / Sheffield. How is this being addressed?

It's not and from a quick read through of that report, West & South Yorkshire to Birmingham isn't regarded as a strategic route. Completely short-sighted.
 

ALEMASTER

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reaction from the Sheffield City Region Mayor https://sheffieldcityregion.org.uk/mayor-responds-to-the-national-infrastructure-commission-report/

The National Infrastructure Commission has today (15 December) published the final report of its Rail Needs Assessment for the Midlands and the North. In response to this report Dan Jarvis, Mayor of the Sheffield City Region, said:

“The National Infrastructure Commission (NIC) report presents a short-sighted and deeply flawed set of options which risk undermining any contribution HS2 could make towards levelling up. The government now has a choice, and they must not turn their back on us again. Any option which leads to a significant delay in the renewal of our appallingly neglected infrastructure would leave South Yorkshire and other areas out in the cold, just when we need support more than ever.

“There were arguments for and against HS2 as a whole, but it would be an absolute travesty for it to go ahead while leaving out one of the most deprived regions in the country, which has long had a deeply unfair gap in transport investment compared to other areas.

“The economic analysis underpinning the NIC report is based on flawed assumptions which bias investment towards the wealthiest parts of the country – flaws which the government recognised in its recent reform of the Green Book. That calls its findings into question. We offered to work with the NIC to make sure the report fairly reflected the needs of South Yorkshire and the North. As it is, their findings are based on a top down economic model that gives too little weight to HS2’s core justification as a way to reduce the profound inequalities between the regions of the UK.

“My priority for South Yorkshire is first and foremost to fix our unacceptably decrepit local transport infrastructure and strengthen connections within the North. But the cancellation or delay of HS2 2b East would have serious knock-on effects which would undermine Northern Powerhouse Rail, especially the Sheffield to Leeds leg that matters so much to South Yorkshire.

“Any plan should start with a guarantee those local projects can be built in full and without delay. The report presents them as competing with HS2 for investment – rather than recognising them as the other side of the same coin, with both essential to deliver the Government’s levelling up agenda.

“The government’s commitment to levelling up is already deeply in question following the recent Spending Review. An HS2 network which bypasses South Yorkshire would be a kick in the teeth: once again, the interests of our region would be put last by Westminster.

“The government has a choice to make. We need them to look to the long term, and give South Yorkshire the levelling up of our transport which they have promised and which our people deserve.”
 

Bald Rick

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Having now read the report, it seems to be a decent piece of work, as one would expect. A few mistakes here and there (some ‘existing’ journey times are wrong, notably London - Newcastle shown as 3h13 compared to a typical 2h50, more of which later), it clearly there has been some heavy lifting in the analysis.

It all seems quite sensible. If you’d said to Northern / Midland political leaders 5 years ago that there would be a recommendation to spend a minimum of £44bn, and up to £90bn on new and upgraded railways, in addition to HS2 Phases 1 + 2a, they would have bitten your hand off, reattached it, and bitten it off again. It’s far, far more than has been spent in ‘the south’. What’s happened in the interim is that the various political leaders have got their crayons out and asked for lots of ‘stuff’, without limit and without challenge. And now is the time that the limit appears, and thus the challenge has to come, backed with decent analysis.

From what I can make out of the report, it firmly backs the sensible elements of the Midland Rail hub proposals, the Transpennine upgrade (with electrification Manchester to York), and HS2 into Manchester. It also makes it clear that a major upgrade including new Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds is worthwhile, along with various other upgrades around the region. There is clearly potential to do some ‘pick and mix’ to some extent.

I quite like the idea of HS2 to, lets say, Kegworth. The two bits of HS2 that didn’t sit comfortably with me were the Toton Parkway and how it dealt with Sheffield. The former because it was a compromise that didn’t really suit any of the East Mids, except for those with property in the immediate vicinity and those who were willing to drive to Toton on their way out of the region. This proposal puts central Nottingham about an hour from London and half that from Birmingham. A definite improvement over Toton in my view, both in terms of journey time and attractiveness to inbound passengers (and, in my view, the ability to relieve the MML).

