Metropolitan line fast / semi-fast train questions

[Bikeman78]

Several options were raised as possibilities for the Chesham shuttle for the Subsurface Upgrade including full length or shortened S8s - we even looked at 3 car D stock or hired in DMUs, but the simplest, cheapest and most benefitial option was simply to divert two of the then four off peak Amersham trains per hour to Chesham. As these trains have the same round trip time to Chesham as Amersham (just a slightly shorter layover), this saved the Train Operators and the extra S Stock set (4 or 8 car) that would have been needed for a seperate Chesham operation, plus the maintenance and renewal of a small bit of infrastructure around the bay platform at Chalfont could also be saved. In business case terms, it proved to be a bit of a no-brainer. But as well as the cost saving, it made things better overall as the passengers from Chesham saved more total time nolonger interchanging than the extra time for Amersham (where the off peak frequency is slightly lower in consequence) and thus increased the revenue generated.

Though the saving was largely wiped out by stopping all shacks from Moor Park to Harrow. I think that started just a few months after through trains to Chesham. Amersham had a double whammy, fewer and slower trains.

 

[miklcct]

But as well as the cost saving, it made things better overall as the passengers from Chesham saved more total time nolonger interchanging than the extra time for Amersham (where the off peak frequency is slightly lower in consequence) and thus increased the revenue generated.

So my questions are:

1. How many passengers were lost when the Amersham off-peak frequency was cut from 6 to 4 tph (including Chiltern trains)?
2. Did the remaining 4 Amersham trains per hour become rammed as a result after the reduction of capacity?

 

[MikeWh]

1. How many passengers were lost when the Amersham off-peak frequency was cut from 6 to 4 tph (including Chiltern trains)?

No idea, but I'd hazard a guess at not many.

2. Did the remaining 4 Amersham trains per hour become rammed as a result after the reduction of capacity?

Almost certainly not. Amersham is the only station affected because by the next station the trains from Chesham restored the service level.

 

[notverydeep]

So my questions are:

1. How many passengers were lost when the Amersham off-peak frequency was cut from 6 to 4 tph (including Chiltern trains)?
2. Did the remaining 4 Amersham trains per hour become rammed as a result after the reduction of capacity?

Off peak Metropolitan line boarders at Amersham grew by 34.3% between 2010 (the year the through Chesham service was introduced) and 2019 prior to the pandemic. Over the same period off peak traffic from Chesham (which has a 50% larger population than Amersham) grew by 127%. The average for the Metropolitan line was 40% growth over this period.

Note that this was an mainly off peak change. There were already through trains to / from Chesham at the height of the peak and Amersham retains 4 tph at peak plus Chiltern Railways services. It would be fair to say that the seating capacity of an S Stock train will be several times the number of passengers aboard off peak trains departing from Amersham. Between them Amersham and Chesham account for only 0.8% of Metropolitan line off peak boarders and the stations north of Moor Park between them account for only 3.5% of Metropolitan off peak boarders. Indeed 78% of all Met journeys are entirely contained to the Aldgate to Harrow On The Hill section.

Though the saving was largely wiped out by stopping all shacks from Moor Park to Harrow. I think that started just a few months after through trains to Chesham. Amersham had a double whammy, fewer and slower trains.

This has been offset to a degree by faster run times that were enabled by S Stock's faster acceleration and will be further improved by the extension of upgraded signalling (clearly later than hoped in 2010). In addition, the period of operation of peak service frequency to all Metropolitan line locations with fast trains has been significantly extended since 2010, especially in the PM Peak for 'returning' flows. The change to off peak services with no fast trains to Amersham enabled the service at all stations between West Harrow and Uxbridgeand between North Harrow and Northwood to have eight off peak trains per hour instead of six, making the service at these locations more attractive promoting increased use.

 

[trainfan007]

I believe part of the issue with the newer S stock was the former Chesham shuttle service. Apparently the units couldn't be scaled down to a 4 car

Was there a shuttle before the new S Stock's came into service?

