MG11 for journey with itinerary

[walkingsophie]

I got an MG11 for a journey I did with an itinerary booked when I purchased the ticket. I will send more details when I get the details in my mail.

 

[methecooldude]

I will send more details when I get the details in my mail.

Can you give us at least a high level overview as to what happened to get the MG11, Trains you were on, a screenshot of the itinerary, a copy of the MG11? All with suitable redaction

 

[walkingsophie]

I was stopped at the Waterloo gatelines with a ticket as shown on the itinerary. I followed the itinerary exactly to get to Waterloo. The RPO did not let me out despite me showing the itinerary and the ticket, said he would be giving me a penalty fare, and gave me an MG11 and withdrew my ticket instead. He was quite rude overall and did not listen to me mentioning NRCoT 13.1.2 . The only thing that I think is potentially incriminating that I have said during the conversation is that I got a penalty fare for this exact journey in the past and successfully appealed it.

 

[CarrotPie]

The only thing that I think is potentially incriminating that I have said during the conversation is that I got a penalty fare for this exact journey in the past and successfully appealed it.

To save people having to root around the forum for it, here's the thread relating to the aforementioned PF. Interestingly, that PF was issued for "Incorrect route", whereas this one says "Overtravelled".

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh it's this again, it'll be an occupational hazard to use this fare. You need to wait for them to contact you, if indeed they do contact you. They dealt with you entirely properly by withdrawing the ticket and completing a TIR. If they suspect the fare has been priced or routed wrongly that is exactly what they should do, and in fact what they ought to have done instead of penalty faring you last time.

If they write to you come back and update us.

 

[sot]

What are the options on this system for reason?

I do think some of these do attempt to get people in more bother by entering more severe sounding reasons than what is actually the case.

For example no ticket when suspected off route.

How on earth, for example, can you be overtravelling if offering the correct half of the ticket on a stated accompanying itinerary?

Is there not a more 'our problem' reason than making the pax have palpitations in anticipation of some further legal issues?

 

[JBuchananGB]

The ticket having been withdrawn, how did you complete your journey? Did you have to buy a new ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticket having been withdrawn, how did you complete your journey? Did you have to buy a new ticket?

OP is using this fare to break at Waterloo and complete their journey there, I think.

 

[cactustwirly]

Using this sort of itinerary you should expect some kind of obstacles as it is clearly an error and shouldn't be valid

 

[Bletchleyite]

In theory an MG11 like this should be withdrawing the ticket for investigation so the systems can be corrected so it isn't issued again. That's what would have happened in BR days. In such cases a replacement would be issued to allow continuation.

The railway being as it is though I bet they attempt to extort some sort of settlement.

 

[Haywain]

OP is using this fare to break at Waterloo and complete their journey there, I think.

Even from the previous thread it isn't clear to me what they are trying to do. As I read that one they are using the return portion of the ticket to exit at Waterloo.

 

[tatitiliti]

Using this sort of itinerary you should expect some kind of obstacles as it is clearly an error and shouldn't be valid

Well that’s not OP’s fault, is it? Why should OP have to shoulder the burden for the incompetence of SWR back office staff for not correcting fare anomalies? If she’s following an itinerary from an authorised journey planner, the ticket’s valid, end of story.

That said, pragmatically, OP should just respond calmly stating the facts and showing the journey planner itinerary, then requesting goodwill payments to compensate for being issued an MG11 while being in possession of a valid ticket. But, the whole point is that they SHOULDN’T HAVE TO go to these lengths.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit like the classic Clive D. W. Feather "London to Cambridge using a Finsbury Park-London ticket" thing from uk.railway days. It shouldn't be valid but it is. An MG11 is therefore inappropriate, but the railway does need to fix things so it can't be issued any more.

It clearly wasn't bought in good faith, but good faith isn't a requirement for a ticket to be valid, it either is or it is not.

 

[tatitiliti]

It's a bit like the classic Clive D. W. Feather "London to Cambridge using a Finsbury Park-London ticket" thing from uk.railway days. It shouldn't be valid but it is. An MG11 is therefore inappropriate, but the railway does need to fix things so it can't be issued any more.

It clearly wasn't bought in good faith, but good faith isn't a requirement for a ticket to be valid, it either is or it is not.

Exactly this.

I hate how in this country we seem to be so occupied with passing blame onto those maximising advantage from something rather than the incompetent people who let it happen. If you don’t like the system, change it, don’t blame those who intelligently and legally take strategic advantage of it.

