Microfleets in 2019

[tbtc]

At the moment there are a few "microfleets" (a token number of units that doesn't seem to have economies of scale), generally seen as A Bad Thing.

We quite often see arguments against certain schemes since they'd end up with a microfleet (which is seen as inefficient - more spares needed, harder to keep staff trained on such a small number of trains, less flexibility etc).

For example, Northern could run EMUs from Newcastle to Morpeth/ Chathill if they no longer ran through to the Metro Centre, but this would mean just one or two local EMUs at Heaton which would be more hassle than it's worth...

...the Bidston - Wrexham line may sit better with Merseyrail than ATW, but it wouldn't be worth the all-electric franchise taking on a couple of 150/153s to provide this service...

...SWT could have a 456 at Lymington but it'd be too much hassle to keep one such unit so far from their London inner-suburban home (not worth training staff/ too expensive to maintain one non-standard EMU, too far to run light each day to London) - a sledgehammer to crack a nut. PLEASE LET'S NOT HAVE THE LYMINGTON ARGUMENT AGAIN - I'm only using it as an example of where the hassle of a microfleet outweighs benefits.

Some of the microfleets are because there are only a handful of such units in the UK (LM 139s, ATW/Chiltern 121s).

Some of the microfleets are the result of fudge (like TPE getting nine young 170s rather than additional new 185s).

We seem to be moving away from these small fleets (even within TOCs - e.g. Northern putting their 155/158s in "Yorkshire" and their 156s in "Lancashire"/ "North East") - I suspect that some of the franchise boundaries in 2007 (when Central Trains were split up) were arranged along the lines of who operated what type of stock (158s to EMT and ATW, 170s to LM and XC)...

...however, electrification over CP5 will shake the map up a bit, which got me thinking - what microfleets could we see in 2019?

For example, electrification to Corby should see the MML operator running a small number of 100/110mph 387s (or equivalent) - rather than the same 125mph stock that they'll run on London - East Midlands/ Yorkshire services.

...plus a couple of "local" EMUs for the Leicester - Nottingham stopper (which presumably wouldn't be the same 387s?).

If the Wales & Borders franchise sees most of its 75mph DMUs (142/143/150/153) replaced by EMUs in the Cardiff/ Swansea area then it's going to be left with a small and geographically disparate number of "local" DMUs to run Blaenau Ffestiniog/ Bidston/ Crewe/ Heart of Wales/ Cheltenham/ West Wales services (would it be easier for the slow services in north Wales/ Cheshire area being moved to "Northern" for operational reasons, rather than running 150s all the way from Swansea when something goes wrong?).

If new 390s are built for London - Blackpool/ Bolton and London/Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh then does that mean the WCML franchise will only have a token number of Voyagers (enough to run services to Chester/ Holyhead)?

With electrification of the Thames Valley branches, the GWML and the line to Basingstoke, will this leave a microfleet of DMUs at Reading to run the former Thames Trains routes to Gatwick and Bedwyn?

Allerton TMD may have only a tiny number of DMUs when lines from Liverpool to Manchester/ Wigan/ Blackpool are electrified (leaving only one unelectrified route out of Liverpool).

London Midland's DMU requirements are going to get low when Marston Vale, Nuneaton, Chase etc lines are electrified (leaving only Hereford and Shrewsbury on top of the Snow Hill 172s).

Any other (potential) microfleets I'm forgetting? (based on known electrification commitments)

(for the sake of argument, let's call a microfleet something in single figures)

 

[Aictos]

How about Govia and the TSGN network as in 2019, there will be 4 fleets alone on the GN consisting of Class 313 replacement/Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s/Class 365s surely it would have been more economical to cascade the entire Class 365 fleet elsewhere and just allow a addon order of Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s to replace them rather then having a small fleet of Class 365s remaining.

 

[D6975]

FGW have a micro fleet by your definition.

They have 8 143s which are mainly used on Exeter area stoppers.

Cascades due to the GWML electrification may well see them depart though.

 

[northwichcat]

If new 390s are built for London - Blackpool/ Bolton and London/Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh then does that mean the WCML franchise will only have a token number of Voyagers (enough to run services to Chester/ Holyhead)?

Virgin proposed no Voyagers and diesel-electric locos would be used to serve non-electrified destinations.

First proposed keeping all the Voyagers currently with Virgin with an order of new electrics to allow all Birmingham-Scotland and Birmingham-London services to be electric. It's not just Chester/Holyhead - the West Coast bids proposed serving Shrewsbury and Telford as well.

