Midland Mainline Capacity

[Class377/5]

Just point out the 'freight' loop just north of West Hampstead is there to assist in disruption when turning trains at West Hampstead. Removing it may help you have extra capacity but at the cost making the service less robust.

 

[21C101]

Just point out the 'freight' loop just north of West Hampstead is there to assist in disruption when turning trains at West Hampstead. Removing it may help you have extra capacity but at the cost making the service less robust.

I was surprised they didn't turn the down slow into a proper turnback siding with the freight loop becoming the down slow during the recent changes.

I've never seen a train on that freight loop or any disturbance to the rust.

 

[louis97]

Radlett and Harpenden are both used in both directions, 2 trains per hour in each direction go over at Radlett (generally 1Txx), and 2 trains per hour in each direction going over at Harpenden (generally 2Txx). The trains that crossover at Harpenden go over one after another, around 5 minutes between them. If one is late at Harpenden it can and does have knock on effects onto both TL and EMT services.

Flashing yellows on the MML is very limited, UF>US at West Hampstead South, US>UF at Radlett Junction and DF>DS at Bedford South.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was surprised they didn't turn the down slow into a proper turnback siding with the freight loop becoming the down slow during the recent changes.

I've never seen a train on that freight loop or any disturbance to the rust.

It was basically a holding point for loco hauled / DMU stock into the old Cricklewood depot. Agreed - very little use - but it was disconnected for a long time and then put back into use.

 

[Class377/5]

I was surprised they didn't turn the down slow into a proper turnback siding with the freight loop becoming the down slow during the recent changes.

I've never seen a train on that freight loop or any disturbance to the rust.

Its been used. I've seen it with my own eyes. Tho it did break the points!

 

[John Webb]

......Southbound is more tricky as is St Albans where there is no bay and terminating trains can and do hold up following fasts that have crossed to the slows at Radlett.........

I don't understand this comment, as there is the turn-back siding between the up and down slows at the north end of St Albans City station. This is a considerable improvement on the pre-electrification layout where terminating trains had to be held in one or other of the slow line platforms before returning towards London.

 

[AM9]

I don't understand this comment, as there is the turn-back siding between the up and down slows at the north end of St Albans City station. This is a considerable improvement on the pre-electrification layout where terminating trains had to be held in one or other of the slow line platforms before returning towards London.

I think that the problem is during the peaks when the fasts almost catch up at SAC and the additional time taken making sure that they are empty causes the fast to be held down the line. I suppose any tidying up could be done when the unit is run back into platform 1 against the flow, but obviously all living organisms must be ejected before entering the siding.

 

[21C101]

I think that the problem is during the peaks when the fasts almost catch up at SAC and the additional time taken making sure that they are empty causes the fast to be held down the line. I suppose any tidying up could be done when the unit is run back into platform 1 against the flow, but obviously all living organisms must be ejected before entering the siding.

Correct, except that they often actually do catch them up while the terminator are being put to bed on the down slow and you spend 5 minutes at a red admiring the golf course.

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct, except that they often actually do catch them up while the terminator are being put to bed on the down slow and you spend 5 minutes at a red admiring the golf course.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but in 11 years of commuting from/to St Albans, I have been held behind a terminator on the DS less than 10 times, and almost always this is during major disruption.

 

[21C101]

Perhaps I'm lucky, but in 11 years of commuting from/to St Albans, I have been held behind a terminator on the DS less than 10 times, and almost always this is during major disruption.

I use services that normally run fast line to/ from Bedford south Junction so we only get shunted over to the slows at Radlett when something is amiss, more often than not a late running EMT catching us up. Going over at Radlett means slow trundle behind stoppers in front and 10-15 minute late arrival.

If you are on one that stops at all stns from St A northwards there is not much difference but the ones that run fast line to Bedford miss out Luton A, Leagrave and Harlington and on those its a big difference if you go onto the slows as you will always catch one up.

Also the st Albans and all stns to Bedford run 5 minutes behind the peak only fasts so I guess that extra 5 mins gives more time for the terminators to clear the plat at St Albans.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Getting back on topic, as I understand it, there are/were plans to reinstate/provide the following over the next few years.

Crossover from Platform 3 to Up Fast at Bedford.
Redouble Kettering to Corby
Fourth track from Sharnbrook Ladder to Kettering
Reinstate the goods lines at Leicester with grade separation at Wigston
Replace fourth track from Leicester to Syston
Approach control at Radlett, Harpenden and Leagrave Ladders (thought this had been done already but others say otherwise)

Are these still going to happen?

