Midland Mainline London to Machester when did services cease?

[flypie]

When was the Midland Mainline cut back from Manchester to Derby?

Is there anywhere with timetables for express journeys via the route from London to Manchester?

Where services ever run via it from London to Liverpool?

Has there been any plans to reinstate the closed 14 miles of track?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BjSKo8uI9OY/VIG3wOUi5SI/AAAAAAAAAu8/Gn6USPgmphY/s1600/liv-man%2B2%2Bderby.jpg

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When was the Midland Mainline cut back from Manchester to Derby?
Is there anywhere with timetables for express journeys via the route from London to Manchester?
Where services ever run via it from London to Liverpool?
Has there been any plans to reinstate the closed 14 miles of track?

The central section through Millers Dale closed in 1967 after the WCML was electrified.
In its final years the journey time St Pancras-Manchester Central was just under 4 hours with mostly 3 stops (Leicester, Derby, Millers Dale).
The Midland Pullman was a bit faster and called at Cheadle Heath for Stockport.
The odd service bypassed Derby using the Chaddesden loop.
The traditional frequency was 2-hourly, but while the WCML was being electrified it was hourly (with very few services to Euston).

At one time there used to be direct services to Liverpool Central using the Stockport-Glazebrook line, and others were portions worked from Manchester Central.
There was a sleeper too.

There are some timetables here: http://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=2&section_id=-1

 

[edwin_m]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index.shtml

This page about Bakewell includes some details of the line in general and a sample timetable. The site has similar pages on the other stations.

 

[Ash Bridge]

When was the Midland Mainline cut back from Manchester to Derby?

Is there anywhere with timetables for express journeys via the route from London to Manchester?

Where services ever run via it from London to Liverpool?

Has there been any plans to reinstate the closed 14 miles of track?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BjSKo8uI9OY/VIG3wOUi5SI/AAAAAAAAAu8/Gn6USPgmphY/s1600/liv-man%2B2%2Bderby.jpg

Deleted.

Cheadle Heath (Stockport) - London St Pancras in 2hrs 57 mins. non stop,on the Midland Pullman. Pretty good going that, certainly for the era.

 

[racyrich]

In 1914 the LTS had a through carriage to Derby on the 10.45 from Southend, attaching to the 12.15 St Pancras to Liverpool.

 

[flypie]

Deleted.

Cheadle Heath (Stockport) - London St Pancras in 2hrs 57 mins. non stop,on the Midland Pullman. Pretty good going that, certainly for the era.

That is impressive, comparable with the WCML trains of the 70s, it would seem that if not for those closed 14 miles it could take some of the pressure of the WCML will adding direct trains to Derby, Leicester for both Liverpool and Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The central section through Millers Dale closed in 1967 after the WCML was electrified.
In its final years the journey time St Pancras-Manchester Central was just under 4 hours with mostly 3 stops (Leicester, Derby, Millers Dale).
The Midland Pullman was a bit faster and called at Cheadle Heath for Stockport.
The odd service bypassed Derby using the Chaddesden loop.
The traditional frequency was 2-hourly, but while the WCML was being electrified it was hourly (with very few services to Euston).

At one time there used to be direct services to Liverpool Central using the Stockport-Glazebrook line, and others were portions worked from Manchester Central.
There was a sleeper too.

There are some timetables here: http://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=2&section_id=-1

Thanks

 

[30907]

After 1967 a limited service 2x daily operated via the Hope Valley (and IIRC Dore South Curve), serving all or nearly all Intercity stations. I think they survived till HSTs?

 

[thenorthern]

The through trains stopped on 6th of March 1967 which was the same day the the London to Manchester via Stoke-on-Trent electrification was completed. The line was completely closed from Ambergate to Buxton of course it reopened back 1973 as far as Matlock as the Derwent valley line.

I am not sure if there were any trains that ran to Liverpool along the route but I don't recall any.

