Mid Cheshire line terminating at Altrincham

[Philip]

In the interests of allowing more track capacity and paths, would it a good idea for Northern to terminate all Northwich line services at Altrincham? It would ptevent the interfering path movements (minus the freight traffic) over Deansgate Junction; helpful for Metrolink passengers. Would also be very handy at Edgeley Junction as currently Chester-bound services have to cross both the up and down fast lines here to access the Northenden line. Finally it frees up a path between Stockport and Manchester; and the platform space at Manchester.

The drawback is the loss of direct services to Stockport and Manchester for Knutsford and Northwich passengers, but this is lessened considerably by the easy change at Altrincham and the frequent trams from there to the city centre; quicker than taking the train via Stockport as well. It may also allow Northern to run the second service to Greenbank, which would be helpful for the passengers of the stations en route.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

In the interests of allowing more track capacity and paths, would it a good idea for Northern to terminate all Northwich line services at Altrincham? It would ptevent the interfering path movements (minus the freight traffic) over Deansgate Junction; helpful for Metrolink passengers. Would also be very handy at Edgeley Junction as currently Chester-bound services have to cross both the up and down fast lines here to access the Northenden line. Finally it frees up a path between Stockport and Manchester; and the platform space at Manchester.

The drawback is the loss of direct services to Stockport and Manchester for Knutsford and Northwich passengers, but this is lessened considerably by the easy change at Altrincham and the frequent trams from there to the city centre; quicker than taking the train via Stockport as well. It may also allow Northern to run the second service to Greenbank, which would be helpful for the passengers of the stations en route.

The Trams are slow though??????? It’s just not a good idea

 

[Philip]

The Trams are slow though??????? It’s just not a good idea

Not as slow as the train!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not as slow as the train!

Someone else will be along in a minute to say

1) the train is 30 mins from Altrincham to Piccadilly, the tram is 32 minutes plus the interchange.
2) that’s not much help if you want to get to Stockport, or somewhere that connects from Stockport.

 

[The Planner]

In the interests of allowing more track capacity and paths, would it a good idea for Northern to terminate all Northwich line services at Altrincham? It would ptevent the interfering path movements (minus the freight traffic) over Deansgate Junction; helpful for Metrolink passengers. Would also be very handy at Edgeley Junction as currently Chester-bound services have to cross both the up and down fast lines here to access the Northenden line. Finally it frees up a path between Stockport and Manchester; and the platform space at Manchester.

The drawback is the loss of direct services to Stockport and Manchester for Knutsford and Northwich passengers, but this is lessened considerably by the easy change at Altrincham and the frequent trams from there to the city centre; quicker than taking the train via Stockport as well. It may also allow Northern to run the second service to Greenbank, which would be helpful for the passengers of the stations en route.

How does this benefit passengers from the Cheshire side of Altrincham? The answer you are looking for is "it doesn't" What conflicts are there at Deansgate apart from the Cheshire line services with themselves? What are you filling up the path between Stockport and Manchester with, just because a path is freed up there doesn't mean it is the other side of Stockport.

 

[Philip]

How does this benefit passengers from the Cheshire side of Altrincham? The answer you are looking for is "it doesn't" What conflicts are there at Deansgate apart from the Cheshire line services with themselves? What are you filling up the path between Stockport and Manchester with, just because a path is freed up there doesn't mean it is the other side of Stockport.

The benefit is the potential second service along the line and I notice you haven't referred to Edgeley. Not having the Mid Cheshire service crossing the lines there would improve reliability considerably for the existing paths. The path created would be more use for say another service to Hazel Grove and possibly onto Sheffield, or the second Northern service along the Stoke line.

Someone else will be along in a minute to say

1) the train is 30 mins from Altrincham to Piccadilly, the tram is 32 minutes plus the interchange.
2) that’s not much help if you want to get to Stockport, or somewhere that connects from Stockport.

That's 30 minutes to Piccadilly tram stop, where few will be heading. More like 15-20 to Deansgate Castlefield. Altrincham-Stockport is well served by buses.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does the signalling system permit trains to reverse in the Network Rail platforms at Altrincham?

 

[Bald Rick]

That's 30 minutes to Piccadilly tram stop, where few will be heading. More like 15-20 to Deansgate Castlefield. Altrincham-Stockport is well served by buses.

23mins for Altrincham to Deansgate / Castlefield. 32 to Piccadilly tram stop.