 

[Mojo]

Was there a shuttle before the new S Stock's came into service?

Except at peak times and at the extremities of the day, the Chesham service was a 4 car A Stock shuttle between Chalfont bay platform and Chesham.

 

[Basil Jet]

Except at peak times and at the extremities of the day, the Chesham service was a 4 car A Stock shuttle between Chalfont bay platform and Chesham.

I have a vague recollection that the 4 car trains contained line maps for the Met and the East London Line, whereas the 8 car trains only contained line maps for the Met, although that seems unlikely because wasn't an 8-car train just two 4-car trains stuck together?

 

[Busaholic]

So the northbound Main.

Up/Down terminology does not and has not applied to the Met, using it in a conversation is misleading and incorrect.

Absolutely. Not anywhere on the London Underground network either, going back to LPTB days.

 

[PeterC]

I have a vague recollection that the 4 car trains contained line maps for the Met and the East London Line, whereas the 8 car trains only contained line maps for the Met, although that seems unlikely because wasn't an 8-car train just two 4-car trains stuck together?

Up to a point. Regular splitting ceased by 1980 and the redundant cabs were not equipped for OPO

A limited number of units had both cabs equipped so that they could run o the branch and o the ELL

 

[trainfan007]

Except at peak times and at the extremities of the day, the Chesham service was a 4 car A Stock shuttle between Chalfont bay platform and Chesham.

What was the point of the shuttle if it didn't run in the peaks? If the Met is disrupted for some reason, you can pop on Chiltern straight to Chalfont and Latimer and then just get on the shuttle there avoiding the delays. If the Met line is affected because of a trespasser was on the tracks does this mean that Chiltern face disruption if CHiltern do then what I have said is clearly irrelevant.

 

[MikeWh]

What was the point of the shuttle if it didn't run in the peaks? If the Met is disrupted for some reason, you can pop on Chiltern straight to Chalfont and Latimer and then just get on the shuttle there avoiding the delays. If the Met line is affected because of a trespasser was on the tracks does this mean that Chiltern face disruption if CHiltern do then what I have said is clearly irrelevant.

It would depend where the trespasser was. After Harrow-on-the-Hill the Met shares the fast tracks with Chiltern, and after Moor Park it's the same tracks completely.

 

[GS250]

So my questions are:

1. How many passengers were lost when the Amersham off-peak frequency was cut from 6 to 4 tph (including Chiltern trains)?
2. Did the remaining 4 Amersham trains per hour become rammed as a result after the reduction of capacity?

It caused quite a bit of a stir at the time. Amersham was seen as the big loser although only if you wanted to travel to the City (beyond Baker Street) outside of the peak hours. The alternative of the Chiltern Line to Marylebone was always a viable option in the first place if you needed to get to the Baker St area. The reduction in frequency from a relatively quiet station was more of a minor inconvenience really. At absolutely no point was there any overcrowding after the reduction in service.

 

[sammyg901]

What was the point of the shuttle if it didn't run in the peaks? If the Met is disrupted for some reason, you can pop on Chiltern straight to Chalfont and Latimer and then just get on the shuttle there avoiding the delays. If the Met line is affected because of a trespasser was on the tracks does this mean that Chiltern face disruption if CHiltern do then what I have said is clearly irrelevant.

I'd guess at needing somewhere to turn extra peak trains that wasn't Amersham + user demand for direct services. IIRC it did used to be an all day shuttle at times so they could leave the points fixed - either because of leaf fall and/or cold weather

Depends where the problem is - if it's north of Harrow-on-the-hill then Chiltern would be suspended too as they share the tracks beyond there

 

[philthetube]

What was the point of the shuttle if it didn't run in the peaks? If the Met is disrupted for some reason, you can pop on Chiltern straight to Chalfont and Latimer and then just get on the shuttle there avoiding the delays. If the Met line is affected because of a trespasser was on the tracks does this mean that Chiltern face disruption if CHiltern do then what I have said is clearly irrelevant.

