Mid Cheshire line terminating at Altrincham

[LOL The Irony]

A Mid Cheshire station -> GM Metrolnk Z1-4 ticket would be so valid, I believe, albeit a tad expensive.

A Knutsford to Manchester CTLZ ticket in 2019 was £11 something vs the £8 off-peak return, an increase in price of about 40%.

 

[jonnyfan]

There are special Metrolink inclusive fares for the Mid-Cheshire line, available from Cuddington onwards to Altrincham - these offer a cheaper combined fare for Metrolink journeys via Altrincham into Manchester than buying separate tickets

 

[Llandudno]

There are special Metrolink inclusive fares for the Mid-Cheshire line, available from Cuddington onwards to Altrincham - these offer a cheaper combined fare for Metrolink journeys via Altrincham into Manchester than buying separate tickets

Are there?
Does anyone know about them, Northern Staff/Website or Metrolink Staff/Website or even potential customers?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are there?
Does anyone know about them, Northern Staff/Website or Metrolink Staff/Website or even potential customers?

Yes but they're noticeably more expensive and kind of why I never buy one.

 

[Taunton]

That's 30 minutes to Piccadilly tram stop, where few will be heading. More like 15-20 to Deansgate Castlefield. Altrincham-Stockport is well served by buses.

When I've used this it was travelling a couple of times from Euston to Altrincham, via Stockport. Having to go on to Manchester would probably add an hour each way overall.

I was surprised how many freights were met on the line.

 

[6Gman]

This is where better communication and connection links need to be developed between Metrolink and Northern, along with Metrolink reducing their prices for rail/tram tickets to attract more passengers. I would consider the tram a luxury for users of this line; quick frequent light rail service into Manchester - other areas have to rely on a more inferior and expensive bus service. With a second train per hour along this line, running as a self contained shuttle between Altrincham and Greenbank/Chester, this could run as part of a connection with a dedicated tram service; as both will start/terminate at Altrincham, the train could be held to wait in case the arriving Metrolink is running late, and vice versa. The majority of commuters and leisure travellers/shoppers are likely to get off at Deansgate or St Peter's Square, and for these places it is quicker using the tram route than the train.

As pointed out already "holding" trams for trains, or trains for trams is going to cause all manner of problems.
Does Metrolink have the capacity for these "more passengers" you want it to serve?
I'll have to disagree on Metrolink trams being a "luxury"; last time I ventured out to Altrincham by tram I was happy to return by train. Sight more comfortable, even on a Pacer!

Fundamentally, I just like having a choice. If I want to change from train to tram I can do so; if I want to go through by train I can do; I can even change to the 263 bus if the mood takes me.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There are special Metrolink inclusive fares for the Mid-Cheshire line, available from Cuddington onwards to Altrincham - these offer a cheaper combined fare for Metrolink journeys via Altrincham into Manchester than buying separate tickets

From Cuddington, I can see fares to Manchester Stns via Stockport priced at £14-80 (Anytime Day Return) and £12-30 (Off Peak Day Return).

Alternatively, there's fares to Metrolink Z1-4 via Altrincham MTLK priced at £20-70 (Anytime Day Return) and £16-40 (Off Peak Day Return).

These latter fares seem to be priced at the sum of a Cuddington to Altrincham Anytime Day Return via Northwich (£13-60) plus a Metrolink Zones 1-4 peak day travelcard (£7-10) which will get you into Manchester City centre.

Off peak = £11-50 + £4-90.

Can't see anything which gives you a choice of both train / tram on arriving at Altrincham although I suppose you could achieve this (off peak) by having a Cuddington - Hale day rail ticket (slightly cheaper than to Altrincham) together with a £9-30 TM Daysaver.

 

[Llandudno]

From Cuddington, I can see fares to Manchester Stns via Stockport priced at £14-80 (Anytime Day Return) and £12-30 (Off Peak Day Return).

Alternatively, there's fares to Metrolink Z1-4 via Altrincham MTLK priced at £20-70 (Anytime Day Return) and £16-40 (Off Peak Day Return).

These latter fares seem to be priced at the sum of a Cuddington to Altrincham Anytime Day Return via Northwich (£13-60) plus a Metrolink Zones 1-4 peak day travelcard (£7-10) which will get you into Manchester City centre.

Off peak = £11-50 + £4-90.

Can't see anything which gives you a choice of both train / tram on arriving at Altrincham although I suppose you could achieve this (off peak) by having a Cuddington - Hale day rail ticket (slightly cheaper than to Altrincham) together with a £9-30 TM Daysaver.