 

[louis97]

Approach control at Radlett, Harpenden and Leagrave Ladders (thought this had been done already but others say otherwise)

This has already been done, it was only done in the places it was considered to be of most benefit - see my previous post.

 

[21C101]

This has already been done, it was only done in the places it was considered to be of most benefit - see my previous post.

It was your post that prompted me to put that. You appear to say that the only one done was the up slow to up fast at Radlett with Harpenden and Leagrave not mentioned?


(Up fast to Up slow at West Hampstead has always been 50mph with approach control.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some commendable levels of detail here - anyone might think there were professional railway staff on board.

In passing - St Albans has the heaviest passenger flows - 6 million+ per year (and a premium charge for it) - not that one is biased , but a fast peak Luton - SAC - Thameslink core would be very welcome and a good use of resources (sorry Harpendon !)

 

[asylumxl]

Some commendable levels of detail here - anyone might think there were professional railway staff on board.

In passing - St Albans has the heaviest passenger flows - 6 million+ per year (and a premium charge for it) - not that one is biased , but a fast peak Luton - SAC - Thameslink core would be very welcome and a good use of resources (sorry Harpendon !)

I have said similar to this on here before. I feel a staggered peak service would go down well in the long run. It has to be better than just stopping at all the major stations.

 

[21C101]

I have said similar to this on here before. I feel a staggered peak service would go down well in the long run. It has to be better than just stopping at all the major stations.

Effectively there is a staggered peak service.

The every 15 mins Bedford - Flitwick or Leagrave - Luton - Harpenden - St Albans - London trains that run in the peaks are timed to arrive at St Albans just after (up)/before(down) the every 15 mins trains that go all Stns from/to Bedford to St Albans. As they only call at four stations before/after St Albans they have room for people at Harpenden/St Albans, whereas the ones that come down all stations from Bedford are fuller.

St Albans also has the option of the Semi Fasts which only call at Radlett, Elstree & west Hampstead and are usually pretty empty prior to arriving at St Albans from the north.

Its massively better for Harp & St albans pax than the service pattern prior to the 2005 blockade, in those days virtually no two trains had the same stopping pattern and a lot of the trains ran fast to Luton Airport, Luton or even Leagrave from London. Although St Albans is the busiest station, Bedford, Flitwick, Leagrave, Luton, Luton A & Harpenden have over twice as many pax between them and very few EMT trains stop south of Wellingborough in the peak flow directions.

When Wixams (aka Bedford Parkway) station opens, just off the A421 Bedford bypass it will also have an effect.

Annual Pax from the Thameslink Stns according to Wikipedia are:

Kentish Town 1,695,000
West Hampstead 2,817,000
Cricklewood 1,080,000
Hendon 983,000
Mill Hill 2,040,000
Elstree 3,234,000
Radlett 1,110.000
St Albans 6,888,000
Harpenden 2,095,000
Luton Airport 2,508,000
Luton 3,444,000
Leagrave 1,757,000
Harlington 320,000
Flitwick 1,319,000
Bedford 3,314,000

With the exception of Harlington all the stations are among the most well used on the network.

To my mind the logical thing to do would be to increase the quieter Midland main line trains (eg the Corby ones) from four/five to nine/ten cars and introduce a stop at St Albans on them. Not so easy though when it's different franchises.

 

[louis97]

It was your post that prompted me to put that. You appear to say that the only one done was the up slow to up fast at Radlett with Harpenden and Leagrave not mentioned?

Indeed that is correct. This being the only one that was the most benefit, given the trains that crossover at Radlett don't stop at the station.

Trains generally calls at Harpenden before and after using the crossover, and with Leagrave I presume that due to its limited use, similar to Flitwick it was considered to not be of great benefit.

If anything, the best way to solve the issue of capacity with these junctions is to make them double ladder junctions and increasing their speed, approach control with flashing yellow will help but no where near as much as making them double ladder junctions.

 

[Class377/5]

Could be achievable to restore intercity services at St Albans once electric traction is used.

 

[mr_jrt]

I've often wondered about making better use of those goods lines on the MML by introducing a new local service on them, enabling the current slow (Thameslink) lines to run fast through them, in effect removing Thameslink services from the fast lines by making the slow lines fast. If that makes sense.

Primary issues are a) what to do at the southern end, at West Hampstead, and b) at the northern end, at Hendon/Mill Hill.

