MG11 for wrong return ticket

[spark27]

Hi all,

On Saturday I travelled from Crewe to Liverpool Lime street with what I believed to be an open return ticket for a West Midlands Railway train I bought on the TrainLine app. After travelling back from Liverpool to Crewe on Sunday, once I reached the gate and went to scan my ticket the ticket said it was expired and I couldn’t access the QR code. At this point I thought the TrainLine app was messing up so I went to the lady at the gate to explain and ask what was happening and she showed me that I had actually bought an Off-Peak Day Return rather than an open return.

Obviously this was my mistake and I should have checked before boarding the train that my ticket was valid for the journey, but unfortunately I didn’t think to do this as I believed I had the right ticket.

The lady asked for my details and I gave my ID, she took a photo of my ticket on the app and printed out an MG11 witness statement for me explaining she needed to do this to let me out of the gate. I have never received a penalty fare before so I believed this was what was happening and I would receive a charge to pay. It’s only now after looking up what an MG11 is that I realise I could be prosecuted for this. Although it was a genuine mistake on my part I am happy to accept responsibility and pay the full ticket price and any admin fees, but I am really worried about the threat of prosecution and really don’t want to end up with a criminal record for this.

I was told I would get a letter within 21 days and be able to explain my side of the story there. She also let me know I could ring the number on my witness statement to explain the situation- would you recommend doing this or wait for the letter?

I’m also confused as the MG11 is issued by Avanti West Coast but my train was a West Midlands Railway train.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

Also, the lady looked at the other tickets I had purchased and saw that I had a refund in process for a single ticket from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street. I explained that when I bought the ticket originally I accidentally bought a single, so I immediately refunded and bought a return ticket instead. She was confused and took a photo of it as well, saying the train company will want to know why I was trying to refund a ticket, but later realised the ticket was for Saturday and I did have another valid ticket I bought for that journey.

She did end up deleting the photo of this pending refund from her statement but I’m not sure if she still mentioned this or if it has any bearing on the situation.

 

[SECR 65]

Welcome to the forum,

Thank you for explaining your situation so clearly as this will help us to advise you.


There isn't much you can do until the letter arrives: when it does, please upload it on here with personal details redacted. If there's no letter in about four months come back also and let us know.

Whilst you technically could be prosecuted, in practice it is unlikely if you cooperate with their enquiry. Most people are able to secure an out of court settlement which will be the cost of the anytime single fare for your journey plus an admin fee of up to a couple of hundred quid.

I'm sure others will know the answers to your other questions regarding the train operating company which you travelled on and Avanti which issued the MG11.

 

[island]

You should wait to hear from the train company, and post the letter here for advice, removing any personal information.

Avanti can pursue unpaid fares on behalf of other train companies, so nothing turns on that.

 

[AlterEgo]

An MG11 is a witness statement which would normally mean you were interviewed on the spot.

Were you interviewed under caution? That is, did she read you your rights, and did she ask questions and note them down? Did you answer the questions? Did you admit to travelling without a valid ticket?

Do not make representations by phone about the matter - this is a legal issue now as you are suspected of having committed an offence. Correspond only in writing and say nothing else in the meantime to Avanti or their agents.

 

[Jim]

This is a common issue with trainline, the screen at one point shows "open return", but when you later go to select ticket type, includes option of day return.

 

[spark27]

An MG11 is a witness statement which would normally mean you were interviewed on the spot.

Were you interviewed under caution? That is, did she read you your rights, and did she ask questions and note them down? Did you answer the questions? Did you admit to travelling without a valid ticket?

Do not make representations by phone about the matter - this is a legal issue now as you are suspected of having committed an offence. Correspond only in writing and say nothing else in the meantime to Avanti or their agents.

I don’t believe she read me my rights- would this be obvious? I left the conversation believing I may get a fine, but I was unaware I may be prosecuted. It just seemed like a normal conversation, and I was told she had to print the mg11 to let me out through the gate. I explained to her the situation, and she showed me that my return was only valid for the Saturday, so I realised during our conversation that my ticket was invalid. If I had known I was being interviewed under caution, I would have been much more careful with what I said. But since I went into it thinking the ticket was valid I said to her that I must have booked the return for the wrong day, and how the prices are typically the same, to which she replied yes or a few pounds difference. I also asked her a few times if I would receive a fine for this to which she said I could explain the situation once I received a letter.

I input my details onto her tablet thing which she took photos on and wrote some things down. I was asked to sign the mg11 to confirm my details where correct and what she had written was correct, but I was not shown what she wrote down and don’t remember any sort of formal questioning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

You should wait to hear from the train company, and post the letter here for advice, removing any personal information.

