MG11 rather than Penalty Fare

[marvster0681]

Hello everyone,

I am seeking some advice regarding two MG11's that have been given to myself and my wife for a journey we took last Saturday. Here is a brief-ish but full account.

We arrived at Beeston (Nottingham) station at around 10:40am in order to catch the 10:59am service to Nottingham. Upon arrival, the ticket office had a sign on the door stating that the office would be closed until 11am. My wife went off to the ticket machine on Platform 1 while I waited with our two children on the platform. She came back a couple of minutes later as the ticket machine was out of order. After a short discussion she crossed the foot bridge to use the ticket machine on Platform 2. Unfortunately, as this was the only ticketing service at Beeston that morning the queue was 5 parties deep. After moving two places up the queue in 10 minutes the train arrived on Platform 1 to Nottingham so she nipped back and we boarded the train with no ticket expecting that as seems usual for most journeys I have taken on rail recently the conductor would pass through the train and we could buy a ticket. Upon boarding the train it was immediately apparent that the conductor would probably not be coming through the train as it was pretty much standing room only due to football fans travelling from Derby to Nottingham for the match. At this point, while my wife waited with our son (who's 2) myself and my daughter attempted to move to the back of the train to see the conductor (I seem to recall him being at the back as we boarded at Beeston). Due to the nature of the people on the train (foul language, alcohol being drunk and rowdy attitude) my daughter became scared so we headed back to an empty spot near the doors. At this point I was thinking we could seek out a representative of EMT at Nottingham station, explain what happened and purchase a ticket for presentation on exit. When we disembarked the train we headed out following a sign for "Ticket Machine", unfortunately, the ticket machine was behind a row of RPI's checking tickets. After stating to one RPI that we needed a ticket machine for our journey my wife and I were separated and immediately cautioned. I had assumed that we were being issued with notice for a Penalty Fare but after telephoning EMT this morning it seems we are following the route of potentially being prosecuted should we not settle.

The main point I would like to raise with this forum are these:

Is it correct that we are now past any appeals process? From what I had been told, we may get an opportunity to write to EMT stating our reasons for travel with no ticket but this is only so they can judge whether to prosecute rather than being an appeal of the circumstances.

Second, while we were short two adult tickets, and as such both myself and my wife were issued with MG11's do the TOC's merge these offences together. After all, we were travelling as a family.

Third, the language of the RPI was such that it lead me to believe that there would be an appeals process. As such, in her note book I only wrote down (my statement) a much cut down version of the above. If I'd have known that ultimately, my only defence to this would be in court (with all the associated risks [fine/Criminal Record]) I would have certainly written down more information at the time. I even asked her what the scope/purpose of what I was being asked to write down was and was given the answer it was anything I'd like to write down. Not helpful at all. Now, when I write my letter and full account, it could be construed that I have embellished what I wrote under caution and have lied under caution which is certainly not the case. Any guidance/advice? I have never been in trouble with the police so have never had to give information in this way before.

Naturally no upstanding citizens want a criminal record, and as such if we admit guilt and settle pre-court do we both still get criminal records? In other words are we past the point of no return on that score? If so, then in my mind I would rather fight the case (even though the fine might be higher and we'd have to pay costs). I would be willing to risk the extra money against not having a criminal record.

All posts appreciated, unfortunately this was my daughters first trip on a train and didn't exactly go to plan!

 

[yorkie]

Naturally no upstanding citizens want a criminal record, and as such if we admit guilt and settle pre-court do we both still get criminal records?

If you settle out of court, then it never gets to court, and so there's no record.

A Regulation of Railways Act prosecution (which requires intent) really shouldn't succeed, given what you've said above.

A Byelaw 18 prosecution doesn't require intent, but carries no criminal record.

I'd like to see you fight this. EMT are out of order, and not by any means for the first time that I've seen...:roll:

 

[marvster0681]

A Regulation of Railways Act prosecution (which requires intent) really shouldn't succeed, given what you've said above.

A Byelaw 18 prosecution doesn't require intent, but carries no criminal record.

Hi Yorkie, thanks for the reply, would it be Section 5 of the RoR Act that we may have fallen foul of?

Understandably I am doing a lot of reading around this area and I would love to fight this but weighing a CR against a perhaps £100 settlement is really a no-brainer. Which is unfortunate as if more people fought these cases (when they really do have a case as I believe we do) perhaps the regulations/advise/discretionary powers to RPO/I's would be tweaked.

