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Provided you cooperate when written to, apologise, promise not to do it again, and ask very nicely for an out of court settlement, it would be very unusual for GTR to prosecute you, although I suppose there may be a very slightly higher chance given you have had a few penalty fares (one of which was completely wrong anyway, as others have noted, from the information you have given us about it
The story is really implausible to me for a number of reasons.
1. Why pick a seat in first class? Acknowledging that you knew it was first class and it wasn’t an error on that point.
2. When approached by the ticket inspector, why offer to pay for a first class ticket rather than acknowledging your error and moving to a standard seat?
3. You say the ticket inspector said they had been observing you “for a while”, so you must have been sat in the seat for a while rather than what is made out to be a short period?
4. You refer to several other penalty notices yet still make the decision to take a seat in first class? It’s not like you’ve been warned before.
If it sounds unusual to me, it certainly will to the rail company.
This is one for begging for forgiveness, not excuses, and hoping they’re kind enough to offer a settlement. I’ve not seen your proposed reply but you can strip back everything and just apologise and say you’ve learnt your lesson.
GTR will almost certainly settle out of court if you co-operate with them. Although you have come to their attention before I doubt being issued with a Penalty Fare that has been settled is going to have too much of an adverse impact.
DO NOT make any further contact with GTR until you receive their letter. When their letter arrives post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and we can assist with proof reading it for you.
GTR will almost certainly settle out of court if you co-operate with them. Although you have come to their attention before I doubt being issued with a Penalty Fare that has been settled is going to have too much of an adverse impact.
DO NOT make any further contact with GTR until you receive their letter. When their letter arrives post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with your draft reply and we can assist with proof reading it for you.
As long as you are confident they had your address correctly then sit tight and wait. Until your case has been processed and put on their system an enquiry would not locate it.
If all the toilets were out of order then it's the train company in the wrong. How on earth can they not provide a single usable toilet on a commuter train?
If all the toilets were out of order then it's the train company in the wrong. How on earth can they not provide a single usable toilet on a commuter train?
The fact that all the toilets were out of order didn't compel or entitle the OP to sit in a First Class seat, so I very much doubt that it will be seen as mitigation.
If all the toilets were out of order then it's the train company in the wrong. How on earth can they not provide a single usable toilet on a commuter train?
If all the toilets were out of order then it's the train company in the wrong. How on earth can they not provide a single usable toilet on a commuter train?
♂️ I thought there’s an issue on the whole train after I checked all 3 toilets. First class seemed odd to be a running service on this train while facilities weren’t fully working and just seemed like it’s a standard class train rather than anything else on top
Still, I know it was my mistake
I see mentions of the words ‘charge’ and ‘offence’ in a few posts. Do I need a solicitor for this?
I looked it up a bit and it looks like one of the ways it could end up is single justice which wouldn’t ultimately lead to a criminal record, fingers crossed
I looked it up a bit and it looks like one of the ways it could end up is single justice which wouldn’t ultimately lead to a criminal record, fingers crossed
That’s not true, a single justice procedure is simply a way of prosecuting some crimes. A criminal record is a criminal record, but Bylaw offences are simply recorded usually at the court rather than on the Police National Computer. They’re spent after a year.
That’s not true, a single justice procedure is simply a way of prosecuting some crimes. A criminal record is a criminal record, but Bylaw offences are simply recorded usually at the court rather than on the Police National Computer. They’re spent after a year.
I see, so then, no matter what, I’ll end up with a criminal record. I know one of the comments here was saying it is very unlikely to be prosecuted, but I’m preparing for the worse since it’s been so long and the MG11 isn’t here yet
I see, so then, no matter what, I’ll end up with a criminal record. I know one of the comments here was saying it is very unlikely to be prosecuted, but I’m preparing for the worse since it’s been so long and the MG11 isn’t here yet
No - you'll end up with a criminal record if this is disposed of in court. However it's highly likely that if you behave sensibly this will be ultimately disposed of with an out of court settlement and no reason for it to go to court. But you need to continue waiting for now.