If SWR staff were in many other professions (medical, drug discovery, legal, etc.), they’d quickly learn that incompetence has bigger consequences than a small amount of lost revenue…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly this.

I hate how in this country we seem to be so occupied with passing blame onto those maximising advantage from something rather than the incompetent people who let it happen. If you don’t like the system, change it, don’t blame those who intelligently and legally take strategic advantage of it.

What probably is of note legally is that if the railway prevented travel before it was started and refunded the cost it would be in the clear there, as it is so obviously a mistake. That's what happens when people order televisions for 99p on Amazon.

If however the television is delivered (=the railway doesn't prevent the journey from being started, I guess) then you do get to keep it, because that completes the contract, even if obviously a mistake.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .I would be dubious about trying that itinerary a second time if gateline staff at Waterloo are liable to kick up a stink at it, but the point is made – the OP used an accredited retailer to plan his journey and if he bought tickets for this he is entitled to have them accepted without quibble at any stage of his route!

. . .I do have a suggestion tho' – is there a "rover", "ranger" or "Travelcard" ticket available that the OP could buy where the routing, within the area of validity of the ticket, is immaterial?

. . .Is it possible the R.P.I. that issued the MG11 was aware that a previous P.F. for that route had been successfully appealed before and stopped the OP again out of "sour grapes?"

 

[Haywain]

. . .I do have a suggestion tho' – is there a "rover", "ranger" or "Travelcard" ticket available that the OP could buy where the routing, within the area of validity of the ticket, is immaterial?

No, because the OP is exploiting a loophole in a cheaper ticket.

. . .Is it possible the R.P.I. that issued the MG11 was aware that a previous P.F. for that route had been successfully appealed before and stopped the OP again out of "sour grapes?"

Unlikely. I don't believe that revenue staff will be advised of successful appeals against Penalty Fare Notices.

 

[walkingsophie]

. . .Is it possible the R.P.I. that issued the MG11 was aware that a previous P.F. for that route had been successfully appealed before

I did mention this to him, but he was not interested in listening.

I have also noticed that you can no longer search for tickets between the Shepperton branch at or beyond Sunbury and stations at or between Hinchley Wood and Cobham on the SWR website anymore, so it seems someone at SWR is aware of my tickets

 

[Swedenorer]

Surely anybody turning up at the Wloo gateline with this ticket must expect to be queried pace the fact that some retailers will sell this fare with this itinerary. As I posted in the last thread about this not all the sites I tried would accept this itinerary at all but iirc all would accept Clapham Junction as a routing point.

 

[walkingsophie]

I have now received a mail from SWR. I will send them an email either tomorrow or the day after.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2026 ==

First draft from copying and editing my penalty fare appeal

[Case Reference Number]

Dear SWR Prosecutions Department,
I am writing in response to the letter you have sent, dated 30th March 2026. I am writing to appeal that the ticket I used to make the journey mentioned in that mail was valid.

I was travelling from Upper Halliford to London Waterloo via Twickenham on the 09/03/2026 with an Upper Halliford to Hinchley Wood Any Permitted Evening Out Return outward Ticket.

I was travelling following the attached itinerary I got when purchasing my ticket. According to NRCoT (13.1.2), as I followed an itinerary from a licensed retailer in connection with the purchase of my ticket, the ticket I produced were valid for my whole journey from Upper Halliford to London Waterloo

The letter you have sent has also asked for some of my personal details. They are listed below:
[Personal details]

I would be grateful if (I'm not sure how to phrase this last paragraph to ask for the MG11 being cancelled)

Yours Faithfully,
[My name]

 

[30907]

Dear SWR Prosecutions Department,
I am writing in response to the letter you have sent, dated 30th March 2026. I am writing to appeal state that the ticket I used to make the journey mentioned in that mail letter was valid.

It's a letter, and you are not appealing.

I was travelling from Upper Halliford to London Waterloo via Twickenham on the 09/03/2026 with an Upper Halliford to Hinchley Wood Any Permitted Evening Out Return, using the outward Ticket.

I was travelling following the attached itinerary I got when purchasing my ticket. According to NRCoT (13.1.2), as I followed an itinerary from a licensed retailer in connection with the purchase of my ticket, the ticket I produced were was valid for my whole journey from Upper Halliford to London Waterloo

Pedantic clarifications

The letter you have sent has also asked for some of my personal details. They are listed below:
[Personal details]

I would be grateful if you would confirm that no offence was committed by me and that you will not be pursuing the matter.

Possible ending.

