MG11 - help with response please

[maximus1999]

Good morning all,

I was hoping you might be able to help me out with my response to avoid further trouble!

I received a letter from Southeastern this morning following me receiving an MG11 for suspected fare evasion on the 20th Feb. Just to explain what happened: I basically use contactless to tap in/out everyday when I'm going up to London from Elmstead Woods, which I have done amlost every day for the past 2 year for work, but my contactless card kept flashing up red the weekend prior leading to me borrowing a friend's card on the journey home a couple of days before.

I had a job interview near London Bridge that morning of the 20th Feb and was rushing up to the station to make the train (completely my fault for not leaving myself enough time) and only remembered about my card issue as I was near the station. I bought a ticket on the Trainline app (which I used at uni loads but not for a couple of years in London) to save myself some time at the machine but without really thinking stupidly bought it from New Cross > London Bridge (return) because that's where I was heading on the way back from the interview. Honestly a really dumb mistake to make but I only really realised once I was already on the train.

When I got to the barriers at London Bridge it flashed red on the gate and I was asked to show my railcard - the revenue protection officer then noticed I had printed it at Elmstead but the ticket was valid from New Cross. I explained what had happened and apologised, answered their questions and rushed off to the interview. I only realised how serious this was when I spoke to another revenue officer on the way back from the interview at London Bridge. She told me to definitely describe how I was rushing to an interview as it explained why the mistake happened and to send a copy of my bank statements highlighting that I always made the journey using contactless when I receive the letter.

I have no previous history of anything like this and it was legitimately a one time mistake. Could you give any feedback on my response below.

Dear Sir/Madam

CASE REF: xxx

I am writing in reply to your recent letter. I would like to sincerely apologise for travelling between Elmstead Woods and London Bridge without a valid ticket covering the whole journey.

This is a journey I’ve completed more or less three times per week in the past 2 years, both to and from work, and have always paid the full fare via contactless card using my iPhone.

Over the weekend prior to the incident I had experience a couple of payment issues with contactless but I only remembered I would require a paper ticket just as I was rushing up to Elmstead Woods station, roughly a minute before the train was due to arrive.

I was rushing to a job interview that morning and was quite stressed as a result, and rushing didn’t help that at all. I hastily bought a ticket on the Trainline app on the station approach to save time at the ticket machine and printed it at Elmstead Woods just making the train. When purchasing the ticket I made a mistake in buying a return ticket from New Cross rather than Elmstead Woods as I was returning to New Cross on my way back from the interview later that day.

I was stopped by a revenue officer at London Bridge where I admitted I had printed the ticket at Elmstead Woods but had made a mistake and offered to pay the correct fare on the spot.

I can assure you this was an honest mistake due to me running late for the train and mainly focusing on the interview, however I am deeply sorry for not ensuring I had purchased the correct ticket. I have learned a very important lesson from this incident and will always take time to make sure I have tapped in correctly or purchased the correct ticket in future.

I would be very much grateful if you would allow me an opportunity to pay the correct full price fare for my journey along with any administrative costs associated with dealing with this incident.

I have since accepted the job offer that came from this interview and I am sure you will understand my desire to avoid any legal action and the resultant consequences that may follow.

I have also attached some bank statements from the past 2 years that indicate me paying the full fare from Elmstead Woods to London Bridge whenever I went into the office (which was located near Mansion House).

Thank you for your assistance and I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I guess you can see how it looks when what you describe as your mistake entailed buying a ticket from the last station your train stopped at before London Bridge.

A mistake which presumably wouldn’t have been possible if simply buying the ticket from the machine. In practice, does it really take longer to buy a straightforward ticket than it does to collect one already purchased online?

Others will advise you on the letter etc. But I’m afraid that regardless of what was going on in your mind at the time (and only you know that), this incident and your explanation are a pretty convincing facsimile of a classic case of deliberate short-faring.

 

[maximus1999]

I guess you can see how it looks when what you describe as your mistake entailed buying a ticket from the last station your train stopped at before London Bridge.