Further evidence of making straight forward public transport journeys overly complicated and expensive.

Surely Northern and TfGM/Metrolink can get their heads together and have fully inter available ticketing with no price penalty between Mid Cheshire Line Stations and Central Manchester.

If Boris and Ursula can sort out a Brexit deal then surely this is possible!

 

[Greybeard33]

Further evidence of making straight forward public transport journeys overly complicated and expensive.

Surely Northern and TfGM/Metrolink can get their heads together and have fully inter available ticketing with no price penalty between Mid Cheshire Line Stations and Central Manchester.

If Boris and Ursula can sort out a Brexit deal then surely this is possible!

The issue is commercial not technical. TfGM has always resisted including Metrolink in the National Rail ORCATS system, because the revenue sharing arrangements would be heavily in favour of the National Rail TOCs. Until Covid, Metrolink did not receive any operating subsidy from central government, so why should it hand over revenue to the likes of Northern?

Therefore through tickets are simply priced as the sum of the separate fares for the National Rail and Metrolink portions of the journey.

Perhaps the changes to the rail franchising system will facilitate the long overdue reform of the National Rail ticketing system, and enable this anomaly to be resolved?

 

[daodao]

Perhaps the changes to the rail franchising system will facilitate the long overdue reform of the National Rail ticketing system, and enable this anomaly to be resolved?

Why? Metrolink, like other light rail systems in the UK provinces, is separate from heavy rail, and I would not expect ticketing co-ordination with National Rail, other than as part of the PlusBus add on system (which currently excludes Metrolink). In addition, it is clear that TfGM are not generally interested in cross-boundary co-ordination with public transport providers and local authorities outside Greater Manchester; just look at the reduction in cross-boundary bus services into Eastern Cheshire.

 

[Ianno87]

Further evidence of making straight forward public transport journeys overly complicated and expensive.

What could be simpler than buying a ticket for the train leg of the journey, and then another ticket for the tram leg of the journey? Rather than a complex set of out-boundary multi-modal tickets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Annoying if you have to queue up at the interchange point to get your second ticket and then just miss a tram departure.

 

[Aictos]

What could be simpler than buying a ticket for the train leg of the journey, and then another ticket for the tram leg of the journey? Rather than a complex set of out-boundary multi-modal tickets.

More to the point why can't there be a agreement in place for a Manchester Plusbus ticket to be valid on both local buses and the Metrolink?

If Edinburgh can do it then why not Manchester least that way you could buy a Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly ticket with a Manchester Plusbus added to it which in my view would make life so much more simpler as you wouldn't need to buy a separate tram ticket.

 

[Ianno87]

Annoying if you have to queue up at the interchange point to get your second ticket and then just miss a tram departure.

That's what Contactless payment is for... Touch in on the reader and go

 

[LOL The Irony]

That's what Contactless payment is for... Touch in on the reader and go

And if you don't have one for whatever reason?

 

[Ianno87]

And if you don't have one for whatever reason?

Get Me There App.

 

[Llandudno]

What could be simpler than buying a ticket for the train leg of the journey, and then another ticket for the tram leg of the journey? Rather than a complex set of out-boundary multi-modal tickets.

Apart from paying around £4 extra for the privilege.

 

[Ianno87]

Apart from paying around £4 extra for the privilege.

But you're getting more services as a result. Connecting tram every 6 minutes rather than an hourly train. And, in theory, convenience of getting closer to where you are going.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Get Me There App.

Granny doesn't have a contactless card (which will charge you for a single journey, therefore being even more expensive) or a smartphone. So what does she use? The ticket machine. Granny also has her over 60 railcard, can she use that on the Metrolink? No.

But you're getting more services as a result. Connecting tram every 6 minutes rather than an hourly train.

But the train is still only every hour. Everyone who likes this idea also seems to have a tendency to forget important details and facts.

 

[Greybeard33]

Why? Metrolink, like other light rail systems in the UK provinces, is separate from heavy rail, and I would not expect ticketing co-ordination with National Rail, other than as part of the PlusBus add on system (which currently excludes Metrolink). In addition, it is clear that TfGM are not generally interested in cross-boundary co-ordination with public transport providers and local authorities outside Greater Manchester; just look at the reduction in cross-boundary bus services into Eastern Cheshire.

All National Rail farebox revenue now goes to the DfT, so there seems little need any more for the complex ORCATS formulae to apportion shares for each route between TOCs.

