Midland Main Line improvements

[shinkansen1966]

Over the next few years, are there really going to be worthwhile improvements to the Midland Main Line ? (see p129 onwards of doc below)

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/6182_Enhancements%20Document%20Dec%202009.pdf

By 2013,
stretches of the MML will be upgraded to 125mph
London to Sheffield in two hours flat
Nottingham station and signalling given a complete makeover
London to Nottingham in 95 mins

It's about time too. When I was a lad, it took 2hrs 40 to get from Sheffield down to St Pancras and there wasn't even an hourly service. Using the East Midlands service of late, trains take about 2hr 10 to Sheffield and there's a frequent service now. No longer the 'Cinderalla' route compared with the ECML/WCML.

Of course, electrification is the way forward. Any concrete plans there?

 

[Christopher125]

Electrification hasnt been announced yet, but i think its cost/benefit is as good as any and NR shouldnt have any problems getting the loans. Just a matter of when - it might have to wait till the GWML is underway or nearing completion before a proper start can be made.

Chris

 

[mr_moo]

The contract for early stage design work for MML linespeed enhancements is out to tender at the moment. We've bid for it!

It's a huge package of work and looks like it's going to make a real improvement to the MML.

Naturally, I can't say too much due to commercial confidentiality but early design work at very least is going ahead.

 

[38Cto15E]

It looks very good if it comes off, 85mph through Mkt Harborough, wow, 100 around Wigston Nth jct, the main race track will be between Bedford and Luton but presumably still have to slow down through Ampthill Tunnels.
Also there is a foot crossing just south of these tunnels, presumably this will be one to get a footbridge.
It looks like the climb from Sharnbrook to the summit will be as fast as the train can go up the 1/119.

It will all mean a greater concentration from the drivers with all the line speed variations, if they are not on the ball it be very easy to lose a couple of minutes on the schedule.

I am not sure what work needs to be done under the bridges at leicester station, I assume work will be done there beforehand for the Felixstowe-Nuneaton line, work is going on already between Wigston and Hinckley.

 

[shinkansen1966]

If you look at the proposed speed enhancements, it will be near continous 125mph from 11 miles north of St Pancras to just south of Wellingborough. There are some 100/110 restrictions around St Albans and Bedford. After Wellingborough, it's mostly 110. I'd like to see what work needs to be carried at Market Harborough to raise the speed from 60 to 85. Liecester to Trent Jct will then be mostly 125mph. Impressive.

Yes, MML will certainly have an ECML style racetrack feel!

By completion, having a 125mph MML with a 2 hr London to Sheffield journey times really should further boost passenger numbers. East Midlands Trains would do well to promote this. Will all the improvements be in place by the December 2013 timetable change ?

I started using the MML back in the early 80s. Then it was peak-hauled services taking 2 h 55 mins from Sheffield down to the capital. Even when HSTs came along, journey times were still 2 hr 30 mins, at best.

And now look: 5 trains an hour out of St Pancras; regular interval service and end to end journey times speeded up by 15 mins or more.

Last Saturday, had caused to use one of the EM trains Meridien 222 trains. Good and comfy ride. Better than the Virgin Voyagers !!

 

[Failed Unit]

This is good news, I know we are talking about mega £ but it would be good to resolve all the conflicts in the trent junction area.

I don't know the MML working that well but would the increase speed help in some places. I know 100mph thameslink trains will still be sharing the same paths as the 125mph express'. Will this just mean they catch up quicker? A lot of problems on the route are the crossing of Thamelink trains from fast to slow because of the Up slow, down slow, up fast, down fast config (rather than up slow, up fast, down fast, down slow) config on the ECML. I wonder if some thameslink services would be stuck on the slow line as a result to avoid these time and capacity consuming moves?

 

[tbtc]

Easiest way to speed up the Sheffield service would be to run some services via Alfreton (e.g. avoiding Derby). Sheffield to Derby gets four trains an hour at the moment, Derby to London gets a couple, but a handful of "fast" services (non stop from Chesterfield to Leicester) would help without needing new track etc

 

[shinkansen1966]

I wonder if some thameslink services would be stuck on the slow line as a result to avoid these time and capacity consuming moves?

According to this Wiki article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_main_line#2007_business_plan , there will be signal improvements where Thameslink trains cross from fast to slow. I've been on the MML a couple of times where we've caught up with a slower Thameslink train. Most of the line speed improvments are between Luton and Wellingborough. North of Luton, think all Thameslink trains are on the slow lines, in any case.

