MG11 rather than Penalty Fare

[cuccir]

First, can we note that the status of advice and discussion on this forum is much better when:
* Suggestions that a member of staff might have done wrong are not understood as statements that all rail staff are lazy
* Suggestions that a passenger might have done something wrong are not understood as anti-passenger rants

If you disagree with someone, go for an actual response rather than sarcasm and ad hominem attacks.

Second:

The law does not provide an excuse or defence that the ticketing facilities were too busy.

The situation is much murkier than this. Byelaw 18 actually states that:

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

A lawyer might well be able to construct a defence around the 'time when he began his journey' element, whereby facilities are not accessible within a reasonable time. Indeed, see DaveNewcastle's discussion of this in a recent thread, confirming that there is no case law where this defence has been tested (to his knowledge). This does not of course mean that it will work, but it certainly leaves open the possibility.

In practice, it is not in any TOC's interest to prosecute where this defence might be used, so that it is unlikely to ever be tested.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, these are the situations where goodwill gestures are used 'just this once'.

 

[LowLevel]

Complain to the DFT maybe about the closed ticket office?

EMT have been pulled about this before,

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/210780/emt-breach-notice-17-june-2013.pdf

Yeah, they've responded by hiving Oakham and Mansfield off to private companies (and I assume that's the thin end of the wedge).

 

[rdwarr]

It's one of those stories that begs for a bit of common sense before the papers get hold of it. On the face of it it looks as though five sepatate attempts were made to buy tickets for this journey:
1) Ticket office at origin (closed)
2) First ticket machine (broken)
3) Second ticket macine (too busy)
4) On train (thwarted by rowdy passengers)
5) At destination (blocked by RPIs)
The prosecution seems to depend on whether or not they should have missed the train whilst queueing for that second ticket machine. Having arrived at Beeston around 15 minutes before departure that is shaky to say the least.

I hope that this does not escalate and that the matter is resolved in a sensible manner.

 

[island]

A byelaw offence, at worst, based on what the OP has said. But such a byelaw offence is supposedly meant to be dealt with by a Penalty Fare, in a Penalty Fare area. Except this appears to have been an XC service, so EMT couldn't do that. I wonder if EMT are threatening XC/NT passengers with prosecution while giving their own Penalty Fares...?

What else would you suggest they do?

 

[34D]

What else would you suggest they do?

Charge the full anytime - it's as near to a PF as they can go

 

[bramling]

It's one of those stories that begs for a bit of common sense before the papers get hold of it. On the face of it it looks as though five sepatate attempts were made to buy tickets for this journey:
1) Ticket office at origin (closed)
2) First ticket machine (broken)
3) Second ticket macine (too busy)
4) On train (thwarted by rowdy passengers)
5) At destination (blocked by RPIs)
The prosecution seems to depend on whether or not they should have missed the train whilst queueing for that second ticket machine. Having arrived at Beeston around 15 minutes before departure that is shaky to say the least.

I hope that this does not escalate and that the matter is resolved in a sensible manner.

The issue of what constitutes sufficient time allowed to buy a ticket has never really been properly resolved by the railway.

So long as the original poster's story is accurate, I don't see what more he can reasonably have been expected to do. If he turned up over 15 minutes before the train (for a five-minute journey) to any resonable person that is more than reasonable. The trouble is it's quite possible for any ticket machine or window to become waylayed by one or more persons with complex transactions (or some who just faff around asking for information they don't need or that could easily be obtained elsewhere). You also get situations where someone wants a complex ticket, or wants to purchase some kind of promotion, and the booking clerk takes time to work out how to do it.

Last week I waited 20 minutes at Littlehampton to purchase a simple return ticket in consequence of the last of those situations. It is immensely frustrating as PRIV tickets cannot be purchased except at a booking office, however in this situation at least generally on-train staff show discretion (although can't be relied upon). I would hate to be in the OP's situation, and hope that the situation gets resolved in his favour by way of a complaint to EMT.