I will await the letter(s) for the offense under which they are going to apply.

 

[34D]

Given that you are clearly not a seasoned fare dodger, I would start writing a polite letter to David Horne, Managing Director of EMT, setting out all the foregoing and signed by you and your wife.

Ensure the letter states that you would like to pay the fare due (speaking of which, how did you return from Nottingham and what ticket did you buy).

This is a case that should be dropped in my own view

 

[marvster0681]

Given that you are clearly not a seasoned fare dodger, I would start writing a polite letter to David Horne, Managing Director of EMT, setting out all the foregoing and signed by you and your wife.

Ensure the letter states that you would like to pay the fare due (speaking of which, how did you return from Nottingham and what ticket did you buy).

This is a case that should be dropped in my own view

34D thanks for your comments, we would have got return tickets but after the debacle on the outward journey we got the bus back instead. We only got the train as my daughter has been pestering us for ages to go by train. This is obviously a case involving "no valid ticket" rather than and "invalid ticket" so I think you are treated (rightly/wrongly) as a fare dodger regardless and ultimately although we asked to pay the fare to the RPO's it was too late. So we had no tickets anyway. Tbh my wife was so upset at being cautioned that we nearly got a taxi back home straight away outside the station.

Whilst writing to David Horne may help me feel better for taking some action I'm sure he or more likely his office would simply point me back at the EMT Prosecutions department?

 

[LateThanNever]

34D thanks for your comments, we would have got return tickets but after the debacle on the outward journey we got the bus back instead. We only got the train as my daughter has been pestering us for ages to go by train. This is obviously a case involving "no valid ticket" rather than and "invalid ticket" so I think you are treated (rightly/wrongly) as a fare dodger regardless and ultimately although we asked to pay the fare to the RPO's it was too late. So we had no tickets anyway. Tbh my wife was so upset at being cautioned that we nearly got a taxi back home straight away outside the station.

Whilst writing to David Horne may help me feel better for taking some action I'm sure he or more likely his office would simply point me back at the EMT Prosecutions department?

Doubt it - not if, as you are so appalled, you also send the same copy to your MP.

 

[cuccir]

It might be useful to quote EMT's passenger charter in your correspondence:

"Our aim is to serve you within three minutes at off-peak times and five minutes at peak times."

This isn't a legally binding target, but equally it would be a useful point to note and could contribute to a defence in court (not that I suspect this will reach that stage).

 

[Haywain]

It might have been better to have waited the one of the trains that were due 5 and 10 minutes later than 10:59. The lack of an hour of waiting for the next train does strengthen EMT's case a little.

 

[marvster0681]

It might have been better to have waited the one of the trains that were due 5 and 10 minutes later than 10:59. The lack of an hour of waiting for the next train does strengthen EMT's case a little.

In hindsight it would have been infinitely better to wait, very much agreed. However, what appears to have happened (and happens in most cases), if you attempt to exit with no ticket you are given an MG11 regardless of circumstances. Whilst it is my understanding that the RPO's have discretionary powers, the nominal stance is that you are showing an intent (by attempting to leave the station) to avoid paying the fare.

In our personal situation, we were actually attempting to find a representative of EMT in order to find out how to resolve the situation we found ourselves in.

 

[Fare-Cop]

In hindsight it would have been infinitely better to wait, very much agreed. However, what appears to have happened (and happens in most cases), if you attempt to exit with no ticket you are given an MG11 regardless of circumstances. Whilst it is my understanding that the RPO's have discretionary powers, the nominal stance is that you are showing an intent (by attempting to leave the station) to avoid paying the fare.

In our personal situation, we were actually attempting to find a representative of EMT in order to find out how to resolve the situation we found ourselves in.

Do remember that whilst the RPI may have exercised discretion with regard to whether you were reported or not, and we only have one side of the interaction here, it is not the RPI who will decide whether a prosecution is brought.

I am not suggesting that your story isn't exactly what you perceive happened, but I am pointing out that the RPI may have a different perception, hence the report.

If there was a sign at the ticket office as you describe and if there was limited machine availability because of failures, then EMT should be aware of that as all these facilities are monitored and they should act accordingly

 

[marvster0681]

Do remember that whilst the RPI may have exercised discretion with regard to whether you were reported or not, and we only have one side of the interaction here, it is not the RPI who will decide whether a prosecution is brought.

I am not suggesting that your story isn't exactly what you perceive happened, but I am pointing out that the RPI may have a different perception, hence the report.