 

[Failed Unit]

Easiest way to speed up the Sheffield service would be to run some services via Alfreton (e.g. avoiding Derby). Sheffield to Derby gets four trains an hour at the moment, Derby to London gets a couple, but a handful of "fast" services (non stop from Chesterfield to Leicester) would help without needing new track etc

I think that will be met with the same arguements the diverting the Nottingham - Cardiff services gets. Derby will be reduced to 1 train to London per hour.

If the Nottingham - Cardiff service gets diverted it is argued that the world will end in Derby. They will only have 3x Derby - Birmingham trains and 2x Nottingham - Deby trains, the reduction by 1 to speed up journeys to Nottingham just isn't acceptable.

I wonder if to get around this issue if splitting of services at East Midlands Parkway would help.

You could maybe have 5 trains per hour as now.
0:00 London - Corby (as now)
0:15 London, Market Haborough, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Nottingham & Derby
0:25 London, Leicester, Chesterfield, Sheffield (maybe even call at Langley Mill and Alferton?)
0:30 London - Nottingham slow (as now)
0:55 London, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield,

Doubt there are enough units to do this however.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Easiest way to speed up the Sheffield service would be to run some services via Alfreton (e.g. avoiding Derby). Sheffield to Derby gets four trains an hour at the moment, Derby to London gets a couple, but a handful of "fast" services (non stop from Chesterfield to Leicester) would help without needing new track etc

Yes, taking the Erewash Valley line, which avoids Derby and Nottingham, is the quickest way from London to Sheffield. Even now, it's just possible to get a sub 2 hr journey to Sheffield by this route. And with the bonus of Alfreton & Langley Mill being a little over 90 mins from London. There was a time when Midland Main Line offered a direct service this way. After the 125mph upgrade, a London to Sheffield via Erewash Valley train could take 1 hr 50.

Not sure if East Midlands trains will want to take advantage of this. There are limits on the numbers of trains which can leave St Pancras in the hour. If a Sheffield train goes via Erewash Valley, then Derby will loose one of its twice hourly trains. Derby won't like this.

Look what happened when the Corby service was introduced. Southbound Corby/Nottingham trains combine to give Kettering, Wellingborough and Bedford a service every 30 mins. After protests, fast trains between Nottingham and London now call at Market Harborough to provide them with a twice hourly service to London.

My guess is that the existing EMT timetable with its appealing clock face interval and easy to remember calling points for the whole of the MML will remain. But with journey times improvements for all over the coming 3 years.

 

[Wyvern]

I started using the MML back in the early 80s. Then it was peak-hauled services taking 2 h 55 mins from Sheffield down to the capital. Even when HSTs came along, journey times were still 2 hr 30 mins, at best

Since then most of the Derby/Sheffield trains have been made first stop Leicester (much to the annoyance of a friend of mine who lives at Luton)

Unless the Erewash Valley is improved will the journey time be much less than via Derby?

 

[silvermachine]

Since then most of the Derby/Sheffield trains have been made first stop Leicester (much to the annoyance of a friend of mine who lives at Luton)

Unless the Erewash Valley is improved will the journey time be much less than via Derby?

Direct up the Erewash valley line would save around 15 minutes - but I can't see it happening. EMT are keen on the half hourly intervals from Derby Sheffield and Nottingham.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Think the current EMT timetable from St Pancras to East Midlands/Sheffield works well. The stopping patterns and clock face intervals are easy to remember. And at long last, Sheffield joins the growing list of English cities with half hourly links to London. The semi fast service could do with a speed up. Only has 3 more stops and than the fast, so a timing of 2hr20 should be possible between Sheff and St Pancras.


Think Liverpool, Swansea and Bradford are only big English & Welsh cities left with hourly or less than hourly service to the capital.

Still as I said, with speed upgrade coming through in the next 3 years, it will get better. And once you have electrification in place, then the MML will euqal ECML and WCML.

 

[ashworth]

I don't think the unstaffed Langley Mill station should really be a calling point for any Sheffield to London service that could run up the Erewash Line. If the whole point of this, to the detriment of the calling at Derby, was to speed up Sheffield to London times this would rather defeat the object by slowing the service down with a Langley Mill stop.