Avanti can pursue unpaid fares on behalf of other train companies, so nothing turns on that.

Thanks- she did say to me that if I don’t receive a letter within 21 days it is my responsibility to chase it up and remind them. Should I get in contact in that instance, or still wait to be contacted first?

 

[John R]

I don’t believe she read me my rights- would this be obvious? I left the conversation believing I may get a fine, but I was unaware I may be prosecuted. It just seemed like a normal conversation, and I was told she had to print the mg11 to let me out through the gate. I explained to her the situation, and she showed me that my return was only valid for the Saturday, so I realised during our conversation that my ticket was invalid. If I had known I was being interviewed under caution, I would have been much more careful with what I said. But since I went into it thinking the ticket was valid I said to her that I must have booked the return for the wrong day, and how the prices are typically the same, to which she replied yes or a few pounds difference. I also asked her a few times if I would receive a fine for this to which she said I could explain the situation once I received a letter.

I input my details onto her tablet thing which she took photos on and wrote some things down. I was asked to sign the mg11 to confirm my details where correct and what she had written was correct, but I was not shown what she wrote down and don’t remember any sort of formal questioning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==


Thanks- she did say to me that if I don’t receive a letter within 21 days it is my responsibility to chase it up and remind them. Should I get in contact in that instance, or still wait to be contacted first?

That’s wrong. It’s up to them to contact you. There’s nothing to be gained by trying to accelerate the process. So long as you gave them your correct address just wait.

 

[Haywain]

I don’t believe she read me my rights- would this be obvious?

It should be.

I was asked to sign the mg11 to confirm my details where correct and what she had written was correct, but I was not shown what she wrote down and don’t remember any sort of formal questioning.

Being asked to sign the notes suggests an interview under caution, and it doesn't require a particularly formal style of questioning. However, ultimately, very little rides on this - if, in due course, you are prosecuted it will almost certainly be for a byelaw offence which requires no proof of intent. This would be a strict liability offence and avoiding a guilty plea would rely on you proving that you held a valid ticket, which you didn't. Intent would need to be proved, by your words in an interview under caution or your actions, for a successful prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA) but the train operators appear to have completely lost any appetite for prosecutions of that nature as the Single Justice Procedure cannot be used and it is therefore more expensive and much less convenient for them.

 

[WesternLancer]

The general advice often given here may be of help to the OP for context and practical outline of what usually happens and how to deal with it - just to add to the specific and helpful advice already given above:


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[spark27]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice and information, I will post when I get my letter and will just have to be patient in the meantime.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know why I was issued an mg11 rather than a penalty fare? I’ve never received a penalty fare before so I don’t know the differences

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice and information, I will post when I get my letter and will just have to be patient in the meantime.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know why I was issued an mg11 rather than a penalty fare? I’ve never received a penalty fare before so I don’t know the differences

Penalty Fares can only be issued by train companies which issue them. They are a regulated scheme to civilly dispose of offences.

Avanti aren't a Penalty Fares operator, so they issued an MG11. For what it's worth I think this is a pathetic way to deal with a passenger.

 

[island]

They could, and probably should, have dealt with this by way of a UPFN.

 

[spark27]

Hi everyone, I have received a letter today. Will post a draft of my response once I’ve written it, but would be grateful for any tips on what I should say.

I’m also a bit confused as the letter insinuates the incident occurred on an avanti train, although it was a west midlands one. While I know the agent worked for avanti, it specifically says it happened on an avanti train. I had another return ticket for an avanti train that I realised I was going to miss on the Saturday while I was on the way to the station, so I had to get a ticket for the next train which was a West Midlands one, and the trains I travelled on both Saturday and Sunday were West Midlands. So I am wondering whether the lady potentially took a photo of my other avanti ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2026 ==

Hi everyone, I have received a letter today. Will post a draft of my response once I’ve written it, but would be grateful for any tips on what I should say.

I’m also a bit confused as the letter insinuates the incident occurred on an avanti train, although it was a west midlands one. While I know the agent worked for avanti, it specifically says it happened on an avanti train. I had another return ticket for an avanti train that I realised I was going to miss on the Saturday while I was on the way to the station, so I had to get a ticket for the next train which was a West Midlands one, and the trains I travelled on both Saturday and Sunday were West Midlands. So I am wondering whether the lady potentially took a photo of my other one?

Should I mention the other ticket in my response? Looking at it, I also made the mistake of buying an off-peak day return for that one, but as I said I didn’t use it or travel on an Avanti train.