If there was a sign at the ticket office as you describe and if there was limited machine availability because of failures, then EMT should be aware of that as all these facilities are monitored and they should act accordingly

Fare-cop, again thank you for the comment. As I mentioned in reply earlier I will await the letter from EMT as this will be post review of the up until now established facts, from both sides. Including unmanned ticket office and ooo ticket machine.

However, the problem I have with this route is that the only official avenue of appeal is to go through the courts which carries the enhanced penalties of fine, fees and a potential criminal record. This does not seem fair.

 

[island]

When you chose to join a train without a valid ticket despite there being functioning ticket facilities available at your departure station, you committed a criminal offence. Not arriving in enough time to use the ticket facilities is not an excuse.

As mentioned, EMT will in all likelihood be willing to settle the matter on payment of an enhanced fee in recognition of the administrative costs incurred and the costs involved in detecting ticketless travel.

I am not sure why 34D feels that this is a matter of such importance as to justify cutting out all the usual methods of raising an issue with a company. It is my experience that a small number of people feel so arrogant and self-important about their customer complaints, but I am sure marvster0681 isn't one of them.

 

[Squaddie]

When you chose to join a train without a valid ticket despite there being functioning ticket facilities available at your departure station, you committed a criminal offence. Not arriving in enough time to use the ticket facilities is not an excuse.

If marvster0681's account is truthful (and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that it isn't), he and his family did arrive in plenty of time to buy a ticket.

It is hardly his fault if a ticket office is closed when it's supposed to be open and the ticket machine is out of order.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If there was a sign at the ticket office as you describe and if there was limited machine availability because of failures, then EMT should be aware of that as all these facilities are monitored and they should act accordingly

What if EMT were unaware that the ticket office was closed, the sign having been placed unofficially? There are stories on the forum about booking office staff elsewhere shirking their duties.

 

[jon0844]

If marvster0681's account is truthful (and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that it isn't), he and his family did arrive in plenty of time to buy a ticket.

It is hardly his fault if a ticket office is closed when it's supposed to be open and the ticket machine is out of order.

Yeah, given the circumstances (usual disclaimer; assuming the story is totally truthful) I'd include the time taken to walk all over the station looking for working TVMs to be part of the total time trying to get a ticket.

This is definitely a case where some discretion can, and should, be shown.

 

[455driver]

What if EMT were unaware that the ticket office was closed, the sign having been placed unofficially? There are stories on the forum about booking office staff elsewhere shirking their duties.

:roll::roll:
Or dealing with something else!

But then, all railstaff are lazy twits in your eyes arent they!

 

[richw]

Yeah, given the circumstances (usual disclaimer; assuming the story is totally truthful) I'd include the time taken to walk all over the station looking for working TVMs to be part of the total time trying to get a ticket.

This is definitely a case where some discretion can, and should, be shown.

Would a normal traveller know there is a machine on a certain platform- platform 2 in this case if they are not travelling from that platform so wouldn't have reason to go to that platform just to look in case there is a TVM present.
Its unreasonable to expect a passenger to go trawling all the platforms searching for a TVM because the ticket office is closed and the TVM on their platform is out of order.

 

[jon0844]

Would a normal traveller know there is a machine on a certain platform- platform 2 in this case if they are not travelling from that platform so wouldn't have reason to go to that platform just to look in case there is a TVM present.
Its unreasonable to expect a passenger to go trawling all the platforms searching for a TVM because the ticket office is closed and the TVM on their platform is out of order.

Indeed. My wife asked at Cheshunt station for the balance on her Oyster card on Sunday, noticing the machine inside didn't have an Oyster reader, and was told she could get it this one time - but had to actually use the machine outside for checking balances from then on.

The lady was quite rude given the fact that my wife hadn't seen the TVM inset within the security fencing (and would have clearly used it had she known, as it would have saved queueing for a few minutes to ask for something she could have got in 10 seconds) and had jumped to the conclusion that my wife would obviously know where all the machines were that were able to read an Oyster card.

 

[PermitToTravel]

:roll::roll:
Or dealing with something else!

But then, all railstaff are lazy twits in your eyes arent they!

But I didn't mention that because that would be completely unremarkable - head office would know in such a situation, and (theoretically at least) it would be known that the booking office was not at that time an opportunity to purchase a ticket (of course, the open TVM still was).

Were the booking office staff lying to the company about their availability, then it is entirely possible that the prosecution department would think the OP to be lying.