Alfreton, however, has far more potential as a Parkway Station which it originally was. There is a large car park, which could be extended further, and the station has a very large catchment area with good road access to the M1. There is a huge urban population in the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border towns all within a 15-30 minute drive of Alfreton station.
Alfreton station, although still staffed is now a shadow of what it was in the 1970's regarding usage. In the 1970's there were trains at least every 2 hours throughout the day to London (mostly via Nottingham) and the car park was often full. Along with Nottingham Alfreton used to enjoy through trains to destinations like Carlisle, Blackpool and Glasgow. Nowadays there are only a handful of cars in the large car park.
With the Nottingham-Leeds and Norwich-Liverpool trains already calling there, the addition of an hourly service to London, better facilities, more advertising, reasonable prices etc etc, this station could be one of the busiest in the East Midlands.

 

[MCR247]

Liverpool???

 

[button_boxer]

And at long last, Sheffield joins the growing list of English cities with half hourly links to London.

Looking at it from the Sheffield end it's a bit of a joke to call it a 'half-hourly' link, given that the two trains each hour leave Sheffield within ten minutes of each other (27 and 35).

I commute between Sheffield and Derby and while there's technically four tph each way the timetable is such that it's 3 useful tph northbound and 2 south - northbound it's 11, 18, 28, 44 (so gaps of 7, 10, 16 and 27 minutes), southbound it's 23, 27, 35 and 54 (gaps of 4, 8, 19 and 29 mins).

 

[Edvid]

Liverpool???

The off-peak frequency between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston is just 1tph, despite the fact that Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham New Street now have 3tph.

 

[shinkansen1966]

The off-peak frequency between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston is just 1tph, despite the fact that Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham New Street now have 3tph.

How do Virgin train justify 3 tph to both Birmingham Manchester, but only 1 tph to Liverpool Lime Street ?

 

[Edvid]

Pathing constraints perhaps?

If you look at the proposed speed enhancements, it will be near continous 125mph from 11 miles north of St Pancras to just south of Wellingborough.

The enhancements start with the Elstree Tunnel going up to 110mph (upgraded ventilation needed I suspect), then as you say mostly 125mph until near Wellingborough (or the Nene flood plains to be exact). It's virtually all north of Greater London.

There are some 100/110 restrictions around St Albans and Bedford.

The up fast will be 125mph through Bedford. There will also be a significant stretch between Harpenden and Luton limited to 100-110mph, and a couple of 115mph stretches in Ampthill Tunnel and (I think) near Sharnbrook.

After Wellingborough, it's mostly 110. I'd like to see what work needs to be carried at Market Harborough to raise the speed from 60 to 85. Liecester to Trent Jct will then be mostly 125mph. Impressive.

No more slowing down to a ridiculous crawl through Leicester either, relatively/theoretically speaking.

 

[Deerfold]

Alfreton, however, has far more potential as a Parkway Station which it originally was. There is a large car park, which could be extended further, and the station has a very large catchment area with good road access to the M1. There is a huge urban population in the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border towns all within a 15-30 minute drive of Alfreton station.
Alfreton station, although still staffed is now a shadow of what it was in the 1970's regarding usage. In the 1970's there were trains at least every 2 hours throughout the day to London (mostly via Nottingham) and the car park was often full. Along with Nottingham Alfreton used to enjoy through trains to destinations like Carlisle, Blackpool and Glasgow. Nowadays there are only a handful of cars in the large car park.

Is not a lot of this because nearby Mansfield had no station? Though a new direct London service might attract some of the passengers back.

 

[Rugd1022]

Regarding the current 60mph restriction through the platforms at Market Harborough - the curvature is quite severe and the p/way itself is rough here. Raising the line speed to 85mph would require some major works, possibly even a complete realignment through the station, but would it be cost effective for the extra 25mph I wonder?

Nidge

 

[shinkansen1966]

High Speed 2 has been costed at £30 billion over the 10 year build. I read somewhere, that the cost of upgrading MML to 125mph has been estimated at £70m.

If MML were allocated a spend of just 10% of HS2 that would be £3bn. Probably enough to electrify the route, remove bottlenecks, add capacity, lengthen all station platforms to 10-12 carriages, bring more of the line upto 125mph and introduce a fleet of son-of-Pendolino tilt trains. Result: greater passenger capacity, reliable services and journey times to Sheffield of 100 mins and to Nottingham of 80 mins.

