MG 11

[moo95]

Hi there ,
I want to ask regarding the MG 11 railway
this morning as usual I was going to my work via south western railway and i use the Oyster card ,however the inspector just ask about the tickets
my Oyster card is monthly so i showed him but i was sitting in the first class seats and the oyster dosenot work for that even its valid but not for first class seats so they give me like a paper of MG11 and asked about address
by the way its the first time that i have issues like this in my life

MY questions are :
when should I receive the form from the train company
what are the next steps
is it a court or just to pay the fine (penalty)
do that considered as criminal offence and affect the DBS cause I am a doctor and dont want these issues to happen in my DBS

 

[Wethebest838]

Just to clear it up a bit, what station was you travelling from and to? Was you travelling within your oyster zones?

You can’t sit in first class if you don’t hold a ticket that includes first class access.

A letter can take up to 6 months to arrive.

 

[moo95]

Just to clear it up a bit, what station was you travelling from and to? Was you travelling within your oyster zones?

You can’t sit in first class if you don’t hold a ticket that includes first class access.

A letter can take up to 6 months to arrive.

it was surbiton to waterlo ,yes its within my oyster zone
so my question is as its the first time usually they wiil settle this out of court or they escalte it to court
i am really worried regarding this issue

 

[Fawkes Cat]

On the basis of what you have told us, you have committed a crime (travelling in first class without a first class ticket - railway byelaw 19 makes this an offence.) So the railway are entitled to prosecute you in court - and because of that anything we say here can only be a best guess at what the railway will do as they have the right to take a hard line.

But having said that, the most likely next step will be that the railway (or possibly a company called Transport Investigations Ltd which some railway companies use to do this for them) will write to you in the next six months asking for your side of the story. The letter may be headed something like 'notice of intended prosecution' but that doesn't mean that they have decided to prosecute you - just that they haven't decided not to prosecute so they still could.

When you get this letter, it's your chance to convince the railway that you won't make the same mistake again. So you need to say sorry, and explain what you will do to avoid doing it again (i.e. check that you are not in a first class area).

It's most likely that the railway will then let you settle the matter without going to court - but you will have to pay. This will probably be the cost of the first class ticket that you should have bought, plus the admin costs that the railway has faced in investigating this, so maybe a couple of hundred pounds. It's not cheap, but it won't be a criminal record or on your DBS.

Sometimes you will have to write more than once to get this settled without going to court, but there's still a good chance that you will be able to settle.

Until the railway write to you, there's not much you can do. So try not to panic about it - but keep an eye out for the letter as you will need to reply promptly.

 

[moo95]

On the basis of what you have told us, you have committed a crime (travelling in first class without a first class ticket - railway byelaw 19 makes this an offence.) So the railway are entitled to prosecute you in court - and because of that anything we say here can only be a best guess at what the railway will do as they have the right to take a hard line.

But having said that, the most likely next step will be that the railway (or possibly a company called Transport Investigations Ltd which some railway companies use to do this for them) will write to you in the next six months asking for your side of the story. The letter may be headed something like 'notice of intended prosecution' but that doesn't mean that they have decided to prosecute you - just that they haven't decided not to prosecute so they still could.

When you get this letter, it's your chance to convince the railway that you won't make the same mistake again. So you need to say sorry, and explain what you will do to avoid doing it again (i.e. check that you are not in a first class area).

It's most likely that the railway will then let you settle the matter without going to court - but you will have to pay. This will probably be the cost of the first class ticket that you should have bought, plus the admin costs that the railway has faced in investigating this, so maybe a couple of hundred pounds. It's not cheap, but it won't be a criminal record or on your DBS.

Sometimes you will have to write more than once to get this settled without going to court, but there's still a good chance that you will be able to settle.

Until the railway write to you, there's not much you can do. So try not to panic about it - but keep an eye out for the letter as you will need to reply promptly.

thanks for the reply
I have asked here because I want to know how they usually deal with cases like that
is it to settle out a court as I understand from you
How usually it takes for them to send the letter (is it 4 -6 weeks )as I heard from people
so in my letter if i mention that i am sorry about this and this mistake will not happen again and the ways to do that
do you think it will be enough for them
the last question is I heard also that SWR are flexible more than others so most likely will sort that without the court which I want as well

 

[Gloster]

If you change address make sure that your post follows you, either by using a redirection order or by a reliable person handling it for you. Once the letter arrives at the address you gave the inspector, there is only a limited period (a week or so, I think) before the railway may decide that due to the lack of reply they will escalate the matter to the courts.

Note. I am not one of the experts, but I believe the above is accurate.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

thanks for the reply
I have asked here because I want to know how they usually deal with cases like that
is it to settle out a court as I understand from you
How usually it takes for them to send the letter (is it 4 -6 weeks )as I heard from people
so in my letter if i mention that i am sorry about this and this mistake will not happen again and the ways to do that
do you think it will be enough for them
the last question is I heard also that SWR are flexible more than others so most likely will sort that without the court which I want as well

Yes, usually they will settle out of court - but there's no guarantee

Yes, usually you will hear from them in six weeks or so - but it could be up to six months

Yes, essentially you need to convince the railway that you won't do it again: if you have looked at some other threads you will see that @Hadders has some excellent advice on what to say, and they may well post here with their opinion tailored to your problem.

I don't know if SWR are more or less flexible than any other railway company - sorry!