The shuttle was crewed in the peaks, in case of disruption it often ran.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2022 ==

Up to a point. Regular splitting ceased by 1980 and the redundant cabs were not equipped for OPO

A limited number of units had both cabs equipped so that they could run o the branch and o the ELL

There were two 4 car units equipped especially for the shuttle, though they did not always end up there, they had rail scrubbers for leaf fall and remote operation of the fan heater, which usually turned off when the driver removed the keys.

 

[nw1]

There is a 1979 and a 1981 met timetable on timetable world. Here is link to 1979 one.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

Its not a WTT as per the index. I have told TTW about that.

Notable differences seem to include just one Amersham underground train per hour (with connection from Chesham) off peak, but that one train is fast and combines with the BR train on the opposite half-hour to produce a half-hourly service. Also everything terminates at Baker Street off peak, which seems to be almost acting a bit like a BR terminus.

I thought fast services ran all day nowadays I have to admit, but doesn't look like that's the case.

Doesn't the Metropolitan share track with one of the other lines as it enters London, though, so even the "stopping" services skip some stations?

 

[MikeWh]

I thought fast services ran all day I have to admit, but doesn't look like that's the case.

They used to, but TfL scrapped that quite a while ago.

Doesn't the Metropolitan share track with one of the other lines as it enters London, though, so even the "stopping" services skip some stations?

It runs alongside the Jubilee between Wembley Park and Finchley Road so the Met does effectively skip those stations, as well as Swiss Cottage and St Johns Wood.

 

[BoroAndy]

Notable differences seem to include just one Amersham underground train per hour (with connection from Chesham) off peak, but that one train is fast and combines with the BR train on the opposite half-hour to produce a half-hourly service. Also everything terminates at Baker Street off peak, which seems to be almost acting a bit like a BR terminus.

I thought fast services ran all day nowadays I have to admit, but doesn't look like that's the case.

Doesn't the Metropolitan share track with one of the other lines as it enters London, though, so even the "stopping" services skip some stations?

I remember those good old days, and Sunday trains were 4 cars.

 

[nw1]

They used to, but TfL scrapped that quite a while ago.

It runs alongside the Jubilee between Wembley Park and Finchley Road so the Met does effectively skip those stations, as well as Swiss Cottage and St Johns Wood.

Ah ok, thanks. Was this the same time the Chesham service ceased to be a shuttle?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

I remember those good old days, and Sunday trains were 4 cars.

I did first use the underground in 1979 (as a child, on London daytrips) but never got out that far. I do recall using the "shared" line (alongside the Jubilee) to somewhere not too far out (further in than Harrow, certainly) in November 1990, can't remember what I was doing but I was on a Travelcard (or was it still called Capitalcard then)? so possibly just exploring. I seem to remember visiting Hampstead Heath a bit later in the day. I think it was then when I discovered the interesting and atypical pattern of service on the Met, and noted the terminus platforms at Baker Street.

The ramp-up of peak service provision in the 1981 timetable compared to off-peak is really quite something, and very typical of that time, not just on the underground, but also BR.

 

[miklcct]

Ah ok, thanks. Was this the same time the Chesham service ceased to be a shuttle?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==



I did first use the underground in 1979 (as a child, on London daytrips) but never got out that far. I do recall using the "shared" line (alongside the Jubilee) to somewhere not too far out (further in than Harrow, certainly) in November 1990, can't remember what I was doing but I was on a Travelcard (or was it still called Capitalcard then)? so possibly just exploring. I seem to remember visiting Hampstead Heath a bit later in the day. I think it was then when I discovered the interesting and atypical pattern of service on the Met, and noted the terminus platforms at Baker Street.

The ramp-up of peak service provision in the 1981 timetable compared to off-peak is really quite something, and very typical of that time, not just on the underground, but also BR.