People who want to change on to the tram no doubt do. How many do it, and how many stay on the train? That might give you a clue as to whether this is sensible or not.

How long does the bus take from Altrincham to Stockport, including an allowance for the change, compared to the 16 minutes by train?

 

[The Planner]

The benefit is the potential second service along the line and I notice you haven't referred to Edgeley. Not having the Mid Cheshire service crossing the lines there would improve reliability considerably for the existing paths. The path created would be more use for say another service to Hazel Grove and possibly onto Sheffield, or the second Northern service along the Stoke line.



That's 32 minutes to Piccadilly tram stop, where few will be heading. More like 15-20 to Deansgate Castlefield. Altrincham-Stockport is well served by buses.

Is the path across Edgeley an issue? I would suggest not. It is 3 minutes in front of the TfW service in the timetable and looking at todays service, the TfW runs early across Edgeley. The current Stoke service is right behind the Chester so no use, and there is a Hazel Grove stopper 8 minutes behind the Chester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2020 ==

How long does the bus take from Altrincham to Stockport, including an allowance for the change, compared to the 16 minutes by train?

TfGM says the 11A takes 53 minutes, every half an hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

The benefit is the potential second service along the line and I notice you haven't referred to Edgeley. Not having the Mid Cheshire service crossing the lines there would improve reliability considerably for the existing paths. The path created would be more use for say another service to Hazel Grove and possibly onto Sheffield, or the second Northern service along the Stoke line.

So, you propose removing a service on the Stockport - Piccadilly corridor to improve reliability, and promptly fill it back up again with other services. Will that make overall reliability:

1) Better
2) The same

In the same proposal, you intend to remove the only direct services from several Cheshire locations to Manchester, but replace them with additional services to several other locations that already have direct services. Will that make the overall passenger experience for passengers south of Manchester:

1) Better
2) Worse


If you have answered:

Mostly “1” - please check your answers and resubmit

Mostly “2” - correct

 

[Bevan Price]

A better idea would be to convert the single line sections between Altrincham & Stockport back to double track, and reopen stations for Baguley, Northenden area & Cheadle, and to improve the services to at least 2 per hour. If necessary, take back the path "stolen" by WCML between Stockport & Manchester.

 

[nr758123]

People who want to change on to the tram no doubt do. How many do it, and how many stay on the train? That might give you a clue as to whether this is sensible or not.

Through ticketing from outside Greater Manchester on to Metrolink is not available (I'm basing this on my use of the Huddersfield line, I doubt it is different on the Mid-Cheshire line but feel free to correct me if wrong). Whilst this would be easy to fix if the political will was there, but as things are at present it would tend to reduce the incidence of people changing at Altrincham on to the tram.

If the perceived benefit of this idea is to enable a second train to Greenbank per hour, then could not this be achieved by running an Altrincham-Greenbank shuttle, without the need to terminate the existing hourly service at Altrincham?

 

[Philip]

Is the path across Edgeley an issue? I would suggest not. It is 3 minutes in front of the TfW service in the timetable and looking at todays service, the TfW runs early across Edgeley. The current Stoke service is right behind the Chester so no use, and there is a Hazel Grove stopper 8 minutes behind the Chester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2020 ==


TfGM says the 11A takes 53 minutes, every half an hour.

Edgeley is an issue because of northbound trains from Crewe or Stoke, and trains from the east having to wait while this thing crawls across all the tracks, sometimes because its running late. If it departed Stockport from platform 3 or 4 then not so much of an issue, but it usually departs from 1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2020 ==

So, you propose removing a service on the Stockport - Piccadilly corridor to improve reliability, and promptly fill it back up again with other services. Will that make overall reliability:

1) Better
2) The same

In the same proposal, you intend to remove the only direct services from several Cheshire locations to Manchester, but replace them with additional services to several other locations that already have direct services. Will that make the overall passenger experience for passengers south of Manchester:

1) Better
2) Worse


If you have answered:

Mostly “1” - please check your answers and resubmit

Mostly “2” - correct

See the post above about improving reliability at Edgeley.

A good number of these Mid Cheshire stations serve little more than hamlets or small villages, or even a forest! They hardly justify a train service at all, let alone one to Manchester which causes conflicts and takes up a valuable path at the Manchester end. As I say, for Northwich, Knutsford and Hale passengers - it's barely a step down having to change onto the tram, which gets them into town quicker than the train route does. I'd be surprised if there is a huge market for Altrincham to Stockport rail services - many drive over to Wilmslow for southbound connections.