The ECML upgrade suggestion is perplexing. From the journey times it seems to suggests that most of the gain is north of Doncaster. As noted above the existing Newcastle journey times quoted are wrong, very - the best ‘clean’ time is 2h46 I think. Digging out the BR archives (British Rail, or Bald Rick, you decide ;)) I find that going to 140mph on the ECML was only possible on certain sections, and some of those needed major civils to make it so (notably Huntingdon to Peterborough). Even then, at best there is 4 minutes saving south of Doncaster and another 2 1/2 mins from Doncaster to Darlington. There’s another 5 minutes if you don’t stop the fastest trains at Darlington (which has by far the best business case, sorry @DarloRich). Then a couple more for better acceleration of the Azumas compared to the current timings, and a half minute from the new Kings Cross. Then you could just squeak under 2h30. So the 2h25 suggested seems a stretch, unless something is done with the Engineering allowances, removing the York call, or dare I say, ATO.

The Transpennine proposals make it clear what the direction of travel is there, so no need to have my tuppence worth there. Needless to say, it will be interesting to see what Yorkshire thinks about serving Bradford.

Final point - to any political leaders from the North and Midlands reading. This looks like the start of a process for enabling you to decide which toys you want from the toy shop for your Christmas list. You can’t have them all. If you can’t decide, your Parents will decide for you, and please don’t blame them if you’re disappointed.


we're currently in a world where there is effectively negative interest on borrowing, so now is actually the time to properly commit to infrastructure projects rather than playing regions off against one another.

We might be in a world of low interest rates now, but it won’t last forever. And then those debts will attract higher interest, which we may not be able to pay back.
 

Llandudno

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Yep, Leeds to Birmingham only one Cross-Country train per hour, operated in the main by an overcrowded 5 car Voyager, with exorbitant fares to try and surpress demand, no wonder the M1/M42 is so heavily congested.
 

HSTEd

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Yep, Leeds to Birmingham only one Cross-Country train per hour, operated in the main by an overcrowded 5 car Voyager, with exorbitant fares to try and surpress demand, no wonder the M1/M42 is so heavily congested.

Well if a Transpennine HSL actually happens Leeds-Birmingham traffic would simply divert via Manchester.
Little reason to build a line between Nottingham and Leeds for that.
 

CdBrux

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Final point - to any political leaders from the North and Midlands reading. This looks like the start of a process for enabling you to decide which toys you want from the toy shop for your Christmas list. You can’t have them all. If you can’t decide, your Parents will decide for you, and please don’t blame them if you’re disappointed.

I have to read the report and in particular what it says about linking Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds and other large towns in that corridor, and about improving more local services. However the answer to the point above is clear, the vast majority of the local political leaders will lay 'absolutely everything' on the table and blame the government and southerners for anything less as 'doing down' their area / the north. They have no political reason to do much less. Central government knows making a decision will heighten that accusation so are reluctant to do so, hence the risk little is decided and actually done
 

LittleAH

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We might be in a world of low interest rates now, but it won’t last forever. And then those debts will attract higher interest, which we may not be able to pay back.
Which is why you do it now, when there is effectively a negative interest rate. Let's also not forget that national/HMG finances aren't like household ones. There's literally no reason not to invest now in your gold standard projects.
 

tbtc

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Random side note: This report is sn interesting input into the "what if we upgraded existing lines instead of HS2?" debate.

This does feel a bit like...

ENTHUSIASTS: "stop spending so much money on HS2 and focus on regional connectivity instead"
GOVERNMENT: "suggests cutting back on HS2 promises and allowing regions to spend the money on short/middle distance connections instead"
ENTHUSIASTS: "BOOOOO"

...or...