Yes there were very serious proposals to re-instate the track back in 2003 which was promoted as the "Derby to Manchester Railway Project" and Derbyshire county council paid for a feasibility study into re-opening the line. I remember going to a exhibition about the proposed line at the Derby Assembly Rooms in 2003 which was run by the council. The proposals were scrapped though in 2004 if I remember correctly when it was decided that there wasn't enough demand for the line to reopen. Here is a link to the County Council pages at the time.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040821090255/http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/railproject/index.htm

I can't see the line reopening in the near future as there is already the Crewe to Derby line and the Hope Valley line linking the East Midlands to the North West.

Although not following the old route exactly there was a Manchester Piccadilly to London St Pancras train that ran in 2003 until 2004 by Midland Mainline while the West Coast Mainline was being rebuilt for the Pendolinos, the new service was marketed as Project Rio. If I remember it left Piccadilly then called at Stockport then took the Hope Valley then the Dore South Curve then the Erewash Valley line then making its first call at Leicester. There was an option of having this as an additional service in the East Midlands Franchise in 2007 although East Midlands Trains didn't take that option up.

 

[Ash Bridge]

That is impressive, comparable with the WCML trains of the 70s, it would seem that if not for those closed 14 miles it could take some of the pressure of the WCML will adding direct trains to Derby, Leicester for both Liverpool and Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think Railtrack during the late 1990s were looking at reopening the closed sections of the former Midland route through the Peak District.
Thanks

After 1967 a limited service 2x daily operated via the Hope Valley (and IIRC Dore South Curve), serving all or nearly all Intercity stations. I think they survived till HSTs?

Used it a few times around 1973/74. Operating then from Manchester Piccadilly, and I think you're correct about the frequency, but not sure it lasted until the HSTs, Class 45/46 on 6/7 mk1s?

 

[flypie]

Used it a few times around 1973/74. Operating then from Manchester Piccadilly, and I think you're correct about the frequency, but not sure it lasted until the HSTs, Class 45/46 on 6/7 mk1s?

The route would have missed out Derby?

 

[Ash Bridge]

The route would have missed out Derby?

We only travelled on it as far as Chesterfield, and changed there for Nottingham, so presumably it did go via Derby.

 

[flypie]

The current fastest route is 1:31 M->D, with a change at Sheffield and an extra stop at Stockport. The 1963 route was 1:22, I'm sure some time could be knocked of today.

 

[thenorthern]

The current fastest route is 1:31 M->D, with a change at Sheffield and an extra stop at Stockport. The 1963 route was 1:22, I'm sure some time could be knocked of today.

If the journey was a change direction at Sheffield rather than a connection I reckon that it may be cut by quite a bit of time. A direct Derby to Manchester via Stoke-on-Trent though I think would just pip the route travelling via Sheffield for speed.

Using the Dore south curve I would expect would beat both of the other routes for speed though.

 

[flypie]

If the journey was a change direction at Sheffield rather than a connection I reckon that it may be cut by quite a bit of time. A direct Derby to Manchester via Stoke-on-Trent though I think would just pip the route travelling via Sheffield for speed.

Using the Dore south curve I would expect would beat both of the other routes for speed though.

From Victoria to Derby via Bakewell is 57.4mi via Dore SOuth it is 69mi 46ch , I can't see there being a lot in it.

A Change of direction at Sheffield would knock 16 minutes off.

 

[eastwestdivide]

After 1967 a limited service 2x daily operated via the Hope Valley (and IIRC Dore South Curve), serving all or nearly all Intercity stations. I think they survived till HSTs?

By about 1981/2, the residual service was down to a pair of Sundays-only St Pancras/Manchester trains, usually a 45/1 and some Mk1s, and calling at Sheffield. Quite slow, calling at most main stations, and also subject to Sunday diversions via all sorts of interesting routes, including Woodhead and/or various Manchester suburbs. I caught it a few times between Leicester and Manchester.
Should I try and look up some old timetables?

 

[yorksrob]

The through trains stopped on 6th of March 1967 which was the same day the the London to Manchester via Stoke-on-Trent electrification was completed. The line was completely closed from Ambergate to Buxton of course it reopened back 1973 as far as Matlock as the Derwent valley line.