In contrast places like Bramhall, Poynton and Congleton for sure justify a two per hour service interval into Manchester.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I say, for Northwich, Knutsford and Hale passengers - it's barely a step down having to change onto the tram, which gets them into town quicker than the train route does.

But it is a step down, and for many, or even most, people it will take longer when the Interchange is accounted for.

 

[Llandudno]

But isn’t there supposed to be two trains per hour between Greenbank and Manchester at some point.

Should keep the through train to Manchester, perhaps make it semi-fast and then run an extra all stations Chester to Altrincham stopper, with through ticketing on Metrolink

 

[Ianno87]

Does the signalling system permit trains to reverse in the Network Rail platforms at Altrincham?

You have to terminate in Platform 3 then shunt using the crossovers to the north to return to Platform 4.

Used to be done on Sundays pre-Dec 2008 when the mid Cheshire service only ran to Altrincham.

 

[Greybeard33]

The Mid Cheshire is my local line, so I think I can say with confidence that few users would agree with the OP.

Although some commuters change to the Metrolink at Altrincham, it can be inconvenient for the homeward journey. Pre-Covid, the trams used to be crush loaded outbound in the evening peak, such that you were lucky to get a seat before Sale. Changing at Altrincham southbound involves a trek over the footbridge, and, given the frequent delays on Metrolink, plenty of time must be allowed to avoid risk of a missed connection. That makes it quicker to board the train at Piccadilly for anyone starting from that side of the city centre.

Before retirement I commuted to Cheadle Hulme for several years, changing at Stockport, a journey that would have taken much longer via Manchester. I used to favour the peak extras that terminated at/started from Stockport, because the Piccadilly services (2-car 142 or 15x) were usually full and standing between Altrincham and Stockport.

There are considerable interchange flows at Stockport from the Mid Cheshire to services to London, Birmingham/beyond, Sheffield/beyond and Shrewsbury/Hereford/S Wales. Even for Warrington/Liverpool or Bolton/Wigan/Preston it can be preferable to change to/from a through service at Stockport, rather than fight through the crowds on Piccadilly P13/14.

 

[Ianno87]

From casual observation, there is always a healthy load on the platform at Stockport when the mid-Cheshire service arrives.

 

[The Planner]

Edgeley is an issue because of northbound trains from Crewe or Stoke, and trains from the east having to wait while this thing crawls across all the tracks, sometimes because its running late. If it departed Stockport from platform 3 or 4 then not so much of an issue, but it usually departs from 1.

That applies to any flat junction, of which there is a myriad of, what other services do we get rid of?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Through ticketing from outside Greater Manchester on to Metrolink is not available (I'm basing this on my use of the Huddersfield line, I doubt it is different on the Mid-Cheshire line but feel free to correct me if wrong).

Thought through ticketing was still available from rail stations outside Greater Manchester (including on the Mid Cheshire line) to Manchester Metrolink stations by selecting GM Metrolnk Z1 / GM Metrolnk Z1-2 / GM Metrolnk Z1-3 or GM Metrolnk Z1-4 as the destination.

Apart from the latter ticket, think you have to travel via Manchester Stns for the ticket to be valid.

 

[daodao]

The Mid Cheshire is my local line, so I think I can say with confidence that few users would agree with the OP.

I agree. The OP's proposal seems only to have negatives.

 

[6Gman]

I think the OP is also ignoring the problem travelling out of Manchester. What tram would you need to catch to be certain of catching the "connection" from Altrincham to Knutsford etc?

 

[LOL The Irony]

The drawback is the loss of direct services to Stockport and Manchester for Knutsford and Northwich passengers, but this is lessened considerably by the easy change at Altrincham and the frequent trams from there to the city centre; quicker than taking the train via Stockport as well. It may also allow Northern to run the second service to Greenbank, which would be helpful for the passengers of the stations en route.

You forgot the Manchester CTLZ ticket (the ticket that lets you use the trams) being significantly more expensive from those drawbacks.

How does this benefit passengers from the Cheshire side of Altrincham? The answer you are looking for is "it doesn't" What conflicts are there at Deansgate apart from the Cheshire line services with themselves? What are you filling up the path between Stockport and Manchester with, just because a path is freed up there doesn't mean it is the other side of Stockport.

A better idea would be to convert the single line sections between Altrincham & Stockport back to double track, and reopen stations for Baguley, Northenden area & Cheadle, and to improve the services to at least 2 per hour. If necessary, take back the path "stolen" by WCML between Stockport & Manchester.