 

[alastair]

Yeah, they've responded by hiving Oakham and Mansfield off to private companies (and I assume that's the thin end of the wedge).

What exactly is the problem with that?

This quote from local rag sounds like good news for passengers:

Rail passengers are set to benefit as Oakham railway station’s ticket office opening hours have been extended.

The opening hours have increased by 75 minutes every weekday, providing a service from 6.30am to 2pm.

In the longer term, there are plans to extend the opening times further, increase staff numbers and open a second ticket window. The ticket office is now running on behalf of East Midlands Trains by family-run business Oakham Station Travel, which has operated the office at Ludlow railway station in Shropshire.

Andy Moore of East Midlands Trains said: “We’re pleased to offering passengers in Oakham an improved service with longer ticket office opening hours.

“We are confident that Oakham Station Travel will offer high quality service.”

 

[LowLevel]

Oakham I will admit seems like a half decent opportunity in that as far as I can tell the Ludlow guys are well respected and a long history on the railway, and with the kind of town Oakham is, there's a decent potential for development. The TPS Rail lot however I'm more dubious about - their website screams out about cost savings, cost savings, cost savings. They're a bus mob which rarely seems to be a good thing. Certainly I've heard one or two things from people in the area about their ticketing records (the first one was a cracker, no senior rail cards at peak time). I have no doubt they'll be paying their staff less than their EMT colleagues with no railway pension or benefits of that kind though, and if that's how all small to medium booking offices end up, that's unfortunate - it'll be like the minimum wage onboard trolley staff that I understand work for Rail Gourmet.

 

[marvster0681]

Thanks to all who have posted. This is certainly an evocative and potentially misunderstood matter. I have been doing a lot of research and received some good advice from various sources. Below are my main conclusions to date:

1. Most definitely in the eyes of the regulations and bylaws my wife and myself were in the possibly in the wrong for boarding the train with no valid ticket despite our attempts to, and subsequently attempt to do so. We have then been found to have no ticket for travel and are being dealt with according to EMTs standard procedures. Whether EMT show leniency in terms of a settlement or not is now at their discretion.
2. Does it seem unfair to the common man based on our efforts and circumstances to reasonably purchase a ticket? I believe it does.
3. Would I expect special treatment from EMT in this matter? No, we fell foul of the regulations/bylaws and will accept our fate. Or challenge, naturally, through the courts if there is no settlement and this advances straight to prosecution.
4. Is it confusing to ordinary passengers that when boarding from a station where there are manned & unmanned 24/7 ticketing facilities, where the regs and bylaws state you should not board without a ticket, you are subsequently allowed to purchase a ticket on board from the conductor. Yes, as when this process fails, as in our case, you are completely stuck if you disembark at a station where exit requires a valid ticket as it implies to the RPOs that you are demonstrating an intent to leave the station without a valid ticket for travel.
5. Does EMT's passenger charter, with respect to waiting times for tickets, protect passengers from the regulations/bylaws. I don't believe it does, as this would be for a court to decide for which there are severe risks/penalties involved if the court disagrees with you.

All in all, and after cooling down and thinking about this semi-rationally, I'm afraid it is lesson learned never to board a train without a valid ticket. The severity of the lesson in now in EMTs hands.

 

[Greenback]

Below are my main conclusions to date:

1. Most definitely in the eyes of the regulations and bylaws my wife and myself were in the possibly in the wrong for boarding the train with no valid ticket despite our attempts to, and subsequently attempt to do so. We have then been found to have no ticket for travel and are being dealt with according to EMTs standard procedures. Whether EMT show leniency in terms of a settlement or not is now at their discretion.

Yes, that's about it. I hope that EMT will show leniency in the circumstances.

2. Does it seem unfair to the common man based on our efforts and circumstances to reasonably purchase a ticket? I believe it does.

I agree with you, and I hope that a court will if it ever comes to that. TOC's need to either do better in regard to their retailing facilities, or accept that occasionally people are going to be unable to purchase before boarding.