:roll:

 

[34D]

But I didn't mention that because that would be completely unremarkable - head office would know in such a situation, and (theoretically at least) it would be known that the booking office was not at that time an opportunity to purchase a ticket (of course, the open TVM still does).

Were the booking office staff lying to the company about their availability, then it is entirely possible that the prosecution department would think the OP to be lying.

:roll:

This is a legitimate concern.

Speedy contact with the company may allow CCTV to be inspected to verify

 

[455driver]

I can just see the headlines now-


Ticket office staff in trouble for taking a dump!

Or would you prefer them to sh#t on the floor? :roll:
Oh I know, lets install commodes instead of seats behind the counter!

 

[radamfi]

The moral here appears to be: never board a train without a ticket at a station with a staffed ticket office during ticket office opening hours, even if the office is temporarily closed. In these circumstances, the station is effectively closed to non-ticket holders.

 

[tony6499]

Seems that things don't add up, did you try to exit without attempting to buy a ticket ? Did you ask to buy a ticket and explain the situation before trying to pass the RPI's ?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I can just see the headlines now-


Ticket office staff in trouble for taking a dump!

Or would you prefer them to sh#t on the floor? :roll:
Oh I know, lets install commodes instead of seats behind the counter!

Please try engaging eyeballs, brain, or both, as appropriate. As stated above, the issues only arise when booking office staff lie to their company about their availability, which should not be necessary if they are just dispatching trains/counting cash/defecating.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem if not for the possibility of innocent people ending up with criminal records.

 

[neilmc]

The moral here surely is to go on the bus instead, you'll pay your fare at the door and won't get defrauded in this way.

And go to the press, having frightened little kids involved will spice the story enough and hopefully EMT can be made to grovel. Nothing to lose if you're an honest law-abiding person.

 

[jon0844]

Please try engaging eyeballs, brain, or both, as appropriate. As stated above, the issues only arise when booking office staff lie to their company about their availability, which should not be necessary if they are just dispatching trains/counting cash/defecating.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem if not for the possibility of innocent people ending up with criminal records.

Staff are entitled to breaks, and usually put up a notice in the window to say 'back in 15 minutes' or whatever - but it is vital that everyone knows when these breaks are, especially revenue staff.

We've heard on this forum from people like RJ that have seen blinds down but the computers still logged in when staff have decided to finish a bit early for the day. Presumably any RPI checking would believe the station was still open to sell tickets, which is going to cause all sorts of problems.

I do wonder if break times should be advertised within the opening hours (and therefore fixed), as not all tickets can be purchased from a TVM and so you might at least be able to make sure you don't arrive there during that time.

Obviously a quick toilet break wouldn't need to be scheduled, but in most cases this isn't going to take 15 minutes or more.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Obviously a quick toilet break wouldn't need to be scheduled, but in most cases this isn't going to take 15 minutes or more.

It doesn't need to be scheduled, but as you said, revenue staff still need to know if a ticket office closes

 

[island]

If marvster0681's account is truthful (and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that it isn't), he and his family did arrive in plenty of time to buy a ticket.

It is hardly his fault if a ticket office is closed when it's supposed to be open and the ticket machine is out of order.

The law does not provide an excuse or defence that the ticketing facilities were too busy.

If you were making a moral argument then of course I agree but legally based on the information available the fact remains that an offence was committed.

 

[yorkie]

...If you were making a moral argument then of course I agree but legally based on the information available the fact remains that an offence was committed.

A byelaw offence, at worst, based on what the OP has said. But such a byelaw offence is supposedly meant to be dealt with by a Penalty Fare, in a Penalty Fare area. Except this appears to have been an XC service, so EMT couldn't do that. I wonder if EMT are threatening XC/NT passengers with prosecution while giving their own Penalty Fares...?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, the problem I have with this route is that the only official avenue of appeal is to go through the courts which carries the enhanced penalties of fine, fees and a potential criminal record. This does not seem fair.

If EMT continue to reject your case, and if Passenger Focus don't support you, then if EMT decide to prosecute, I agree that the courts would be where it gets decided. But it's well worth contacting EMT and Passenger Focus beforehand. I'd contact Passenger Focus today, the commitments by EMT in their Charter about the time it will take to be served should be a key part of your argument.

 

[Jay]

Complain to the DFT maybe about the closed ticket office?

EMT have been pulled about this before,

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/210780/emt-breach-notice-17-june-2013.pdf