No - you'll end up with a criminal record if this is disposed of in court. However it's highly likely that if you behave sensibly this will be ultimately disposed of with an out of court settlement and no reason for it to go to court. But you need to continue waiting for now.
On some trains first class is exactly the same as standard class, except for the fact that it says first class on it. This is part of the reason why Southeastern and others abandoned offering any first class at all. However that's neither here nor there for the purpose of your case unfortunately. It's still necessary to hold a first class ticket.
By travelling in 1st class without a valid ticket you've committed a criminal offence. GTR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. Prosecutions for this sort of thing are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to take into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.
If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:
- A fine based on your income, normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided
If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.
The good news is that GTR will normally offer an out of court settlement in cases like this as long as you co-operate with them and haven't come to their attention before. An out of court settlement basically means you pay them som emoney and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying a settlement will feel like paying a fine but technically it's not a fine - a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment upon conviction. You won't have a conviction if you pay a settlement.
The first part of the process is that GTR will write to you saying they have received a report, are considering prosecuting but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. The issue at hand is that you haven't yet received a letter from GTR. As long as you gave the inspector your correct contact details, it's not in your interests to chase up GTR - if they want to prosecute they must 'lay papers before the court' within six months of the date of the offence. It's possible they've forgotten about your case. On the other hand they might have sent a letter that's gone missing in the post - if this did happen court papers might follow but if thsi happened you'd normally be able to contact GTR and explain what had happened and be offered a settlelemt.
I see, so then, no matter what, I’ll end up with a criminal record. I know one of the comments here was saying it is very unlikely to be prosecuted, but I’m preparing for the worse since it’s been so long and the MG11 isn’t here yet
A conviction for a railway byelaw offence, whether processed in court, via SJP, or otherwise, is non-recordable and does not appear on DBS checks, unless the offender is convicted of a more serious offence at the same time.
A conviction for a railway byelaw offence, whether processed in court, via SJP, or otherwise, is non-recordable and does not appear on DBS checks, unless the offender is convicted of a more serious offence at the same time.
By travelling in 1st class without a valid ticket you've committed a criminal offence. GTR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. Prosecutions for this sort of thing are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to take into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.
If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:
- A fine based on your income, normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided
If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the Railway Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.
The good news is that GTR will normally offer an out of court settlement in cases like this as long as you co-operate with them and haven't come to their attention before. An out of court settlement basically means you pay them som emoney and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying a settlement will feel like paying a fine but technically it's not a fine - a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment upon conviction. You won't have a conviction if you pay a settlement.
The first part of the process is that GTR will write to you saying they have received a report, are considering prosecuting but asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. The issue at hand is that you haven't yet received a letter from GTR. As long as you gave the inspector your correct contact details, it's not in your interests to chase up GTR - if they want to prosecute they must 'lay papers before the court' within six months of the date of the offence. It's possible they've forgotten about your case. On the other hand they might have sent a letter that's gone missing in the post - if this did happen court papers might follow but if thsi happened you'd normally be able to contact GTR and explain what had happened and be offered a settlelemt.
A conviction for a railway byelaw offence, whether processed in court, via SJP, or otherwise, is non-recordable and does not appear on DBS checks, unless the offender is convicted of a more serious offence at the same time.
♂️ I thought there’s an issue on the whole train after I checked all 3 toilets. First class seemed odd to be a running service on this train while facilities weren’t fully working and just seemed like it’s a standard class train rather than anything else on top
Class 700s report their conditions to control, and if all three toilets were out of use then there should have been a message on the platform displays (and audio announcements) to say there were no toilet facilities on that train.
First class wouldn't suddenly be declassified as a result. Also, if you're going to Hatfield then walking up to the front of the train and not coming back means you have to walk the entire length of the platform to exit. Of course if you've never been to Hatfield before, you may not know that.
Class 700s report their conditions to control, and if all three toilets were out of use then there should have been a message on the platform displays (and audio announcements) to say there were no toilet facilities on that train.
First class wouldn't suddenly be declassified as a result. Also, if you're going to Hatfield then walking up to the front of the train and not coming back means you have to walk the entire length of the platform to exit. Of course if you've never been to Hatfield before, you may not know that.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