I am not sure if there were any trains that ran to Liverpool along the route but I don't recall any.

Yes there were very serious proposals to re-instate the track back in 2003 which was promoted as the "Derby to Manchester Railway Project" and Derbyshire county council paid for a feasibility study into re-opening the line. I remember going to a exhibition about the proposed line at the Derby Assembly Rooms in 2003 which was run by the council. The proposals were scrapped though in 2004 if I remember correctly when it was decided that there wasn't enough demand for the line to reopen. Here is a link to the County Council pages at the time.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040821090255/http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/railproject/index.htm

I can't see the line reopening in the near future as there is already the Crewe to Derby line and the Hope Valley line linking the East Midlands to the North West.

Although not following the old route exactly there was a Manchester Piccadilly to London St Pancras train that ran in 2003 until 2004 by Midland Mainline while the West Coast Mainline was being rebuilt for the Pendolinos, the new service was marketed as Project Rio. If I remember it left Piccadilly then called at Stockport then took the Hope Valley then the Dore South Curve then the Erewash Valley line then making its first call at Leicester. There was an option of having this as an additional service in the East Midlands Franchise in 2007 although East Midlands Trains didn't take that option up.

As usual, it was the inability to think outside of silos that scuppered this very sensible plan.

The local Council were concerned with Iocal travel opportunities, but it was not within their remit to consider the capacity of the Hope Valley route, or the ability to speed up longer distance regional journeys or how the route through Bakewell could potentially improve these.

Fast forward ten years and we have Network Rail considering these other issues, but obviously it isn't within their remit to consider local journey benefits in the Peak District. Another opportunity lost.

It's not rocket science, but as ever, our country is simply incapable of thinking outside of the box.

 

[Ash Bridge]

As usual, it was the inability to think outside of silos that scuppered this very sensible plan.

The local Council were concerned with Iocal travel opportunities, but it was not within their remit to consider the capacity of the Hope Valley route, or the ability to speed up longer distance regional journeys or how the route through Bakewell could potentially improve these.

Fast forward ten years and we have Network Rail considering these other issues, but obviously it isn't within their remit to consider local journey benefits in the Peak District. Another opportunity lost.

It's not rocket science, but as ever, our country is simply incapable of thinking outside of the box.

Yep, joined up or forward thinking, not a UK speciality sadly.

 

[flypie]

Yep, joined up or forward thinking, not a UK speciality sadly.

To the people who control the system redundancy is a dirty word, to anyone with any engineering experience it is a necessity for any complex system to be reliable.

The system had been rejiged to put London at the centre at the expense of all other intercity links.

 

[thenorthern]

Derby to Manchester would have been a nice route to have direct again but I can't see it happening any time soon via Matlock as currently there is the effectively half hourly fast Manchester to Sheffield and connecting onto the effectively quarter hourly Sheffield to Derby and the Pent-hourly (is that a word?) Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent and then hourly Stoke-on-Trent to Derby trains combined effectively meaning Manchester to Derby with connections is 3 trains per hour.

Nottingham City Council one proposed a fast Nottingham-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly train which if instead ran Nottingham-Derby-Chesterfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly or Nottingham - Derby - Uttoxeter- Stoke-on-Trent - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly would be the best option I think.

 

[flypie]

Derby to Manchester would have been a nice route to have direct again but I can't see it happening any time soon via Matlock as currently there is the effectively half hourly fast Manchester to Sheffield and connecting onto the effectively quarter hourly Sheffield to Derby and the Pent-hourly (is that a word?) Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent and then hourly Stoke-on-Trent to Derby trains combined effectively meaning Manchester to Derby with connections is 3 trains per hour.

Nottingham City Council one proposed a fast Nottingham-Alfreton-Chesterfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly train which if instead ran Nottingham-Derby-Chesterfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly or Nottingham - Derby - Uttoxeter- Stoke-on-Trent - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly would be the best option I think.