 

[moo95]

If you change address make sure that your post follows you, either by using a redirection order or by a reliable person handling it for you. Once the letter arrives at the address you gave the inspector, there is only a limited period (a week or so, I think) before the railway may decide that due to the lack of reply they will escalate the matter to the courts.

Note. I am not one of the experts, but I believe the above is accurate.

I gave them my current address

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2022 ==

Yes, usually they will settle out of court - but there's no guarantee

Yes, usually you will hear from them in six weeks or so - but it could be up to six months

Yes, essentially you need to convince the railway that you won't do it again: if you have looked at some other threads you will see that @Hadders has some excellent advice on what to say, and they may well post here with their opinion tailored to your problem.

I don't know if SWR are more or less flexible than any other railway company - sorry!

so I tried to clarify from them when they issued the MG 11
one of the staff told me it will be like 30 -40 pounds
I do not know how he guess that

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you are able to "settle out of court", expect to have to pay the full first class fare that you hadn't paid for, which I believe is £12.20, plus an administrative fee towards the TOC's investigation costs, of maybe low three figures.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think if I was a Doctor, with all the hard work that entails, I'd be tempted to buy a 1st class season ticket for this journey and sit in 1st every day. Well worth the fare. And that would be a good way of showing SWR what you have done to make sure the problem does not arise again.

But when you get the letter head back here if you need help with your reply. People will be happy to advise on what is best that you say. Pretty unlikely that you will end up in court for this one if you respond to them and offer to pay.

As an aside i don't know why people think sitting in 1st class without a 1st class ticket is a good idea, but plenty seem to do this. Quick wins for the revenue enforcement staff I would think!

 

[moo95]

I think if I was a Doctor, with all the hard work that entails, I'd be tempted to buy a 1st class season ticket for this journey and sit in 1st every day. Well worth the fare. And that would be a good way of showing SWR what you have done to make sure the problem does not arise again.

But when you get the letter head back here if you need help with your reply. People will be happy to advise on what is best that you say. Pretty unlikely that you will end up in court for this one if you respond to them and offer to pay.

As an aside i don't know why people think sitting in 1st class without a 1st class ticket is a good idea, but plenty seem to do this. Quick wins for the revenue enforcement staff I would think!

Thanks for the reply
just for clarification :
1- I have recently moved to UK (18 months ago) and recently moved to London (3 months )
so I started to use this monthly oyster card and trains as I had not used it in my previous city

2- the whole problem is that I was thought the Oyster card holder is eligible for all seats whatever it is , unfortunately I discovered yesterday it did not include first class seats

3-I just hope to get over this issue as I do not want to get bothered by issues like that because I want to focus on my job and life here as there are a lot of things to discover as a new immigrant to UK

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the reply
just for clarification :
1- I have recently moved to UK (18 months ago) and recently moved to London (3 months )
so I started to use this monthly oyster card and trains as I had not used it in my previous city

2- the whole problem is that I was thought the Oyster card holder is eligible for all seats whatever it is , unfortunately I discovered yesterday it did not include first class seats

3-I just hope to get over this issue as I do not want to get bothered by issues like that because I want to focus on my job and life here as there are a lot of things to discover as a new immigrant to UK

Yes, good luck with things. I am sure you can resolve this without too much problem, plenty of help here.

Not sure how Oyster card payment could entitle anyone to all seats however. Surely 1st class (on trains and aircraft even) is a common facility across the world and costs more than the basic fare charged for a non 1st class seat. Unless the card has a way to deduct a higher charge to settle that payment (eg you touch on some reader when you enter the 1st class seating area) then it would seem obvious that you have not paid the higher sum you might expect to be charged for such a seat.

However, I do appreciate that things can be confusing when in a country or city that you are new to, so I guess these things do happen.

Like I say, when you get your letter people will help with the reply you need to send to sort this all out.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with knowing the exact train you travelled on so that we can check that the service officially conveys First Class accommodation in the timetable. No offence is committed if you sit in First Class with a Standard Class ticket, unless the Great Britain Rail Passenger Timetable shows that the service conveys First Class accommodation.

Assuming the timetable did show the service conveys First Class accommodation then you have committed a criminal offence as you didn't have a ticket that entitled you to sit in First Class. I expect you will receive a letter from the train company, or an investigation company acting on their behalf which will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal detais redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[moo95]

Hi all,
I have received a letter today from the prosecution department stated that I have 2 options
1st is to pay around 108 pound
2nd is to go to court
Definitely I will go for option 1 as I do not want any argument
Thanks for this website members who helped me at least to be relived as giving information until having this letter

finally , I have learned something new in this country
you have to ask about everything if don't know about it

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That's a decent result: it's an expensive lesson but much easier to deal with than a criminal record or anything on DBS.

Thanks for letting us know!

 

[spag23]

If moo95 has any overseas medical colleagues who might share his unfamiliarity with the UK fare system, can I suggest he appraises them of the non-validity of Oyster in First Class. And indeed remind them of the UK requirement to always* buy a ticket before travelling; a major cause for penalties and prosecutions; hassle our busy and valued doctors can do without!
*where facilities exist

 

[MotCO]

That was quick! Offence to outcome in 6 days.

Other advice for other doctors (or anyone in certain jobs) is that not paying the correct fare can lead to a criminal record which would need to be proactively declared to an employer (rather than let the employer find out which would suggest the employee is less than honest).