There would be little requirement for a lengthy public consulation, little enviromental disruption and you could start work on it tomorrow (well nearly).

 

[ashworth]

High Speed 2 has been costed at £30 billion over the 10 year build. I read somewhere, that the cost of upgrading MML to 125mph has been estimated at £70m.

If MML were allocated a spend of just 10% of HS2 that would be £3bn. Probably enough to electrify the route, remove bottlenecks, add capacity, lengthen all station platforms to 10-12 carriages, bring more of the line upto 125mph and introduce a fleet of son-of-Pendolino tilt trains. Result: greater passenger capacity, reliable services and journey times to Sheffield of 100 mins and to Nottingham of 80 mins.

There would be little requirement for a lengthy public consulation, little enviromental disruption and you could start work on it tomorrow (well nearly).

The time advantages are probably far greater on journeys to Scotland and Newcastle and perhaps even to Birmingham but will there be such a big improvement for Nottingham and Sheffield over what is suggested above.
With the above improvements Nottingham could be reached in 80 minutes and Sheffield in 100 minutes but with this new line first heading NW towards Birmingham before curving back NE towards Nottingham will there really be such a time advantage?
Also how far from the city centres are the Nottingham and Sheffield stations likely to be?

 

[TinManDerby]

Which Way North Of Birmingham for HS2

I was pondering ideas with a friend which route the HS2 extension east of the pennines would go, has to get from Birmingham area to Shefield, thoughts on would they use Erewash Valley Line routing or even the Great Central route near Sutton In Ashfield, have any ideas.

Understand this is the state of the line planning north of Birmingam:

"After Birmingham, the Government's proposed strategy would see the new high speed line running on to Manchester and separately to the East Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds. Connections onto existing tracks would be included, allowing direct high speed train services to be operated to cities including Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Liverpool as soon as the line opens. Further consideration will also be given to extending the network subsequently to these and other major destinations.


HS2 will now begin planning work on the route options from Birmingham to Manchester and to Leeds, to be completed in summer 2011, with a view to consulting early in 2012"

 

[Pumbaa]

How do Virgin train justify 3 tph to both Birmingham Manchester, but only 1 tph to Liverpool Lime Street ?

Pathing constraints perhaps?

No - stock shortage. The path is there for the second Liv I think - xx33. It's used in the peaks from Euston. I'm not sure of the exact return path from Liv - xx13 rings a bell.

When the extra 4 390s get delivered, thats the first change to the TT; Liv will gain the second train.

 

[Geezertronic]

No - stock shortage. The path is there for the second Liv I think - xx33. It's used in the peaks from Euston. I'm not sure of the exact return path from Liv - xx13 rings a bell.

When the extra 4 390s get delivered, thats the first change to the TT; Liv will gain the second train.

It'll be the same with Glasgow making it more of a proper clockface won't it?

 

[Pumbaa]

It'll be the same with Glasgow making it more of a proper clockface won't it?

Not quite - there will still be some gaps in the Glasgow pattern and start and end of day, and one in the middle, with trains turning back by Lancaster. I presume this is to make up the peak out of London with the few extra services that run.

 

[shinkansen1966]

When the extra 4 390s get delivered, thats the first change to the TT; Liv will gain the second train.

When will these extra 4 x 390s be delivered? And when will Liverpool get a second train per hour ?

 

[Pumbaa]

When will these extra 4 x 390s be delivered? And when will Liverpool get a second train per hour ?

Probably May 2011.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Just done the Midland Main Line as far as Sheffield for the first time in years. First did that back in the early 80s, when it was peak/brush hauled Mk2 or 3 coaches taking nearly 3 hrs. Of course, now we have swanky Meridians which are actually not a bad DMU. IMHO, better than Adelantes and Voyagers.

The 125mph upgrades from Elsetree to Trent Junction has been documented here. But north, I noticed a few other speed pinch points, with work finished and work in progress. Trent Junction has a 70mph restriction. There's a terrible 15mph into Derby - can that be sorted out ? And what about 60mph through Ambergate ? Saw all the new points work at Clay Cross, but still an 80mph restriction. Chesterfield's platform 3 is coming along, nicely, but looks a bit flimsy !

Journey times from St Pancras over the last 25 years have come down by 30 mins. But still need to be just below 2 hrs to give the city something comparable with Leeds, Wakefield, Manchester.