Someone get these men a beer.

More like 15-20 to Deansgate Castlefield. Altrincham-Stockport is well served by buses.

Ah yes, taking 36 minutes longer than the train is more convenient.

From casual observation, there is always a healthy load on the platform at Stockport when the mid-Cheshire service arrives.

It's busiest between Northwich and Stockport from my experience.

A good number of these Mid Cheshire stations serve little more than hamlets or small villages, or even a forest!

And? Your point is? Are you saying a quite popular national park shouldn't have a rail service because it doesn't really serve anything else? In that case, why not close the Heaton Park stop as that only serves a park?

As I say, for Northwich, Knutsford and Hale passengers - it's barely a step down having to change onto the tram, which gets them into town quicker than the train route does.

Ah yes, I have to GET OFF my train, wait a couple minutes for a tram to arrive and the spend another 5 minutes waiting for the signal to turn green. And funny you won't really mention the time taken to stops beyond Deansgate outside of Piccadilly...

I'd be surprised if there is a huge market for Altrincham to Stockport rail services - many drive over to Wilmslow for southbound connections.

This is categorically untrue. See Ianno87's post about loadings.

In contrast places like Bramhall, Poynton and Congleton for sure justify a two per hour service interval into Manchester.

And Northwich & Knutsford don't? Eh? Knutsford has 13k residents and Northwich has 19k. Poynton has less than 2k more residents than Knutsford, yet Poynton deserves a 2tph service to Manchester and Knutsford should have its curtailed just within the GM border with the passengers booted off onto an inferior mode of transport? Are you out of touch or do you have an agenda?

The Mid Cheshire is my local line, so I think I can say with confidence that few users would agree with the OP.

You don't have to think you can say it, you CAN say it because it's true.

I think the OP is also ignoring the problem travelling out of Manchester. What tram would you need to catch to be certain of catching the "connection" from Altrincham to Knutsford etc?

Yet another problem. You have to time your tram perfectly and ensure it encounters no issues, otherwise you're missing your train.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The destination of "Manchester CTLZ" on rail tickets, which allows some tram travel but only within Metrolink Zone 1 (i.e. the city centre), is only available on rail tickets which originate from within Greater Manchester as far as I am aware.

As such they wouldn't be offered for any journeys originating from most of the outlier stations on the Mid Cheshire line, (i.e. those other than Hale, Altrincham and Navigation Road) and normally also you'd have to travel into Manchester on the heavy rail service via Stockport.

(Used to be the case that there was interavailable ticket acceptance allowing use of the trams into Manchester from Altrincham via Sale, but on Sundays only, this being a throwback to when there was a limited or no heavy rail service between Altrincham and Stockport on Sundays).

 

[Philip]

I think the OP is also ignoring the problem travelling out of Manchester. What tram would you need to catch to be certain of catching the "connection" from Altrincham to Knutsford etc?

This is where better communication and connection links need to be developed between Metrolink and Northern, along with Metrolink reducing their prices for rail/tram tickets to attract more passengers. I would consider the tram a luxury for users of this line; quick frequent light rail service into Manchester - other areas have to rely on a more inferior and expensive bus service. With a second train per hour along this line, running as a self contained shuttle between Altrincham and Greenbank/Chester, this could run as part of a connection with a dedicated tram service; as both will start/terminate at Altrincham, the train could be held to wait in case the arriving Metrolink is running late, and vice versa. The majority of commuters and leisure travellers/shoppers are likely to get off at Deansgate or St Peter's Square, and for these places it is quicker using the tram route than the train.

To say that Ashley, Mobberley, Mouldsworth and Plumley justify the service level they have is a 1950s view. The track is in a state - still jointed in places and with a low top speed. It is basically in the same category as the Atherton line, which regularly gets mentioned as a potential for conversion to light rail or tram/train. If the above proposal isn't so good, a different option could be conversion to light rail throughout to allow trams to run through to Chester, with the Northenden line also being converted, to retain the connection to Stockport. It would prevent the conflict at Edgeley I've mentioned and would free up the path north of Stockport, so that would be good.