A mistake which presumably wouldn’t have been possible if simply buying the ticket from the machine. In practice, does it really take longer to buy a straightforward ticket than it does to collect one already purchased online?

Others will advise you on the letter etc. But I’m afraid that regardless of what was going on in your mind at the time (and only you know that), this incident and your explanation are a pretty convincing facsimile of a classic case of deliberate short-faring.

Thanks for the response! Yes I do agree, it doesn't look great and I totally see why they pulled me up for it. With regards to trainline vs machine you're probably right - In my head I'd thought it might be quicker but that was mainly me panicking as I was running late - in reality I should have just left myself more time.

I'm hoping that by showing (this incident aside) I always pay with contactless with my bank statements they'll understand. In addition, I have since worked out that the price difference between Elmstead and New Cross was less than £2 with my railcard so I hope they take this into account and recognise my mistake (I won't mention that in the letter as it sounds awfully patronising).

 

[Haywain]

Good morning all,

I was hoping you might be able to help me out with my response to avoid further trouble!

I received a letter from Southeastern this morning following me receiving an MG11 for suspected fare evasion on the 20th Feb. Just to explain what happened: I basically use contactless to tap in/out everyday when I'm going up to London from Elmstead Woods, which I have done amlost every day for the past 2 year for work, but my contactless card kept flashing up red the weekend prior leading to me borrowing a friend's card on the journey home a couple of days before.

I had a job interview near London Bridge that morning of the 20th Feb and was rushing up to the station to make the train (completely my fault for not leaving myself enough time) and only remembered about my card issue as I was near the station. I bought a ticket on the Trainline app (which I used at uni loads but not for a couple of years in London) to save myself some time at the machine but without really thinking stupidly bought it from New Cross > London Bridge (return) because that's where I was heading on the way back from the interview. Honestly a really dumb mistake to make but I only really realised once I was already on the train.

When I got to the barriers at London Bridge it flashed red on the gate and I was asked to show my railcard - the revenue protection officer then noticed I had printed it at Elmstead but the ticket was valid from New Cross. I explained what had happened and apologised, answered their questions and rushed off to the interview. I only realised how serious this was when I spoke to another revenue officer on the way back from the interview at London Bridge. She told me to definitely describe how I was rushing to an interview as it explained why the mistake happened and to send a copy of my bank statements highlighting that I always made the journey using contactless when I receive the letter.

I have no previous history of anything like this and it was legitimately a one time mistake. Could you give any feedback on my response below.

Dear Sir/Madam

CASE REF: xxx

I am writing in reply to your recent letter. I would like to sincerely apologise for travelling between Elmstead Woods and London Bridge without a valid ticket covering the whole journey.

This is a journey I’ve completed more or less three times per week in the past 2 years, both to and from work, and have always paid the full fare via contactless card using my iPhone.

Over the weekend prior to the incident I had experience a couple of payment issues with contactless but I only remembered I would require a paper ticket just as I was rushing up to Elmstead Woods station, roughly a minute before the train was due to arrive.

I was rushing to a job interview that morning and was quite stressed as a result, and rushing didn’t help that at all. I hastily bought a ticket on the Trainline app on the station approach to save time at the ticket machine and printed it at Elmstead Woods just making the train. When purchasing the ticket I made a mistake in buying a return ticket from New Cross rather than Elmstead Woods as I was returning to New Cross on my way back from the interview later that day.

I was stopped by a revenue officer at London Bridge where I admitted I had printed the ticket at Elmstead Woods but had made a mistake and offered to pay the correct fare on the spot.

I can assure you this was an honest mistake due to me running late for the train and mainly focusing on the interview, however I am deeply sorry for not ensuring I had purchased the correct ticket. I have learned a very important lesson from this incident and will always take time to make sure I have tapped in correctly or purchased the correct ticket in future.

I would be very much grateful if you would allow me an opportunity to pay the correct full price fare for my journey along with any administrative costs associated with dealing with this incident.