 

[SECR 65]

I’m also a bit confused as the letter insinuates the incident occurred on an avanti train, although it was a west midlands one. While I know the agent worked for avanti, it specifically says it happened on an avanti train. I had another return ticket for an avanti train that I realised I was going to miss on the Saturday while I was on the way to the station, so I had to get a ticket for the next train which was a West Midlands one, and the trains I travelled on both Saturday and Sunday were West Midlands. So I am wondering whether the lady potentially took a photo of my other avanti ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2026 ==



Should I mention the other ticket in my response? Looking at it, I also made the mistake of buying an off-peak day return for that one, but as I said I didn’t use it or travel on an Avanti train.

It looks to me that the letter is a generic one. I wouldn't take much meaning from what it says about being on an Avanti train.

However, we should get the opinion of other forum members as to whether the fact you travelled on a WMT train and Avanti are investigating holds any weight.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone, I have received a letter today. Will post a draft of my response once I’ve written it, but would be grateful for any tips on what I should say.

I’m also a bit confused as the letter insinuates the incident occurred on an avanti train, although it was a west midlands one. While I know the agent worked for avanti, it specifically says it happened on an avanti train. I had another return ticket for an avanti train that I realised I was going to miss on the Saturday while I was on the way to the station, so I had to get a ticket for the next train which was a West Midlands one, and the trains I travelled on both Saturday and Sunday were West Midlands. So I am wondering whether the lady potentially took a photo of my other avanti ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2026 ==



Should I mention the other ticket in my response? Looking at it, I also made the mistake of buying an off-peak day return for that one, but as I said I didn’t use it or travel on an Avanti train.

Strikes me you could possibly reply and legitimately deny you have travelled on an Avanti train without a valid ticket and see what they say.

But I’m unsure if that’s wise

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2026 ==

It looks to me that the letter is a generic one. I wouldn't take much meaning from what it says about being on an Avanti train.

However, we should get the opinion of other forum members as to whether the fact you travelled on a WMT train and Avanti are investigating holds any weight.

So that’s the quality of the administration that they will no doubt charge the op for.
Too lazy to check records and get letters right imho.

 

[gray1404]

This is a ridiculous way to deal with the passenger who's made a genuine and obvious mistake. They should simply have sold a new ticket there and then.

We now know that Avanti are using the notorious and difficult company that is Transport investigations Limited. They are extremely difficult to deal with and often reject requests for an out of court settlement. It is often necessary to write back to them three times on average before they will agree to a settlement and often charge ridiculously high amounts.

So how to proceed here. The reality is you did not travel on Avanti West Coast as per their letter. They are asking you to account for that. On the other hand you know what they mean by the letter and this is that you traveled on the railway network and arrived at one of their managed stations without a valid ticket. There is a big difference between saying I am not the person who was stopped on the day and I did not get stopped travelling on Avanti West Coast.

 

[saismee]

For the record, Avanti do not do penalty fares as far as I am aware. They only sell a new ticket, issue an unpaid fare notice (a new ticket but more time to pay), or issue an MG11.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The wording of the letter is "on Avanti West Coast". Isn't this because the OP was stopped on Crewe station which is administered by Avanti West Coast? It does not allege that he travelled on an Avanti train. Avanti are dealing with it because they staff Crewe Station. The sad fact is that the OP did not hold a valid ticket for the trip they made. This combined with the fact that Avanti do not issue Penalty Fares leads to the present situation.
I think that the advice in post #9 is the right advice.

 

[Haywain]

The wording of the letter is "on Avanti West Coast". Isn't this because the OP was stopped on Crewe station which is administered by Avanti West Coast?

Exactly this.

 

[WesternLancer]

The wording of the letter is "on Avanti West Coast". Isn't this because the OP was stopped on Crewe station which is administered by Avanti West Coast? It does not allege that he travelled on an Avanti train. Avanti are dealing with it because they staff Crewe Station. The sad fact is that the OP did not hold a valid ticket for the trip they made. This combined with the fact that Avanti do not issue Penalty Fares leads to the present situation.
I think that the advice in post #9 is the right advice.

Yes, I suspect the OP should draft up something along the lines of the usually advised response as per post #9 (and plenty of examples on other threads) and then post that here for checking
That will be the first response to TIL who as mentioned may then require more responses before they agree to accept an out of court settlement request

Keep it short and focussed - (after all it may require further letters so more can be said later if needs be)

Apologise
Brief explanation of the mistake you made
Make it clear it was an unintentional error
Assure them it won't happen again
Ask them to let you resolve the matter by paying nay fare owed

 

[spotify95]

Hi everyone, I have received a letter today. Will post a draft of my response once I’ve written it, but would be grateful for any tips on what I should say.