 

[Ianno87]

This is where better communication and connection links need to be developed between Metrolink and Northern, along with Metrolink reducing their prices for rail/tram tickets to attract more passengers. Unlike the poster above, I would consider the tram a luxury for users of this line; quick frequent light rail service into Manchester - other areas have to rely on a more inferior and expensive bus service. With a second train per hour along this line, running as a self contained shuttle between Altrincham and Greenbank/Chester, this could run as part of a connection with a dedicated tram service; as both will start/terminate at Altrincham, the train could be held to wait in case the arriving Metrolink is running late, and vice versa.

1) Holding the rail service has consequences; potentially on freight that uses the route, and also on the Mouldsworth-Mickle Trafford single line (and onward connections at Chester)

1A) Not practical or necessary to "hold the tram", given they run every 6 minutes anyway - and the operation of the single line through Navigation Road needs to be slick (notwithstanding the impacts elsewhere on Metrolink)

2) Whilst the northbound connection is reasonably attractive at Altrincham, the southbound connection requires traversing the footbridge, which is also not (IIRC) step-free.

3) IMHO, if you were enforcing a change at Altrincham, you'd need a ~4tph rail service to offset the disbenefit and uncertainty of a connection




I do, however, wonder if there is a market for a ticket valid from Mid-Cheshire stations to the City Centre via Sale, as no doubt it is an attractive route for some passengers (but by no means all)

 

[jfollows]

Thought through ticketing was still available from rail stations outside Greater Manchester (including on the Mid Cheshire line) to Manchester Metrolink stations by selecting GM Metrolnk Z1 / GM Metrolnk Z1-2 / GM Metrolnk Z1-3 or GM Metrolnk Z1-4 as the destination.

Apart from the latter ticket, think you have to travel via Manchester Stns for the ticket to be valid.

This is also my understanding, it's always been possible to get a through ticket from Wilmslow to Sale, but also that this ticket is only valid via Manchester. I have used such a ticket in the past without complaint between Stockport and Navigation Road, for the variety more than any other reason. Last time I made the trip (June 2019) I went on the Manchester Airport tram and changed at Cornbrook, but on this occasion I bought separate tickets, and ended up "getting away with" using the return leg of the cheap day return after 4pm Airport-Wilmslow. In future I'll probably stick to the route via Manchester.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The destination of "Manchester CTLZ" on rail tickets, which allows some tram travel but only within Metrolink Zone 1 (i.e. the city centre), is only available on rail tickets which originate from within Greater Manchester as far as I am aware.

They were available some time ago and were the only thing offered on services to Manchester at some point, but they've been usurped by the off-peak.

leisure travellers/shoppers are likely to get off at Deansgate or St Peter's Square, and for these places it is quicker using the tram route than the train.

Deansgate Castlefield is only useful for the Great Northern warehouse and getting you to Deansgate station and Piccadilly Gardens, Market Street & Exchange Square are all closer (especially Exchange Square) to the shopping area of Manchester. Are you delusional or just conveniently leaving out facts to make your idea seem more desirable?

The track is in a state

News to me. It's a lot more comfortable than the ride between Dane Road and Stretford so it must've suddenly turned into a rollercoaster in the short period I haven't used it due to covid.

still jointed in places

*In very few places.

with a low top speed

Still has a higher top speed than the Metrolink.

a different option could be conversion to light rail throughout to allow trams to run through to Chester, with the Northenden line also being converted, to retain the connection to Stockport.

"The current rail service isn't up to scratch at the current moment, so lets scrap the trains and replace them with a slower, less comfortable LRT!" Yeah, no. Also I'm sure Tata Chemicals Europe, Virridor (or whoever runs the Northernden waste center now) and Drax would love you messing with their trains. Tata and Virridor would have to move or use road transport and Drax & GBRF would have to find other paths for their trains that may not be available.

It would prevent the conflict at Edgeley I've mentioned and would free up the path north of Stockport, so that would be good.

And what would you replace it with, an express shuttle between Stockport & Manchester? What on earth's the purpose of that? Who would use it when it would still have to be timed and pathed for a Sprinter & the current service, therefore slower than the contempary offerings from Avanti, XC, TfW, & TPE?

 

[Ianno87]

I think the NR-owned Metrolink track south of Timperley is still jointed in places - the platforms at Altrincham for example.

The rest north of Timperley is Continuous Welded Rail and has been since the 2007 renewals.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I do, however, wonder if there is a market for a ticket valid from Mid-Cheshire stations to the City Centre via Sale, as no doubt it is an attractive route for some passengers (but by no means all)

A Mid Cheshire station -> GM Metrolnk Z1-4 ticket would be so valid, I believe, albeit a tad expensive.