ENTHUSIASTS: "the station at Toton would be a disaster, awkwardly placed half way between Nottingham and Derby so that it doesn't actually serve either centre - nobody wants a tram journey so long that there'll be virtually no improvement on centre to centre journey times"
GOVERNMENT: "suggests stopping the HS2 line south of the Trent, so that fast HS2 services can continue into central Nottingham/ Derby"
ENTHUSIASTS: "BOOOOO"

(yes, I'm simplifying more than a little, I know, but this could be genuinely read as a Government that has read the room and is offering alternatives to the much criticised eastern leg of HS2 - not saying I agree with all of it but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have a conversation about the opportunity cost of all that spending)
 

Bald Rick

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Which is why you do it now, when there is effectively a negative interest rate.

As I said, interest rates change. When government borrows on the bond markets, it rarely fixes for the long term. When it does, rates are higher.

Also, even borrowing at zero rates is not a good use of money if you are spending it on something not worthwhile.
 

tomuk

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ENTHUSIASTS: "BOOOOO"
Its not just BOOOOO from enthusiast it is also BOOOOO from lots of local representatives, MPs, Mayors, Transport Authorities.

The report says

To ensure the Plan endures the government should build consensus with local stakeholders.

Well that has started well.
 

CdBrux

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Which is why you do it now, when there is effectively a negative interest rate. Let's also not forget that national/HMG finances aren't like household ones. There's literally no reason not to invest now in your gold standard projects.

Do what now?

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Its not just BOOOOO from enthusiast it is also BOOOOO from lots of local representatives, MPs, Mayors, Transport Authorities.

The report says



Well that has started well.


If building consensus with local [Midland and north] leaders is going to have a remote chance to end well it must be possible. This I doubt.
 

Purple Orange

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If building consensus with local [Midland and north] leaders is going to have a remote chance to end well it must be possible. This I doubt.

Consensus will never come about. They might all agree on high level aspirations such as building HS2 and NPR, but just like many on this forum, they will disagree on the detail meaning they are not actually asking for the same thing.

If the eastern branch is cancelled but Liverpool gets a ‘partially new’ line, does Liverpool really care that Leeds didn’t get a new dedicated HS2 line?

If Leeds gets the eastern branch and Liverpool gets nothing, does Leeds care?

Decisions need to be made and if I was in to gambling, I’d say it’ll be the Regional +25% option that has the most likely chance of being taken forward. Long-distance +25% a close second. Upgrades only in 3rd and the +50% options being last.
 

edwin_m

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A particular gripe of mine is the poor current journey time from huddersfield / Leeds / Bradford to Birmingham / Nottingham / Sheffield. How is this being addressed?
Birmingham journeys will be quicker via Manchester because of HS2 between Manchester and Birmingham and the various Transpennine improvements under various options.

Leeds to Sheffield gets a section of new line under "Prioritising Regional Links +50%" and various upgrades under other options.

All the combinations you suggest will benefit from at one or both of those with the possible exception of Huddersfield-Sheffield.
 

Bald Rick

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Birmingham journeys will be quicker via Manchester because of HS2 between Manchester and Birmingham and the various Transpennine improvements under various options.

Indeed - about 75 minutes Birmigham to Leeds via Manchester, assuming a through service is provided (which seems probable)
 

Watershed

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Indeed - about 75 minutes Birmigham to Leeds via Manchester, assuming a through service is provided (which seems probable)
Only one small problem with that - plenty of people want to travel between Birmingham and Manchester, and Manchester and Leeds. So then you end up with the Birmingham-Leeds (and wider SW-NE) flow as well as the first two flows, all on the same train.

This is exactly the kind of issue that has resulted in XC's capacity crunch - failing to segregate short and long distance flows onto different services. It might be fine to begin with if you have 400m trains, but in the long term it's not a sustainable solution. This is just an expensive way of kicking the can down the road.

It also means that you lose a lot of the journey time improvements on the Birmingham to Leeds (and wider SW-NE) corridor that HS2 was supposed to help fix. 75 minutes is over 50% longer than the 49 minute journey time people were promised, and changes Leeds from being in commutable (and day-trip) distance of Birmingham, to being beyond what most people would reasonably consider.

It's easy to say "there is no money" but recent months have proven that money in effect does grow on trees when there is the political will for it to exist. The harsh truth is that there aren't enough votes in HS2's Eastern leg for it to matter.
 
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