A Liverpool->Manc->Derby->Leicester down to London would provide a good line between North West and East Midlands. Driving yet another economic "powerhouse"

 

[thenorthern]

A Liverpool->Manc->Derby->Leicester down to London would provide a good line between North West and East Midlands. Driving yet another economic "powerhouse"

Not really, the quickest Manchester to Leicester train is the morning Virgin Train to Nuneaton then onto the CrossCountry train to Leicester taking less than 2 hours.

Much of the Midland Main Line destinations as well aren't really that big, Derby and Leicester are the only big ones I can think of.

 

[flypie]

Not really, the quickest Manchester to Leicester train is the morning Virgin Train to Nuneaton then onto the CrossCountry train to Leicester taking less than 2 hours.

Much of the Midland Main Line destinations as well aren't really that big, Derby and Leicester are the only big ones I can think of.

There are no direct Man-> Nuneaton trains, fastest to Leicester is 2:02 with change at Sheffield.

 

[thenorthern]

There are no direct Man-> Nuneaton trains, fastest to Leicester is 2:02 with change at Sheffield.

There are 3 Virgin Trains in the morning but after that there aren't any.

 

[flypie]

There are 3 Virgin Trains in the morning but after that there aren't any.

5:05 5:55 & 7:35 all about 1:52 The 5:55 arrives at Nuneaton ay 7:05, I can image nothing worse than being in Nuneaton at that time.

 

[thenorthern]

5:05 5:55 & 7:35 all about 1:52 The 5:55 arrives at Nuneaton ay 7:05, I can image nothing worse than being in Nuneaton at that time.

Nuneaton isn't too bad, there are worse areas than Nuneaton but I may be have a slight bias with Nuneaton.

Back on the subject though there used to be the line through Ashbourne to Buxton as well which closed in 1954, did that ever run through to Manchester?

 

[gazthomas]

I travelled during Project Rio - almost the only one on the train!

 

[Ash Bridge]

I travelled during Project Rio - almost the only one on the train!

Yes, me too. June 2004, the HSTs were managing St. Pancras -Stockport in a tad under 3hrs. If I remember correctly.

 

[Senex]

Yes, me too. June 2004, the HSTs were managing St. Pancras -Stockport in a tad under 3hrs. If I remember correctly.

And they did that despite being semi-fasts to Leicester and then having lousy paths through the Erewash Valley and then onwards from Dore West Jn (i.e. lots of patching time in the schedules).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And they did that despite being semi-fasts to Leicester and then having lousy paths through the Erewash Valley and then onwards from Dore West Jn (i.e. lots of patching time in the schedules).

For "patching" read "pathing" - sorry (blame my iPad).

 

[thenorthern]

Project Rio as it was in 2003 would never work as a regular service although if it was put in modified it may work.

The calling pattern of Manchester Piccadilly Stockport, Leicester, Market Harbrough, Kettering, Wellingborough, Luton and London St Pancres was never going to work as it omits Loughbrough and Chesterfield despite running though both of them non-stop.

Also missing out Derby for every train bar one iirc was missing out on a huge market. If project rio was to run today I would run it Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester and London St Pancres which should get a fair few passengers.

Project Rio was designed to run as emergency service while the lines were closed and I think Midland Mainline had all cost reimbursed by the SRA while they ran it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The through trains stopped on 6th of March 1967 which was the same day the the London to Manchester via Stoke-on-Trent electrification was completed. The line was completely closed from Ambergate to Buxton of course it reopened back 1973 as far as Matlock as the Derwent valley line.

I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. The line never closed between Ambergate and Matlock although it was reduced to a single track route. The only thing that closed on the route was Matlock Bath station in 1967 but that reopened in 1972.

The Derwent Valley Line branding is a much more recent thing than you suggest and I'm guessing was only introduced in the last ten years.

If my memory serves me correctly 150001 and 150002 initially ran on the Matlock branch replacing the class 120 DMU's.