My preference for the southern end is a new tunnel to Gospel Oak, thence extending the Goblin services up the MML to provide the local service. Interchange with the Northern line at Belsize Park on underground platforms on the link, and with Thameslink at West Hampstead. On the northern end, the minimal case is terminating at Hendon. The slightly better case is extending the goods lines to new platforms on the west side of Mill Hill Broadway. The ideal case is pushing on from there, new tunnels at Elstree, and continuing up to St Albans, which would probably have to move south to accommodate the additional platforms. Net result of that being that Thameslink would be able to run fast from the northern local terminus (Mill Hill Broadway/Borehamwood & Elstree/Radlett/St Albans/etc) to West Hampstead. Running fast means more capacity, and a uniform service pattern on a two-track line means everything could stop at West Hampstead and the northern local terminus. The fast lines would then be free from more intercity services, and the slow lines, with less stops, are then also more suitable for running some of the freight from the Radlett depot over.

...additionally, by separating the local service from Thameslink, you can justify more stations on the route. I can think of several obvious ones off the top of my head, namely Grahame Park, Napsbury, a new station between Cricklewood and West Hampstead, and you'd be able to serve Cricklewood, Hendon and the new Brent Cross quite justifiably.

 

[Abpj17]

...additionally, by separating the local service from Thameslink, you can justify more stations on the route. I can think of several obvious ones off the top of my head, namely Grahame Park, Napsbury, a new station between Cricklewood and West Hampstead, and you'd be able to serve Cricklewood, Hendon and the new Brent Cross quite justifiably.

It's called the Northern line? (sorry, I know it's a little different lol)

The haul for the three Luton stations is pretty impressive:
Luton Airport 2,508,000
Luton 3,444,000
Leagrave 1,757,000

A nice (albeit I know biased) service would be one that did the three Luton stations then fast into London.

 

[21C101]

It's called the Northern line? (sorry, I know it's a little different lol)

The haul for the three Luton stations is pretty impressive:
Luton Airport 2,508,000
Luton 3,444,000
Leagrave 1,757,000

A nice (albeit I know biased) service would be one that did the three Luton stations then fast into London.

Those figures are distorted quite a bit by a lot of Intra Urban short distance traffic wholly within luton, especially Leagrave. The other two already get non stop trains to St Pancras courtesy EMT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed that is correct. This being the only one that was the most benefit, given the trains that crossover at Radlett don't stop at the station.

Trains generally calls at Harpenden before and after using the crossover, and with Leagrave I presume that due to its limited use, similar to Flitwick it was considered to not be of great benefit.

If anything, the best way to solve the issue of capacity with these junctions is to make them double ladder junctions and increasing their speed, approach control with flashing yellow will help but no where near as much as making them double ladder junctions.

There was never any plan to do Flitwick, but when Radlett was done, similar green metal portable equipment rooms appeared at the same time at Harpenden and Leagrave, so I assumed some lines were done there. There are trains that are scheduled to cross from dn fast to dn slow at both Harpenden and Leagrave without calling at the station and the sooner they are clear the sooner the IC125 behind them can open the throttle again.

Also a bit surprised that down fast to down slow at Radlett wasn't done for the same reason. I thought it had been as that movement is common in the peaks.

 

[Abpj17]

Those figures are distorted quite a bit by a lot of Intra Urban short distance traffic wholly within luton, especially Leagrave. The other two already get non stop trains to St Pancras courtesy EMT.

Still impressive; are there numbers that break it down further? - would be interesting to see; there isn't that much traffic to parkway locally and a reasonable number of leagrave have to change at Luton.

A lot of commuters travel beyond St P too - so the EMT trains just mean a change at St P for underground or another train for some.

 

[21C101]

Still impressive; are there numbers that break it down further? - would be interesting to see; there isn't that much traffic to parkway locally and a reasonable number of leagrave have to change at Luton.

A lot of commuters travel beyond St P too - so the EMT trains just mean a change at St P for underground or another train for some.

Prior to 2005 there was a daily up and down service that was fast to Leagrave and several evening peak services that were fast to Luton A, Luton.

There was also a Semi Slow (17.57 off Farringdon) which called at St Albans, Luton Airport, Leagrave, Harlington, Flitwick, Bedford.

I think in the 2005 recast they decided that running fast through St Albans and Harpenden was unacceptable. Although somewhat inexplicably the 17.12 off Farringdon now calls at Luton Airport but not Harpenden despite crossing from fast to slow there.