Allerton TMD may have only a tiny number of DMUs when lines from Liverpool to Manchester/ Wigan/ Blackpool are electrified (leaving only one unelectrified route out of Liverpool).

One thing to note is a number of the 156s based at Allerton are used on Manchester area services. A bit like Sheffield getting 142s on services, despite none (on paper) being based at Neville Hill.

 

[jopsuk]

the TSGN 365 "peak hours crowd buster" micro fleet is an odd one- though with no news as to how big it will need to be.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The West Yorkshire 321/322s (effectively 2 microfleets in 1) is an odd one, and with no real plans for electric local stock in the area will likely remain so. Extra EMUs should be coming in around 2020 (local services on the Huddersfield and Selby/York lines for example) but what they're likely to be is unknown. 321s displaced from GN or GE would be an obvious choice as Neville Hill already has similar units. 317s and 319s are just as likely though, and any of those will need platforms at several locations to be extended or will need a car removing, as there are no 3x20m units likely to be displaced from anywhere.

 

[tbtc]

How about Govia and the TSGN network as in 2019, there will be 4 fleets alone on the GN consisting of Class 313 replacement/Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s/Class 365s surely it would have been more economical to cascade the entire Class 365 fleet elsewhere and just allow a addon order of Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s to replace them rather then having a small fleet of Class 365s remaining.

the TSGN 365 "peak hours crowd buster" micro fleet is an odd one- though with no news as to how big it will need to be.

The 365s are an odd one. There's only 41 of them, so not a huge fleet to be split between more than one TOC (as seems to be the proposal).

Wouldn't it be more use to the railway overall to put the whole fleet somewhere that a four coach EMU should be okay to work in single formation (given the lack of corridor connections), and keep the 317s as "crowd busters"?

The 317s are around ten years older than the 365s, and their corridor connections are more suited to working in multiple (like these GN rush hour services will obviously have to be) - why not cascade the more modern 365s to routes like Bristol - Swansea, Liverpool - Birmingham, Manchester - Blackpool or Leeds - Selby instead?

You could even argue that forty one 365s could provide the TPE services from Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Selby/Newcastle for the first few years of electrification (though probably doubled up on the Leeds - Manchester "core").

I'm all for finding a use for cascaded "London" EMUs (like 315s on the Valley Lines, 319s on the "Lancashire Triangle"), but it seems odd to be keeping younger units without corridor connections for a couple of rush hour services a day rather than using the 317s on these.

The West Yorkshire 321/322s (effectively 2 microfleets in 1) is an odd one, and with no real plans for electric local stock in the area will likely remain so. Extra EMUs should be coming in around 2020 (local services on the Huddersfield and Selby/York lines for example) but what they're likely to be is unknown. 321s displaced from GN or GE would be an obvious choice as Neville Hill already has similar units. 317s and 319s are just as likely though, and any of those will need platforms at several locations to be extended or will need a car removing, as there are no 3x20m units likely to be displaced from anywhere.

Agreed about the 321/322s - the microfleet of three 321s was always an oddity - even now eight EMUs is a pretty awkward size. I've not done the maths to work out how many extra "local" EMUs will be needed around Leeds in 2019 (partly as it depends on franchise boundaries - e.g. will "TPE" be taking over all Selby services - and partly as it depends on whether Hull is wired by then), but more 319s is probably the way forward (since electrification through Huddersfield will mean there'd be a benefit to having the same "local" EMUs both sides of the Pennines).

Trouble is, what do you do with the sixteen 333s? They're not a huge fleet either - would it be better to have thirtyish common EMUs at Neville Hill rather than 321s, 322s, 333s and whatever extra units are drafted in for newly electrified local services? Or is it not worth considering moving the 333s unless HEx give up their 332s (since thirty Siemens EMUs is more of a critical mass)?

At least the 321s (and their "321s in all but name" sister units the 322s) can go to GA, along with the seven LM 321s. But then, if LM give up the 321s, what about the Abbey Line? Overkill for a 350... is there any easy way to run it with a spare 313 from the Great Northern? (since it's operationally separate from the rest of LM, if there was an easy way to get 313s from Hornsey to Watford Junction each night, would it be easier to give the branch to TSGN?)

 

[jopsuk]

I need to make two points on your otherwise reasonable 365 analysis:
1: Since 2002 there's only been 40 365s

2: They're extensively used, DOO, in two (8car) and three (12car) unit formations as it is.

 

[DarloRich]

London Midland's DMU requirements are going to get low when Marston Vale, Nuneaton, Chase etc lines are electrified (leaving only Hereford and Shrewsbury on top of the Snow Hill 172s).