3. Would I expect special treatment from EMT in this matter? No, we fell foul of the regulations/bylaws and will accept our fate. Or challenge, naturally, through the courts if there is no settlement and this advances straight to prosecution.

I don't think anyone deserves special treatment, but EMT should pay due attention to the circumstances of each case, as set out by the passenger.

Penalising passengers who have tried to buy a ticket, allowed plenty of tiem to buy a ticket, and just been unable is not in anyone's interest. It certainly wouldn't encourage any repeat business!

4. Is it confusing to ordinary passengers that when boarding from a station where there are manned & unmanned 24/7 ticketing facilities, where the regs and bylaws state you should not board without a ticket, you are subsequently allowed to purchase a ticket on board from the conductor. Yes, as when this process fails, as in our case, you are completely stuck if you disembark at a station where exit requires a valid ticket as it implies to the RPOs that you are demonstrating an intent to leave the station without a valid ticket for travel.

You are correct. Where I live it is common for people to buy on the train, even though there is a mornings only ticket office and a TVM at my home station.

There are unstaffed stations on the route as well, and some of those buying on board probably encountered difficulties with queues and machine availablity. Fortunately, anyone who does not see the conductor will normally be given the opportunity to pay their fare on arrival. There are dedicated excess fares windows at both Swansea and Cardiff and the barrier staff are very familiar with the fact that it's impossible for the guards to get through all of the train on every service.

If you have encountered the problems that you encountered when travelling from my station, you would not have been penalised at all.

5. Does EMT's passenger charter, with respect to waiting times for tickets, protect passengers from the regulations/bylaws. I don't believe it does, as this would be for a court to decide for which there are severe risks/penalties involved if the court disagrees with you.

Again, you are correct. That is what the courts are for. I see no good reason for EMT to take it that far, though such is the perversity of the rail system at times, nothing would ever surprise me.

All in all, and after cooling down and thinking about this semi-rationally, I'm afraid it is lesson learned never to board a train without a valid ticket. The severity of the lesson in now in EMTs hands.

There is also the lesson that if you behave in an identical way in different parts of the network, what will happen could be very different, with penalties ranging from paying for a full price undiscounted Anytime ticket, receiving a Penalty Fare, and being prosecuted. Or receiving no penalty at all!

It's difficult to give advice as to what to do in these sorts of situations, as not only are the possible outcomes vastly different across the country, but also because people's aversion to risk varies greatly too.

 

[marvster0681]

Hello everyone. This thread is in relation to the thread below which appears to have been closed. Apologies if posting a second thread is not good form but I would like to give all those that come to this forum for answers/advice/experiences an update on my particular experience.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98344

So as expected EMT did issue myself and my wife with an "Intent to Prosecute" notice and there was indeed a settlement for about £70 (each). After reading lots of helpful posts on these forums and elsewhere it was pretty obvious that to the letter of the law we were in the wrong. So we have long since settled.

This update though comes as the result of a dialog which has started between myself and senior management of EMT. In June I decided to take my family on the train and try again. I'll cut a medium story short, we again were going to travel to Nottingham from Beeston (making sure we had definitely obtained tickets before boarding this time!!). We never even made it to the platform this time because as we walked towards the station my daughter burst into floods of tears. She was incredibly upset that if we used the train again mummy would again get upset and cry. It was quite distressing for myself and my wife to witness to be honest. So we abandoned our journey, instead staying local for shopping in Beeston.

Now this played on my mind and I reread all (most ) of the EMT information on its website. It did not mention anything regarding what happens if you have no ticket and a Penalty Fare charge is not applied, ie. the you broke the law/by-law and we might prosecute you bit. I initiated a dialog with EMT as I feel that this information should be well documented as an official procedure and that as a result of myself and my wife not understanding the rules effectively my daughter is now unlikely to be travelling and enjoying the feeling of travel by train any time soon. And because of my own feeling towards what happened I am unlikely to try and persuade her to travel by train.