 

[Senex]

There are trains that are scheduled to cross from dn fast to dn slow at both Harpenden and Leagrave without calling at the station and the sooner they are clear the sooner the IC125 behind them can open the throttle again.

Not just the HST behind them. In a good many years of regular use of the MML I have frequent memories of up HSTs being severely slowed or actually brought to a stand north of Harpenden so that a down Thameslink could make its slow and stately approach to and run through the junction to the down slow. I often wondered what was the point of all those 40 mph crossovers when the signalling was so restrictive. (Even worse was the 50 mph Bedford South Jn, used by HSTs going into Bedford station, before that got flashing yellows. And I've never understood why there are no flashing yellows for the up fast to down/up slow move at Bedford North made by all MML trains calling at the station.)

 

[AM9]

It's called the Northern line? (sorry, I know it's a little different lol)

The haul for the three Luton stations is pretty impressive:
Luton Airport 2,508,000
Luton 3,444,000
Leagrave 1,757,000

A nice (albeit I know biased) service would be one that did the three Luton stations then fast into London.

If we are talking about peak capacity then the season ticket journeys for each of the two peak hours would be a better measure rather then the total traffic which would include all-day journeys generated by the airport and Luton itself as well as weekend travel.
Thus the relative figures would be:
Leagrave 403,063
Luton Town 519,512
Luton Airport Parkway 230,307

total 1,152,882

It would be a reasonable assumption that virtually all journeys would be on seasons in the peak hours and those that weren't would be similar in number to the journeys on anytime tickets.

St Albans seasons for comparison stand at 1,613,628

 

[asylumxl]

Those figures are distorted quite a bit by a lot of Intra Urban short distance traffic wholly within luton, especially Leagrave

The same is true for St Albans. There is plenty of "inter urban short distance" traffic in and out of it (St Albans to Borehamwood for example).

And I'm not sure why you think Leagrave to Luton traffic is significant enough to distort the figures. The majority of people use the Arriva bus services, which will be cheaper while being closer to home and to their final destination.

Without knowing the actual flows and their respective numbers such an argument is invalid.

 

[W230]

Flashing yellows on the MML is very limited, UF>US at West Hampstead South, US>UF at Radlett Junction and DF>DS at Bedford South.

Also DF > DS Radlett and DF > DS Harpenden but not DF > DS at Leagrave, annoyingly.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but in 11 years of commuting from/to St Albans, I have been held behind a terminator on the DS less than 10 times, and almost always this is during major disruption.

Interestingly, the Luton terminators (and SAC for one station) often end up being delayed by the fast northbound services as they are often a couple of minutes down and you end up catching up an all stations to Bedford (previously fast) on the all stations to Luton for those that cross to the slows at Radlett junction.

 

[Abpj17]

If we are talking about peak capacity then the season ticket journeys for each of the two peak hours would be a better measure rather then the total traffic which would include all-day journeys generated by the airport and Luton itself as well as weekend travel.
Thus the relative figures would be:
Leagrave 403,063
Luton Town 519,512
Luton Airport Parkway 230,307

total 1,152,882

It would be a reasonable assumption that virtually all journeys would be on seasons in the peak hours and those that weren't would be similar in number to the journeys on anytime tickets.

St Albans seasons for comparison stand at 1,613,628

Thanks. There seem to be a material number of passengers travelling back from London with season tickets outside the peak though.

 

[AM9]

Thanks. There seem to be a material number of passengers travelling back from London with season tickets outside the peak though.

My point is that this thread is all about MML capacity which is really stretched during the peak hours hence the focus on volumes of passengers on season tickets. Off peak, mostly it seems to cope.

 

[21C101]

My point is that this thread is all about MML capacity which is really stretched during the peak hours hence the focus on volumes of passengers on season tickets. Off peak, mostly it seems to cope.

Its not that stretched, thats a myth. Most days my peak hour train home passes a freight on the slows between St Albans' and Leagrave. The Southern has not had room for freight during the peaks for about a century.

There are 20 passenger trains an hour south of St Albans in the direction of peak flow over four tracks. (5 MML and 15 thameslink)

To compare:

Fenchurch St: 20 on two tracks between 17.00 & 18.00 (out of a four platform Terminus)

Marylebone: 16 on two tracks between 17.00 & 18.00

Victoria (Central): 28 on four tracks between 17.00 & 18.00