I am not convinced that these routes will all be wired up by that date. I have a horrible feeling we on the Marston Vale line will still be chugging about on a 150 or 153.

 

[RobShipway]

Maybe, I am missing something but I thought that the class 365 was just a overhead powered version of the Class 465 of which there is 187?

 

[BantamMenace]

333s would be the best for the valley lines with their good hill climbing capabilities. 321s and 322s could go to the other side of the pennines and then a larger fleet drafted in to operate the airedale, wharfedale, doncaster, york via garforth, selby, huddersfield and hopefully eventually the Harrogate line. Sheffield locals to follow also by mid 2020s with a bit of luck

 

[ScotGG]

How about Govia and the TSGN network as in 2019, there will be 4 fleets alone on the GN consisting of Class 313 replacement/Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s/Class 365s surely it would have been more economical to cascade the entire Class 365 fleet elsewhere and just allow a addon order of Class 700s/Class377/5s or Class 387s to replace them rather then having a small fleet of Class 365s remaining.

Agree - any remaining 365s can go to Southeastern (they are very similar to their 465s) and order more 700s or 377/387 for GN?

 

[Aictos]

The 365s are an odd one. There's only 41 of them, so not a huge fleet to be split between more than one TOC (as seems to be the proposal).

Wouldn't it be more use to the railway overall to put the whole fleet somewhere that a four coach EMU should be okay to work in single formation (given the lack of corridor connections), and keep the 317s as "crowd busters"?

The 317s are around ten years older than the 365s, and their corridor connections are more suited to working in multiple (like these GN rush hour services will obviously have to be) - why not cascade the more modern 365s to routes like Bristol - Swansea, Liverpool - Birmingham, Manchester - Blackpool or Leeds - Selby instead?

You could even argue that forty one 365s could provide the TPE services from Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Selby/Newcastle for the first few years of electrification (though probably doubled up on the Leeds - Manchester "core").

I'm all for finding a use for cascaded "London" EMUs (like 315s on the Valley Lines, 319s on the "Lancashire Triangle"), but it seems odd to be keeping younger units without corridor connections for a couple of rush hour services a day rather than using the 317s on these.

Sending the 40 Class 365s as a single fleet would make more sense and use them with TPE but the question then remains of what to do with the Class 185 fleet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

333s would be the best for the valley lines with their good hill climbing capabilities. 321s and 322s could go to the other side of the pennines and then a larger fleet drafted in to operate the airedale, wharfedale, doncaster, york via garforth, selby, huddersfield and hopefully eventually the Harrogate line. Sheffield locals to follow also by mid 2020s with a bit of luck

The 333s won't be going to the Valley Lines! Their long term future might not be where they are now though, as if passenger numbers continue to grow on the Airedale line, units capable of 6 car formations (the realistic maximum for the services via Shipley) will be needed. As a result, the 333s themselves may become part of the fleet for the rest of West Yorkshire...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sending the 40 Class 365s as a single fleet would make more sense and use them with TPE but the question then remains of what to do with the Class 185 fleet.

That's a question that will need answering anyway, to be fair. The majority of them won't be staying where they are...

 

[northwichcat]

The 333s won't be going to the Valley Lines! Their long term future might not be where they are now though, as if passenger numbers continue to grow on the Airedale line, units capable of 6 car formations (the realistic maximum for the services via Shipley) will be needed. As a result, the 333s themselves may become part of the fleet for the rest of West Yorkshire...

Refurbish them to regional standard and they'd be suitable for semi-fasts on TPE. Given refurbished 365s are apparently an option, I don't think refurbished 333s will be any worse.

 

[VP185]

There's rumours the 365 fleet will transfer to FGW to replace the 165/166s. They are effectively an electric version of the Turbo

 

[northwichcat]

There's rumours the 365 fleet will transfer to FGW to replace the 165/166s. They are effectively an electric version of the Turbo

There's a lot of rumours re:FGW. It's not even been decided if they'll get 100mph units initially and upgrade to 110mph at a later date or get 110mph units from the outset.

 

[D6975]

Maybe, I am missing something but I thought that the class 365 was just a overhead powered version of the Class 465 of which there is 187?

Not quite, 365s are dual voltage. Their 3rd rail capability hasn't been used for quite a while though, it was decomissioned/removed when they went to WAGN.

 

[D365]

Y'all appear to be making out the 365 to be more similar to the other Networkers than they actually are... But what concerns me most is indeed the situation on how many we'll need to keep for non-Thameslink/Moorgate (i.e. Kings Cross) GN service. Totally vague and I suppose it won't be cleared up until well into the Govia TSGN days.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Refurbish them to regional standard and they'd be suitable for semi-fasts on TPE. Given refurbished 365s are apparently an option, I don't think refurbished 333s will be any worse.