Should I mention the other ticket in my response? Looking at it, I also made the mistake of buying an off-peak day return for that one, but as I said I didn’t use it or travel on an Avanti train.

Personally I would just stick to what has been mentioned in the first letter that you've received. I say first letter because, given that you're dealing with TIL (Transport Investigations Limited) they will almost certainly reply back to you stating that they see no reason why the matter should not be progressed further (this is typical of TIL). They may also bring up anything they've found in their 2nd letter.

There was one example not too long ago which featured Transport for Wales, who also use TIL. The person in question had to write to TIL a total of 3 times before a settlement was offered, which is surprisingly quite common with TIL. So don't be put off if they don't settle straightaway - persistence certainly seems to be key when dealing with TIL.

 

[spark27]

Hi all, thanks again for all the helpful advice.

Here is my draft response, I would be grateful for any tips if it needs improving:

Dear (caseworker’s name),

Reference:

Thank you for your letter dated 2nd June 2026. I am writing in response to explain my comments on the incident, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

I would like to apologise for travelling without the correct ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe on 31st May 2026. I understand that it is my responsibility to ensure I hold the correct ticket before travelling.

On 30th May, I purchased what I believed to be an Open Return ticket from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street for West Midlands Railway through the Trainline App. I then travelled back from Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe on a West Midlands Railway train the next day, but when I reached the ticket barriers at Crewe and attempted to scan my ticket, the app showed that the ticket had expired. I approached a member of staff voluntarily, believing I held a valid ticket and that there was an issue with the Trainline app. The member of staff explained I had actually purchased an Off-Peak Day Return ticket for 30th May, meaning my ticket was not valid for the return journey on Sunday 31st May.

This was a genuine mistake, however I fully accept I should have checked my ticket before travelling and I deeply regret that I did not. I have learned from this incident and in future I will always ensure I hold the correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train.

I am eager to resolve this matter and would be grateful for the chance to settle it without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and administration costs incurred.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my response.

Yours sincerely,

My name.

Should I include exact times of the trains I used, or reference numbers of my bookings? Is this enough detail? I was also instructed to reply on the reverse of the letter, so I was thinking of handwriting it. Would it be better to hand write or print my response with screenshots of my ticket?

Thanks

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, thanks again for all the helpful advice.

Here is my draft response, I would be grateful for any tips if it needs improving:

Dear (caseworker’s name),

Reference:

Thank you for your letter dated 2nd June 2026. I am writing in response to explain my comments on the incident, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

I would like to apologise for travelling without the correct ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe on 31st May 2026. I understand that it is my responsibility to ensure I hold the correct ticket before travelling.

On 30th May, I purchased what I believed to be an Open Return ticket from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street for West Midlands Railway through the Trainline App. I then travelled back from Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe on a West Midlands Railway train the next day, but when I reached the ticket barriers at Crewe and attempted to scan my ticket, the app showed that the ticket had expired. I approached a member of staff voluntarily, believing I held a valid ticket and that there was an issue with the Trainline app. The member of staff explained I had actually purchased an Off-Peak Day Return ticket for 30th May, meaning my ticket was not valid for the return journey on Sunday 31st May.

This was a genuine mistake, however I fully accept I should have checked my ticket before travelling and I deeply regret that I did not. I have learned from this incident and in future I will always ensure I hold the correct ticket for my journey before boarding the train.

I am eager to resolve this matter and would be grateful for the chance to settle it without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and administration costs incurred.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my response.

Yours sincerely,

My name.

Should I include exact times of the trains I used, or reference numbers of my bookings? Is this enough detail? I was also instructed to reply on the reverse of the letter, so I was thinking of handwriting it. Would it be better to hand write or print my response with screenshots of my ticket?

Thanks

If you type and attach your reply be sure to
A) write your full name address and ref number on the typed sheet.
B) sign the typed sheet
C) write on the reverse of their letter that you also will presumably need to send back ‘please see attached reply’
D) take a copy of every page you are sending back.

If you are posting it send it tracked postage from a post office so you can prove delivery if you need to. Save the tracking record showing delivery. Tracked 48 is probably sufficient but check their response deadline.

Draft looks ok. But wait eg 24 hours for others to comment whilst still allowing you to post it on Monday.

Not sure if you need to include train times and ticket ref numbers but I can’t see it would harm to do so if you wish.