The peak service today is much worse than the 1979 timetable. There were 4 BR trains on a 15-minute headway calling at all stations until Chorleywood, and none skipped Harrow-on-the-Hill, another 4 fast Metropolitan trains from Amersham / Chesham, and also some slow trains as well.

We no longer have 4 Chiltern trains per hour in peak hours, and some even skip Chorleywood and Harrow-on-the-Hill which didn't happen by then, which deliver worse service compared by then. Harrow-on-the-Hill is a very important interchange for the frequent stopping service to access Wembley Park, West Hampstead and Finchley Road which a non-stop from Amersham can't serve.

 

[GS250]

The peak service today is much worse than the 1979 timetable. There were 4 BR trains on a 15-minute headway calling at all stations until Chorleywood, and none skipped Harrow-on-the-Hill, another 4 fast Metropolitan trains from Amersham / Chesham, and also some slow trains as well.

We no longer have 4 Chiltern trains per hour in peak hours, and some even skip Chorleywood and Harrow-on-the-Hill which didn't happen by then, which deliver worse service compared by then. Harrow-on-the-Hill is a very important interchange for the frequent stopping service to access Wembley Park, West Hampstead and Finchley Road which a non-stop from Amersham can't serve.

Doesn't one train even omit all stations served by TFL? Ie first stop GT Missenden..

 

[bluegoblin7]

Doesn't one train even omit all stations served by TFL? Ie first stop GT Missenden..

Two run non-stop via the Met - 1V51 (1730 ex MYB) and 1V55 (1831 ex MYB). 1V52 (1758 ex MYB) is first stop Amersham (n/s HOH, RIC, CLW, CFO). This is reduction of 'fast' services pre-Covid.

In the morning, 1C01 (0513 ex AVP) non-stops CFO, CLW, RIC, and 1C06 (0617 ex AVP) and 1C12 (0722 ex AVP) both non-stop HOH too.

To be honest, by-and-large the service matches the demand. Whilst there are a few extremely vocal folks about what they see as a 'downgrade', the vast majority have benefitted from the various tweaks and changes over the years.

MYB - Marylebone
HOH - Harrow-on-the-Hill
RIC - Rickmansworth
CLW - Chorleywood
CFO - Chalfont & Latimer
AVP - Aylesbury Vale Parkway

 

[miklcct]

Two run non-stop via the Met - 1V51 (1730 ex MYB) and 1V55 (1831 ex MYB). 1V52 (1758 ex MYB) is first stop Amersham (n/s HOH, RIC, CLW, CFO). This is reduction of 'fast' services pre-Covid.

In the morning, 1C01 (0513 ex AVP) non-stops CFO, CLW, RIC, and 1C06 (0617 ex AVP) and 1C12 (0722 ex AVP) both non-stop HOH too.

To be honest, by-and-large the service matches the demand. Whilst there are a few extremely vocal folks about what they see as a 'downgrade', the vast majority have benefitted from the various tweaks and changes over the years.

MYB - Marylebone
HOH - Harrow-on-the-Hill
RIC - Rickmansworth
CLW - Chorleywood
CFO - Chalfont & Latimer
AVP - Aylesbury Vale Parkway

How do people benefit of their peak trains no longer stop en-route?

There is no doubt that off-peak services have vastly improved though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How do people benefit of their peak trains no longer stop en-route?

They get home quicker?

Going to see friends in Aylesbury, I always made a bee-line for the trains that were first stop Great Missenden. More space and a quicker journey, happy days.

 

[stuu]

How do people benefit of their peak trains no longer stop en-route?

By catching the right train. Anyone commuting from the city will use the Met anyway, coming from the west end you choose Marylebone or Baker Street depending on your final destination. Or change between the two at Harrow. Removing shorter distance passengers from the peak Chiltern trains is a sensible use of limited capacity - there are many more people travelling than 30 years ago

 

[nw1]

By catching the right train. Anyone commuting from the city will use the Met anyway, coming from the west end you choose Marylebone or Baker Street depending on your final destination. Or change between the two at Harrow. Removing shorter distance passengers from the peak Chiltern trains is a sensible use of limited capacity - there are many more people travelling than 30 years ago

Though to be fair, probably not in the peak, at least for now (with the caveat that I don't know about the Aylesbury line specifically). The peak service on many lines is considerably worse (less frequent) than it was in the 80s and 90s, presumably due to lack of demand.