I have since accepted the job offer that came from this interview and I am sure you will understand my desire to avoid any legal action and the resultant consequences that may follow.

I have also attached some bank statements from the past 2 years that indicate me paying the full fare from Elmstead Woods to London Bridge whenever I went into the office (which was located near Mansion House).

Thank you for your assistance and I look forward to hearing from you.

Your letter looks fine to me but I think you should move the line asking for a settlement to the end, after the line about bank statements. It's far too important to be buried in the middle of the letter, and you should look at this from the perspective of someone speed reading - they will look for the bit at the start admitting the offence and the bit at the end asking about the desired outcome, and may gloss over for the stuff in the middle which is less important too them.

 

[spag23]

I have also attached some bank statements from the past 2 years that indicate me paying the full fare

The word "some" (my bold) may strike the company as being selective. If I were the investigator, I'd need convincing that ALL the OP's documented journeys were correctly paid; ie no suspicious or unaccountable gaps.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is unlucky - as if you had the misfortune to have selected 'New Clee' instead of 'New Cross' in error, when buying the ticket, the return fare of c£256 New Clee to London Bridge might have been more than SE Trains may offer to settle this case.

Worth being aware that they may well check your ticket purchase history to see if other similar errors have been made, though I am not sure that if they find tickets purchased in error from stations further away from London Bridge than Elmstead Woods that they will offer any refunds.

But more seriously, @Haywain 's advice is spot on - when I did a job that handled lots of correspondence I would typically read the first and last lines as an initial way of sifting stuff ('what is this about' / 'what are they asking for').

Hopefully you will have a good chance of getting this sorted. Good idea to show evidence statements of correct purchasing history as you intend to do.

 

[some bloke]

I made a mistake in buying a return ticket from New Cross...I admitted I had printed the ticket at Elmstead Woods but had made a mistake...I can assure you this was an honest mistake

But you can't truthfully assure them what you did overall was just an honest mistake, unless you always (including when you approached the barrier) intended to ensure you paid the correct amount. And you haven't said anything to that effect.

I only really realised once I was already on the train.

When I got to the barriers at London Bridge it flashed red on the gate

It looks like you wouldn't have paid if you hadn't been stopped, and that you're guilty of the more serious offence:

"Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

Regulation of Railways Act 1889
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

What you write may be influenced by exactly what you said at the time.

Make sure everything you write is accurate.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

The fact that you seem to be guilty of the more serious offence doesn't mean you'll be prosecuted, even for a more minor offence. It's just that you need to be clear in your own mind about what you did, and make sure you are giving an accurate impression.

The company may not like you saying it was an honest mistake buying the ticket, but avoiding the question of whether it should have occurred to you later that you were now travelling on the wrong ticket. You need to be mindful of what you actually did, and the fact that where someone intends to avoid a fare, an original honest mistake buying the wrong ticket is at best mitigation - and not really much mitigation.

 

[island]

Single and Anytime Day Return to London Terminals are on the quick fares on the ticket machine and buying one takes two taps (four with a Railcard) and then the payment screen. And there's a staffed booking office too. Collecting an online ticket is 11 taps, to say nothing of the amount of time taken to use the app or booking site itself.

So let's lose the pretence that this had anything to do with saving time. You tried to cheat the system and you got caught.

Southeastern are very willing to settle out of court assuming you're not a repeat offender. If you feel you wish to submit evidence of having paid in the past by contactless, I'd suggest sending them a print off of your contactless payment history from the TfL site.

If your contactless card is still being rejected, you should give TfL a ring to sort it out.

 

[Kilopylae]

Single and Anytime Day Return to London Terminals are on the quick fares on the ticket machine and buying one takes two taps (four with a Railcard) and then the payment screen. And there's a staffed booking office too. Collecting an online ticket is 11 taps, to say nothing of the amount of time taken to use the app or booking site itself.

So let's lose the pretence that this had anything to do with saving time. You tried to cheat the system and you got caught.