And the GMCA was forced to accept Treasury bailouts to keep Metrolink running during the Covid crisis. That might give the DfT some leverage if it wants to integrate the fares systems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2020 ==

Granny doesn't have a contactless card (which will charge you for a single journey, therefore being even more expensive) or a smartphone. So what does she use? The ticket machine. Granny also has her over 60 railcard, can she use that on the Metrolink? No.

So granny can buy a through ticket from her local station to Metrolink Z1-4, as stated in post #37. It will cost her the same as buying two separate tickets.

 

[Pete 1981]

23mins for Altrincham to Deansgate / Castlefield. 32 to Piccadilly tram stop.

People who want to change on to the tram no doubt do. How many do it, and how many stay on the train? That might give you a clue as to whether this is sensible or not.

How long does the bus take from Altrincham to Stockport, including an allowance for the change, compared to the 16 minutes by train?

The journey by bus is close to an hour nowadays, used to be quicker on the more direct 371 .

 

[jonnyfan]

Depending on which station you travel from on the mid-Cheshire line, the extra you pay for a metrolink & rail combined fare is very variable, but always cheaper than buying separate metrolink & rail tickets (except for Mouldsworth and Delamere which are not included in the cheaper metrolink & rail travel fare). Everywhere else on the national rail network pays an extra for metrolink travel equivalent exactly to the relevant metrolink fare (except within Greater Manchester where it is cheaper to buy the combined rail & metrolink ticket).

 

[Greybeard33]

The journey by bus is close to an hour nowadays, used to be quicker on the more direct 371 .

The 371 was replaced by the 11A, which is timetabled at 46 minutes but is often delayed in traffic. The more frequent 11 has a very roundabout route via Wythenshawe hospital and takes over an hour.

 

[Ianno87]

Granny doesn't have a contactless card (which will charge you for a single journey, therefore being even more expensive) or a smartphone. So what does she use? The ticket machine. Granny also has her over 60 railcard, can she use that on the Metrolink? No.

Granny will just have to wait an extra 6 minutes then.

My Mum (a Granny) has contactless payment ability. Those who don't are a tiny minority.

But the train is still only every hour. Everyone who likes this idea also seems to have a tendency to forget important details and facts.

Plenty of time to buy a second ticket then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What could be simpler than buying a ticket for the train leg of the journey, and then another ticket for the tram leg of the journey? Rather than a complex set of out-boundary multi-modal tickets.

To be fair, "simple" is probably the wrong word - "one ticket per vehicle journey" as practiced by buses and European mandatory reservation high speed services is the simplest option. What it is, however, is a right faff, and usually causes a financial penalty, too (London buses prior to the hopper fare being a good example of this).

It wouldn't seem to be unduly difficult to put fares into the system for Mid-Cheshire line stations up to but probably not including Chester (as that has another Manchester service) to Manchester Ctlz route METROLINK if people want to do that, even if they were just the sum of a ticket to Altrincham by train and the Metrolink fare to Manchester from there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2020 ==

Annoying if you have to queue up at the interchange point to get your second ticket and then just miss a tram departure.

I suppose you'd not have to queue up if you have a contactless card, just tap in for Metrolink.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2020 ==

My Mum (a Granny) has contactless payment ability. Those who don't are a tiny minority.

Almost all adults will do, however what contactless doesn't offer is the ability to buy tickets for a family travelling together, a very common use-case, and unlike London there isn't free travel on Metrolink for accompanied children.

On the overall point, though, I would not be happy to see this route removed - circumferential connectivity is important, and if it was closed it would be harder to reopen it (perhaps with more stations) later, potentially even as part of Metrolink when that gets to Stockport.

FWIW I also think Metrolink should be extended to Hale (perhaps using a Navigation Road style pair of single tracks) which is the limit of the built-up area. The present situation is a bit like if Merseyrail had stopped at Maghull rather than getting to Ormskirk.

 

[daodao]

FWIW I also think Metrolink should be extended to Hale (perhaps using a Navigation Road style pair of single tracks) which is the limit of the built-up area.

Pointless and unworkable, taking into account the frequency of Metrolink services, coupled with the existing freight/passenger services on the CLC line, the distance involved and the LC at Hale station. I really wouldn't meddle with the existing arrangements, but a second hourly service on the CLC from Manchester via Stockport to Northwich, and then extending to Crewe via Middlewich would be nice to have.

The present situation is a bit like if Merseyrail had stopped at Maghull rather than getting to Ormskirk.

The equivalent in Merseyside would be terminating at Maghull North, but Ormskirk (with Aughton) is a far bigger place than Knutsford and has a university (Edge Hill campus) as well.