True, at least the 333s have air-conditioning!

 

[David Goddard]

It was in one of the magazines recently that TSGN will use 377s (/2s?) on the Cambridge fast/Kings Lynn workings, so with all other outer suburban duties moving to 700s there will only be the Peterborough peak expresses to cover.

I'm all for keeping the 365s together, and yes we would love them here on the GW locals, but as stated their 100mph maximum will be against them which renders them unsuitable. I have therefore been torn in my mind where I think they should go.

Having done some rough working out, they fleet appears to be the right size for the core Transpennine routes (ie Liv/Manc to York, Newcastle etc, and to Blackpool) once electrified, with some spare for strengthening of core journeys as appropriate. This would therefore be a suitable home for them, they are much better than 319s and certainly have a more modern look and feel to them.
Transpennine therefore gets my vote. As for the 185s they displace, there are many options, with a few in mind.

Back to microfleets, we already have two microfleets of 172s (Chiltern and LOROL), and each of GA's diesel fleets could be described as a microfleet given the small number of each that they have.

 

[Aictos]

True, at least the 333s have air-conditioning!

Air con could surely be retro fitted to 365, they did it with 317/7s when they were converted from 317/2s.

 

[tbtc]

I need to make two points on your otherwise reasonable 365 analysis:
1: Since 2002 there's only been 40 365s

2: They're extensively used, DOO, in two (8car) and three (12car) unit formations as it is.

Ah, yes, Potters Bar

I appreciate that 365s run in multiple as things are, I just think that in an ideal world we'd be better to have the joined up services run by units with corridor connections (i.e. 317s on the Peterborough peak extras) which therefore means the units without corridor connections (i.e. 365s) being moved to routes where they'd generally be used in single formation (be that Bristol - Swansea, Liverpool - Birmingham, Manchester - Blackpool etc).

Since there are 1980s 100mph 317s at FCC already on the GN, I think that any eight/twelve coach "crowd buster" services would be better run by them, with the younger 365s being cascaded to routes where they can generally work in single formation.

Keeping twenty year old EMUs to run a couple of London services a day, whilst cascading thirty year old EMUs to work day in/day out elsewhere in the UK seems a waste of the younger units.

(appreciate I'm maybe not explaining myself very well here though!)

I am not convinced that these routes will all be wired up by that date. I have a horrible feeling we on the Marston Vale line will still be chugging about on a 150 or 153.

Tricky one. If the Marston Vale line were a stand alone project, I'd argue with you, but since it's tied to the whole "East - West" stuff (which isn't really a NR priority as I understand it), it could be pushed back, meaning keeping a tiny DMU fleet at a time when most other LM diesel duties apart from Snow Hill are being converted to EMUs.

In which case, that'd leave LM with Marston Vale, Snow Hill, Shrewsbury and Hereford. Shrewsbury fits nicely into the Wales & Borders franchise, Hereford maybe with XC... which leaves Marston Vale as a bit of an oddity - give it to EMT to run from Leicester? (removes tongue from cheek)

Sending the 40 Class 365s as a single fleet would make more sense and use them with TPE but the question then remains of what to do with the Class 185 fleet.

I've not seen anyone do the maths for how may 185s a half hourly Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield service (with hourly extensions to Nottingham and Hull) would take up - maybe half the 185 fleet?

That may mean that we could keep the other units busy on Blackpool - Burnley - Leeds - York - Scarborough/Middlesbrough* services plus the Calder Valley?

Plenty of hilly lines in t'north where the power of a 185 could be used - Buxton?

(* - putting alternate Blackpool services to Middlesbrough and Scarborough to maintain a direct bi-hourly Leeds service to each is an idea of mine rather than anything official, I'm not pretending there's any reality in this one!)

It was in one of the magazines recently that TSGN will use 377s (/2s?) on the Cambridge fast/Kings Lynn workings, so with all other outer suburban duties moving to 700s there will only be the Peterborough peak expresses to cover.

I'm all for keeping the 365s together, and yes we would love them here on the GW locals, but as stated their 100mph maximum will be against them which renders them unsuitable. I have therefore been torn in my mind where I think they should go.

Having done some rough working out, they fleet appears to be the right size for the core Transpennine routes (ie Liv/Manc to York, Newcastle etc, and to Blackpool) once electrified, with some spare for strengthening of core journeys as appropriate. This would therefore be a suitable home for them, they are much better than 319s and certainly have a more modern look and feel to them

Interesting stuff, cheers.