I don't think we should assume bad faith, not least because our hope is to assist the OP.

For someone who is not used to using an old-fashioned ticket machine, it is not surprising for them to assume it will be clunky and slow. Plus, buying a ticket on one's phone allows one to start the process before arrival at the station - again, for someone who doesn't really know how many taps each option will entail, it makes intuitive sense that just collecting a ticket is faster than programming in the origin, destination, Railcard, et al.

But you can't truthfully assure them what you did overall was just an honest mistake

If someone is travelling from Elmstead to London Bridge to New Cross, then getting their wires crossed when they're panicking/rushing and stressed about a job interview (and perhaps not familiar with buying tickets?) and putting in New Cross return is an honest mistake. Apologies OP, I wasn't reading carefully enough - stick to @some bloke's advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

If someone is travelling from Elmstead to London Bridge to New Cross, then getting their wires crossed when they're panicking/rushing and stressed about a job interview (and perhaps not familiar with buying tickets?) and putting in New Cross return is an honest mistake.

The point is the OP says they realised on the train that they had the wrong ticket but also tried to exit the station without payment, at which point they were caught. It seems relatively clear from their own explanation that this was an attempt to evade the fare, if not at the outset then certainly at the time they attempted to exit with a ticket which was they knew not to be valid. There was no attempt to pay the correct fare at any point.

In any case I think @some bloke's advice is sound and is best followed.

 

[some bloke]

If someone is travelling from Elmstead to London Bridge to New Cross, then getting their wires crossed when they're panicking/rushing and stressed about a job interview (and perhaps not familiar with buying tickets?) and putting in New Cross return is an honest mistake.

Yes - that's true by definition. I'm talking about intention to avoid a fare after that.

 

[Kilopylae]

The point is the OP says they realised on the train that they had the wrong ticket but also tried to exit the station without payment, at which point they were caught.

Ah, sorry - missed that!

 

[Haywain]

Whether the OP made what some of us consider to be an honest mistake or not, all the essential details are covered in the proposed letter. The OP has accepted they did wrong, apologised for it and asked if they could settle out of court. That is really all that the train operator is going to be interested in, so further discussion of whether it was a mistake or a deliberate pre-meditated action is all rather pointless.

 

[maximus1999]

Hi all - I appreciate nobody has any reason to just blindly accept what I said at the start and that's absolutely fine! I know I didn't set out to fare evade and it was a mistake but some good points have been raised, as I was in a rush to the interview I did just go straight to the barriers and in hindsight I could have dealt with that differently.

I must say thank you to everyone for taking an interest in the matter! Frustratingly as my card has been replaced I can no longer access my records on the TFL app, but I'll make sure to go through my bank statements and highlight the journey over a reasonable period of time.

If anyone has any feedback/criticism of my response further to @Haywain 's advice I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks everyone

Also thank you @some bloke you raised a good point and I've taken that on board.

 

[maximus1999]

Hi all just providing an update on this case.

I was offered a settlement figure of £286.80 made up of the £21.80 fare avoided and £265 towards the investigation costs.

Although higher than expected I'm glad I can put this incident behind me.

Thanks for all of your incredibly helpful advice!

 

[Haywain]

Hi all just providing an update on this case.

I was offered a settlement figure of £286.80 made up of the £21.80 fare avoided and £265 towards the investigation costs.

Although higher than expected I'm glad I can put this incident behind me.

Thanks for all of your incredibly helpful advice!

Yes, it is a little bit steep but overall a good result. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[furlong]

We've seen Southeastern ask for excessive costs several times before on this forum and we've also seen people successfully get them lowered. People dealing with Southeastern shouldn't be frightened to attempt to negotiate.

 

[island]

We've seen Southeastern ask for excessive costs several times before on this forum and we've also seen people successfully get them lowered. People dealing with Southeastern shouldn't be frightened to attempt to negotiate.

Attempting to "negotiate" settlements runs a high risk of backfiring and being told the settlement is off, see you in court.