-----------------------------

TfGM should be focussing on other areas of Manchester regarding improvements to rail services, in particular in the southern part of the conurbation:

• conversion of the Rose Hill line via Reddish to Metrolink
• 25 kV electrification of the CLC line via Warrington with a better stopping service frequency between Manchester and Irlam
• a more frequent stopping service on the Airport line via Mauldeth Road and Fog Lane (Burnage) stations and elimination of TPE/TfW services from this route

The 371 was replaced by the 11A, which is timetabled at 46 minutes but is often delayed in traffic. The more frequent 11 has a very roundabout route via Wythenshawe hospital and takes over an hour.

The Stockport to Altrincham bus service (formerly NWRCC routes 71 and 80) used to be every 15 minutes (combined), with route 80 being more frequent (every 20 minutes) in the 1960s. Route 71 (which became route 371 and is now 11A) was diverted to run via Wythenshawe Road and Northenden when route 80 (latterly route 370) was withdrawn a few years ago. The remnant of route 370 is now route 288, operated by D&G as far as Parrs Wood only, at a reduced frequency.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Pre-corona, at least, Altrincham to Hale was proposed as one of TfGM's 'pathfinder' trials for tram-train operation (along with Airport - Wilmslow and Rochdale - Heywood). There is no indication of the proposed electrification system (750V DC, 25kV AC or batteries) nor whether it would be a shuttle or an extension of some (or all) of the current Altrincham Metrolink services. Tram-train services right through to Manchester via Sale (such as with Vossloh(Stadler) units) would be a step-change in quality on the M5000s which are shockingly rough-riding at speed on the 'fast' section under the M60. The level-crossing is south of Hale station and there is a trailing crossover midway to Altrincham so such a service would not be 'pointless and unworkable'.

In the longer term, TfGM plan tram-trains Altrincham to Stockport via Northenden (with new dedicated platforms at Edgeley) - and the East Didsbury Metrolink extension would now join this route via Cheadle Heath (rather than running along the Mersey Valley to Stockport). It is also proposed to link with the Metrolink Airport line at Baguley (Southmoor Road) to allow Stockport to Airport and Cornbrook to Airport (via Timperley) services.

TfGM Delivery Plan (See Map on page 10).

If any of this comes to pass then heavy-rail services beyond Altrincham to Stockport and Manchester would be very difficult to justify and would be the appropriate time to truncate them. Ideally, tram-trams should continue to Knutsford, but it is well over the Gtr Manchester 'frontier', so Altrincham Interchange would need its third rebuild to accommodate heavy/light rail interchange.

 

[cle]

Ticketing and transit should be completely brand/mode agnostic and seamless. This country is a joke sometimes.

To the topic, an hourly or even two hourly Altrincham-Northwich shuttle might be very useful. Build up the 'frequency is freedom' sentiment among users, and enable quick changes into Manchester. Many will be headed to Altrincham. The whole Chester - Alty - Stockport - Manchester slog should be accelerated. Stockport terminators also very useful especially for connections south / Hope.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the topic, an hourly or even two hourly Altrincham-Northwich shuttle might be very useful. Build up the 'frequency is freedom' sentiment among users, and enable quick changes into Manchester. Many will be headed to Altrincham. The whole Chester - Alty - Stockport - Manchester slog should be accelerated.

Or decelerated with more stations and by turning it into Metrolink, as it seems is actually proposed.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Plenty of time to buy a second ticket then.

Still not getting more services though, are you?

So granny can buy a through ticket from her local station to Metrolink Z1-4, as stated in post #37. It will cost her the same as buying two separate tickets.

And it's still more expensive than the return to Manchester. So it costs more and you have the inconvenience of changing transport mode. By the time your tram leaves Altrincham, You could be well on your way to Stockport.

If any of this comes to pass then heavy-rail services beyond Altrincham to Stockport and Manchester would be very difficult to justify and would be the appropriate time to truncate them.

Isn't Wilmslow - Manchester Airport on that list of pilot schemes? Would be a shame if all services from Crewe could no longer serve the airport and everyone would have to change onto the tram, wouldn't it?

Ideally, tram-trams should continue to Knutsford, but it is well over the Gtr Manchester 'frontier', so Altrincham Interchange would need its third rebuild to accommodate heavy/light rail interchange.

No business case between Hale & Knutsford.

Or decelerated with more stations and by turning it into Metrolink, as it seems is actually proposed.

And a lower top speed.