What came back from EMT quite surprised me in that they stated that the correct procedures at the station may not have been followed. I'm not sure what this means as from my understanding the RPO's only have to think you'll leave without paying your fare (if they weren't there) and they can report you for potential prosecution. The upshot of this is that myself and my wife are scheduled to have a face to face meeting with a representative of EMT in a couple of weeks time where they would like to discuss what appears to have gone wrong and what they are putting in place to make sure to the best of their ability it does not happen again. To my mind there is a distinction here between people who have tried most available and reasonable (there's a lovely legal word ) means to obtain a ticket but have failed and alighted at their destination anyway without a ticket and those who attempt to try it on. The only chance to argue your case is in front of a magistrate, and for us as we were being prosecuted under the by-law offence a potential fine of approx. £400 (??) each! Weighing that against two lots of £70 there is no choice to make.

Kudos from me to EMT for listening and appearing to being amiable about clarifying the procedures. It is surely a rare occurrence but it is traumatic when you get unwittingly caught out and anything that can be done to attempt to mitigate before the event is surely a good thing for all concerned. I know EMT would get the settlement and not the fine so there's a revenue issue here but I think that should be left to one side.

I don't know what others feel about this. Like I said, we have long since accepted our fate and coughed up the settlement so this is more about getting the message across to passengers that they should never board a train without a ticket (where ticketing services are available) even if before they have been able to buy a ticket on the train. A message that seems to have been lost because of the ability to, under normal circumstances, purchase a ticket on board.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm pleased to learn of this outcome. I can guess who it is you will be meeting, and if I'm correct, and there's no more to this incident, then I'd expect you will be satisfied with the outcome. Please don't post people's names on here, but please do accept the proposal to meet and to talk frankly. Thanks

 

[Qwerty133]

Good to hear EMT are taking this seriously. From what I've read on here there's obviously some knowledgable and helpful people somewhere within EMT, and it's good to see that one of said people is happy to meat you face to face.
Just a shame said people can't get the attitudes of a minority of frontline staff to change, but some staff do seem to be getting much better at customer service.
Sadly I still believe that this kind of issue will continue, and my opinion won't be changing while I continue to see notices like one I saw last week, or posters that are years out of date continue to be displayed at major staffed stations.

 

[marvster0681]

Just a small update on our experience as posted in this thread.

This morning myself and my wife met with EMT. I believe it was an honest and open discussion from both sides and was very constructive. The main waypoints of our experience (unavailability of TVM on Platform 1, unexpected closure of ticket office, the volume of passengers on the service [mainly football fans] and the unavailability to purchase of tickets on board) have been validated and accepted where appropriate.

Whilst I will not go into specifics, I am delighted that EMT have decided to review their literature and shall be updating and clarifying in due course. Whilst in the main this information will be read after an event, it should help clarify the circumstances and the seriousness of the action of travelling without a valid ticket. I am also pleased that they will also be looking into the processes applied by the RPOs at the time of stoppage.

Well done EMT for listening and taking a suitable course of action. Naturally any company must attempt to vigorously protect its revenue but not at the carte blanche expense of customer experience.

 

[bb21]

That is great news. Thank you also for taking your time to do something constructive as opposed to just moaning away.

It would be interesting to see how EMT deliver their promises.

 

[Wolfie]

That IS generally positive.

Of course, it still leaves the OP £140 minus the original fare in arrears.....

 

[bb21]

Ah, I had remembered from somewhere that he was refunded the amount of the settlement.

It is a shame, really, especially given that EMT acknowledged their circumstances.

 

[talltim]

And, of course, he is left with a child that cries at the thought of going on a train.

 

[marvster0681]

I appreciate I have been a little vague regarding the specifics (as the original intent was to seek an examination of the website literature and the actions of EMT employees) but to cover the previous couple of posts I would like to say I am very happy with EMT's conduct with respect to all aspects of our entire case.

Due to the respect we have been shown by EMT I am certainly now willing to engage my daughter with the railway again in due course. Something which would most definitely not have happened had the meeting not have occurred. Again credit to EMT.

 

[bb21]

Glad you found the outcome satisfactory. I am genuinely pleased for you.