However I do appreciate that the "run fast" decision was made during the happier times of the 00s or 10s when peak travel was indeed at its peak.

 

[Route115?]

Ah ok, thanks. Was this the same time the Chesham service ceased to be a shuttle?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==



I did first use the underground in 1979 (as a child, on London daytrips) but never got out that far. I do recall using the "shared" line (alongside the Jubilee) to somewhere not too far out (further in than Harrow, certainly) in November 1990, can't remember what I was doing but I was on a Travelcard (or was it still called Capitalcard then)? so possibly just exploring. I seem to remember visiting Hampstead Heath a bit later in the day. I think it was then when I discovered the interesting and atypical pattern of service on the Met, and noted the terminus platforms at Baker Street.

The ramp-up of peak service provision in the 1981 timetable compared to off-peak is really quite something, and very typical of that time, not just on the underground, but also BR.

I believe that there were 16 trains in service off peak (6 Uxbridge, 7 Watford, 2 Amersham + Chesham Shuttle) and 50 peak - over three times as many (if there were no cancellations).

Frequencies were 9 trains per hour OP (15 mins Uxbridge / Watford + hourly Amersham with nothing east of Baker St. Peak was 16 tph City - Baker St (not all went as far as Aldgate) & 28 tph north of Baker St with basically 7 trains every 15 mins:

Aldgate - Uxbridge fast
Aldgate - Uxbridge slow
Baker St - Uxbridge slow
Aldgate - Amersham or Chesham fast (may have started at Liverpool St with two trains 30 mins apart to Chesham)
Baker St - Amersham slow
Aldagte - Watford semi-fast
Baker St - Watford slow.

There was also an additional 29th 'push in' train from Amersham in the AM peak for a time.

There were two through services per day in each peak to Chesham. I believe that the shuttle was still crewed in case of cancellations.

Certainly in the 60s the fast Uxbridge trains did not stop at Harrow and the fast Amersham / Chesham trains an non-stop Finchley Rd - Moor Park. Later Harrow stops were inserted but fast trains to Uxbridge overtook stopping trains (it may have been the same for Watford trains). This was later changed so that it was always quicker to get on the first train.

Just missing a connection from a fast train at Harrow on the Hill (or being routed via Platform 1) was always an annoyance. Now with Wembley Park stops it is not often possible.

As has been mentioned trains were often uncoupled off-peak. Over time peak traffic has been constant and off-peak increasing. Peak has decreased post covid and trains may now be busier at the weekend than during the shoulder-peak on Mondays & Fridays.

One other piece of trivia, in the 70s five Metropitan trains stabled in the city between the peaks (2 Aldgate, 1 Liverpool St & 2 Moorgate.) It could be interesting going to Moorgate around 15:00 and seeing the train being prepared for service.

Happy to be corrected on anything - this all from the memory of a 62 year old.

 

[Enthusiast]

One other piece of trivia, in the 70s five Metropitan trains stabled in the city between the peaks (2 Aldgate, 1 Liverpool St & 2 Moorgate.) It could be interesting going to Moorgate around 15:00 and seeing the train being prepared for service.

Happy to be corrected on anything - this all from the memory of a 62 year old.

Being slightly older, I can recall there being a couple of 'T' stock trains stabled at Moorgate during the day. These were multiple units with slam doors. Take a trip one stop east and you would see a Metropolitan Bo-Bo loco (of the "Sarah Siddons" family) parked up in the headshunt at the west end of Liverpool Street station. The loco that brought the last morning peak hour train from Aylesbury (having taken over from steam at Rickmansworth) would remain there all day ready to take the first evening train out.