I am not sure if you had to buy an additional ticket - if so, you want that reimbursed too.

 

[sot]

Not much investigation done on their part at all then.

Mad to think that without a reply they could take this to court and probably get you a criminal record - for following the NRCoT.

Does this itinerary still work on NRE or other retailers?

 

[walkingsophie]

Not much investigation done on their part at all then.

Mad to think that without a reply they could take this to court and probably get you a criminal record - for following the NRCoT.

Does this itinerary still work on NRE or other retailers?

The itinerary is valid via the routeing guide, but would require multiple via points to show up + 3 hour wait at Waterloo due to time restrictions so it is difficult to make it work with other retailers.

NR website does show the tickets as valid to Waterloo, but only via Kingston and not via Twickenham.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter.

As you will be aware, the National Rail Conditions of Travel condition 13 states that a ticket "will be valid as shown on the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket."

I attach a copy of the relevant itinerary presented by the journey planner and obtained at the time of purchase for your information. As you will note, this itinerary included travel via London Waterloo.

As you will further note, condition 16.2 states that "Unless excluded as part of a specific Ticket's terms and conditions you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, except as shown in Condition 16.3 below, provided that the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket." No such condition is applicable to this ticket type.

I trust that this resolves your queries and I look forward to receiving your formal confirmation in writing that the matter is now closed.

Kind regards,

 

[walkingsophie]

The itinerary I used is attached.

 

[Haywain]

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter.

As you will be aware, the National Rail Conditions of Travel condition 13 states that a ticket "will be valid as shown on the itinerary presented by the journey planner on www.nationalrail.co.uk or from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket."

I attach a copy of the relevant itinerary presented by the journey planner and obtained at the time of purchase for your information. As you will note, this itinerary included travel via London Waterloo.

As you will further note, condition 16.2 states that "Unless excluded as part of a specific Ticket's terms and conditions you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, except as shown in Condition 16.3 below, provided that the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket." No such condition is applicable to this ticket type.

I trust that this resolves your queries and I look forward to receiving your formal confirmation in writing that the matter is now closed.

Kind regards,

I think that is pretty much ideal, although I would probably also state which retailer sold the ticket and provided the itinerary.

 

[walkingsophie]

Combining the two suggestions I have this as a draft for now, but it feels too verbose:

[Case Reference Number]

Dear SWR Prosecutions Department,

I am writing in response to the letter you have sent, dated 30th March 2026. I am writing to state that the ticket I used to make the journey mentioned in that letter was valid.

I was travelling from Upper Halliford to London Waterloo via Twickenham on the 09/03/2026 with an Upper Halliford to Hinchley Wood Any Permitted Evening Out Return, using the outward ticket.

National Rail Conditions of Travel 13.1.2 states that a ticket "will be valid as shown on the itinerary [...] from a Licensed Retailer in connection with the purchase of a Ticket and/or including the relevant restrictions applying to that Ticket."

I have attach a copy of the relevant itinerary presented by the journey planner and obtained at the time of purchase for your information. As you will note, this itinerary included travel via London Waterloo. I have used https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ to purchase the ticket with the itinerary, and they are a Licensed Retailer.

As a further note condition 16.2 states that "Unless excluded as part of a specific Ticket's terms and conditions you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, except as shown in Condition 16.3 below, provided that the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket." No conditions that prevent break of journey are applicable to this ticket type.

The letter you have sent has also asked for some of my personal details. They are listed below:
[Personal details]

I trust that this resolves your queries and I look forward to receiving your formal confirmation in writing that the matter is now closed.

Yours Faithfully,
[My name]

 

[saismee]

Mad to think that without a reply they could take this to court and probably get you a criminal record - for following the NRCoT.

If the court had any competence they would throw it out, but it's much more time-consuming to go that route.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

The itinerary is valid via the routeing guide, but would require multiple via points to show up + 3 hour wait at Waterloo due to time restrictions so it is difficult to make it work with other retailers.

NR website does show the tickets as valid to Waterloo, but only via Kingston and not via Twickenham.

I was able to get this itinerary on ScotRail by just looking for an open return via Twickenham

 

[Tetchytyke]

Combining the two suggestions I have this as a draft for now, but it feels too verbose

Looks fine to me, although I am biased!

It looks long because of the quotes from the current NRCoT. But I think it’s important to quote their terms back at them in full.

I’m not sure I’d be supplying my personal details either. They don’t need them, they have your name and address and that’s all the law requires you to give to them. I wouldn’t argue this point though, I’d just ignore their request.