 

[Class377/5]

It was in one of the magazines recently that TSGN will use 377s (/2s?) on the Cambridge fast/Kings Lynn workings, so with all other outer suburban duties moving to 700s there will only be the Peterborough peak expresses to cover.

Not quite. Cambridge is getting 6tph to London.

2tph Kings Lynn/Cambridge flyer (377)
2tph Thameslink (700)
2tph stopping service (377)

As for which 377s, my guess is 377/5 to GN and 377/2 to Southern Metro/WLL services. Makes sense that if your going to have a spilt in the dual voltage 377s that you'd do it down the class number as there are some differences between the two builds. Plus 377/5 are already known at Hornsey.

 

[jopsuk]

Not quite. Cambridge is getting 6tph to London.

2tph Kings Lynn/Cambridge flyer (377)
2tph Thameslink (700)
2tph stopping service (377)

As for which 377s, my guess is 377/5 to GN and 377/2 to Southern Metro/WLL services. Makes sense that if your going to have a spilt in the dual voltage 377s that you'd do it down the class number as there are some differences between the two builds. Plus 377/5 are already known at Hornsey.

You're not right there. The stopping services will be 8-car 700s to Tattenham Corner.

Which presumably means SDO operation as last I head there were no plans to lengthen the rural Cambridgeshire stations

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Sending the 40 Class 365s as a single fleet would make more sense and use them with TPE but the question then remains of what to do with the Class 185 fleet.

Could 185s eventually be converted to electric (engines, fuel tanks, etc removed and replaced with electric traction package) or would it be cheaper to just order a new build of electric Desiros?

 

[jopsuk]

Almost certainly better value to buy new trains. To refit with electric traction would require bogie replacement and structural modifications.

 

[northwichcat]

I've not seen anyone do the maths for how may 185s a half hourly Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield service (with hourly extensions to Nottingham and Hull) would take up - maybe half the 185 fleet?

The TPE consultation was suggesting 3tph between Manchester and Sheffield - possibly with the extra service starting from Chester. If that happens the idea of half-hourly Liverpool-Sheffield doesn't work, so it could maybe finish up as:
1. Liverpool-Nottingham. (Network Rail's plans for platform lengthening include allowing 6 car 185s at Liverpool South Parkway and Widnes.)
2. Chester-Sheffield
3. Manchester Airport to Doncaster and beyond. The consultation recommended Hull instead of Cleethorpes but that's not gone down well and there's probably more opposition to it than splitting Liverpool-Norwich. If DfT want to go ahead with splitting Liverpool-Norwich but want to retain a cross Nottingham link they could always give Leeds-Nottingham to EMT to run as a through service using 158s.

Depending on the status of Hull electrification there's the possibility of Piccadilly-Hull remaining as a diesel service initially. (The HLOS DfT drew up did envisage it being a through diesel service in 2019.) Maybe if that happens we'd have a Liverpool-Warrington-Hull class 185 service for the first couple of years post-Manchester to York electrification?

There's also the question of where units will be freed up from to serve Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Barrow and to a lesser extent Windermere if they are removed from the TPE map and don't continue to be class 185 operated.

 

[D365]

Not quite. Cambridge is getting 6tph to London.

2tph Kings Lynn/Cambridge flyer (377)
2tph Thameslink (700)
2tph stopping service (377)

As for which 377s, my guess is 377/5 to GN and 377/2 to Southern Metro/WLL services. Makes sense that if your going to have a spilt in the dual voltage 377s that you'd do it down the class number as there are some differences between the two builds. Plus 377/5 are already known at Hornsey.

I've seen numerous mention of 377 (presumably /5) going to GN Cambridge on these forums; I'm not entirely doubting the reputability of this information, but is there an article online which backs this up? With 23 4-car 377/5 units, how many more units would be needed to 'complete Kings Cross suburban service' i.e. to take over the Peterborough fasts?

Which presumably means SDO operation as last I head there were no plans to lengthen the rural Cambridgeshire stations

Why so? Since a 377/5 is the same length as a 365, just do as is done today and split the train at Cambridge.

 

[petersi]

I've seen numerous mention of 377 (presumably /5) going to GN Cambridge on these forums; I'm not entirely doubting the reputability of this information, but is there an article online which backs this up? With 23 4-car 377/5 units, how many more units would be needed to 'complete Kings Cross suburban service' i.e. to take over the Peterborough fasts?




Why so? Since a 377/5 is the same length as a 365, just do as is done today and split the train at Cambridge.

The article is here

The 377/5 will not be stoppers class 700 fixed length 8 cars will be used as they go through the core.