Metropolitan Line extension as replacement of Circle Line idea

[Mgameing123]

So I was just wondering. What if we withdraw the Circle Line, increased the frequency on the H&C and extended Metropolitan Line Uxbridge Trains beyond Aldgate to Edgware Road via Victoria.

This could help simplify the service patterns on the subsurface lines as we would only have 3 lines now instead of 4 and would also provide the Metropolitan Line a direct interchange with the District Line.

Another idea if the District Line junction near Aldgate has capacity is to combine the Metropolitan Line with the Wimbledon - Tower Hill services on the District Line, but obviously this is going to be difficult when working with a flat junction.

Obviously these are just some ideas that I want to discuss, I’m not sure how feasible it is but could be cool to talk about.

Note to Moderators: I don’t know if this would go into the London Underground section or the Speculative discussion section so yeah I just put it in here.

 

[steeevooo]

I'd suggest this is more for the Speculative Discussion section myself!

As far as simplifying the service, I'm not sure that 3 lines instead of 4 is going to make a big difference and you risk importing District delays onto the Met (and vice versa). That's even before you get to the question of 8-car trains on the Southern and Western Circle line platforms...

 

[Silent]

Maybe Hammersmith & City line could take over Circle Line. But I guess having Circle Line simplifies the route for users as it means both Circle and H&C Lines don't use multiple branches? It works as it is.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Aside from the fact that there isn't the rolling stock to support these ideas, it would in fact create more conflicts and reduce capacity. The SSR is already optimised for maximum capacity over the critical flat crossings (Edgware Road/Praed Street, Baker Street, the Aldgate Triangle and Earl's Court) - all that can really be added is a few more trains per hour to existing patterns to make use of the new signalling.

As already mentioned 8-car trains are too long for the rest of the Circle they don't already run on, including Edgware Road, and there is absolutely no scope of extending platforms at Edgware Road without... removing the terminating platforms entirely.

Put the crayons away.

 

[65477]

Maybe Hammersmith & City line could take over Circle Line. But I guess having Circle Line simplifies the route for users as it means both Circle and H&C Lines don't use multiple branches? It works as it is.

I thought this was the case. Doesn't the Circle line only exist of a map, trains run from Hammersmith to Edgware Road and back?

 

[generalnerd]

This wouldn’t work I don’t think.

You don’t want the met line to go any further and join up with the District, as those are the two long commuter lines that both share track with NR, having them go together would be a nightmare.

 

[etr221]

One problem with the OP's suggestion is that the Met Line trains are S8 (i.e. 8 cars); only the (current) Met Line platforms are set up for these (and, in the tunnel sections, long enough). The Circle east side stations (from Paddington to High Street Ken) have I think some of shortest platforms on the sub-surface lines - pre S stock they were strictly 6 cars max; and S7 trains can only work with a lot of SDO.

But that having been said, I do think that when the sub-surface lines were reorganised when the S stock came in, to withdraw the round and round circle, and increase the number of trains to Hammersmith, some tricks were missed: I would have looked at whether S8s could work east to Upminster (I think most of the platforms should be just about long enough), and what other options there might be in connecting up the various sides of the Circle, and all the branches off it (e.g. Hammersmith-Aldgate-Wimbledon?), being prepared to cast aside all the traditional line assignments/pairings - going back to how the LPTB to have all the sub-surface lines (both Met and District - the Circle, H&C and East London weren't distinguished back then) as one group, in green on the Tube map.

 

[D365]

I would have looked at whether S8s could work east to Upminster (I think most of the platforms should be just about long enough)...

I recall, at one point, there being 'talk' of swapping the eastern termini of the Metropolitan (Aldgate) and H&C (Barking). At what point this was considered, and how far the talks got, I don't know.

 

[etr221]

In LPTB days, from 1939-07-17 to 1941-10-05 Metropolitan trains from Uxbridge ran all the way to Barking via the Hammersmith & City Line (information from Clive's UndergrounD Line Guides, at https://www.davros.org/rail/culg/metropolitan.html). I'm not sure off hand what other changes the LPTB made/planned. Pre-WW2, there were quite a lot (over the years - details varied) of through services to the East London Line. And it should be remembered that, pre-LPTB, Whitechapel (HL) was Metropolitan District (only), with no Metropolitan access.

 

[Mgameing123]

Aside from the fact that there isn't the rolling stock to support these ideas, it would in fact create more conflicts and reduce capacity. The SSR is already optimised for maximum capacity over the critical flat crossings (Edgware Road/Praed Street, Baker Street, the Aldgate Triangle and Earl's Court) - all that can really be added is a few more trains per hour to existing patterns to make use of the new signalling.

As already mentioned 8-car trains are too long for the rest of the Circle they don't already run on, including Edgware Road, and there is absolutely no scope of extending platforms at Edgware Road without... removing the terminating platforms entirely.

Put the crayons away.

You can make Uxbridge trains S7 stock perhaps?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

This wouldn’t work I don’t think.

You don’t want the met line to go any further and join up with the District, as those are the two long commuter lines that both share track with NR, having them go together would be a nightmare.

Well if we abolish the idea of using the middle track as a terminating track and instead as a service regulation point then surely it will help fix some of the problems?

 

[stuu]

No, just no. There are enough flat junctions as it is, without adding more. Any extensions to the services will only make them more unreliable, and they aren't exactly great now

 

[Mgameing123]

No, just no. There are enough flat junctions as it is, without adding more. Any extensions to the services will only make them more unreliable, and they aren't exactly great now

There is a reason why I only suggested the Uxbridge services.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Hammersmith & City and Circle should realistically be considered one line anyway, just for historical reasons of the 'Circle' line it uses the split branding. It's effectively Hammersmith-Liverpool Street, with trains then either continuing to Edgware Road via Aldgate or Barking via Aldgate East.

 

[bluegoblin7]

You can make Uxbridge trains S7 stock perhaps?

Uxbridge services are by far the busiest on the Met, and make up 50% of the base timetable. Losing 8 carriages - effectively a train - an hour will have a significant impact on capacity and dwell times.

Again. Fantasy land.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Put the crayons away.

Again. Fantasy land.

I do think it‘d be decent to consider not all members may have the same level of knowledge and information about the tube that you do, and therefore some diplomacy when considering ideas made in good faith could go a long way.

 

[stadler]

I would rather that the Circle Line went back to being a full circle again like before the December 2009 timetable change. It was much better before when you could get from anywhere to anywhere on one train. Now you have to change at Edgware Road for many journeys.

 

[Harpo]

The circle has always been an abomination best avoided throughout my 50+ years of using it (and I do my very best to avoid it.) With a blank cheque book and fresh chubby crayons:

- Met Line gets grade separated from Aldgate to terminate at in new platforms at Tower Hill.
- Wimbledon to Edgware Road or Hammersmith branch gets grade separated into new tunnels before Praed Street to terminate in new platforms at Baker Street or Kings Cross
- Gloucester Road to High Street is closed because the other two sides become metro frequency

Sadly it’s all a dream and, as the Kings Cross labyrinth and the Elizabeth line show us, new interchanges in central London only turn nice rapid journies into really long subterranean walks.

 

[Falcon1200]

The circle has always been an abomination best avoided throughout my 50+ years of using it (and I do my very best to avoid it.)

Same here! I first started using the Circle in 1978, most often between Paddington and Liverpool Street, and the service then was so poor that I sometimes used the Central Line at Lancaster Gate instead. The Elizabeth Line came a bit too late for me....

The most annoying thing nowadays is, if changing westbound at Edgware Road, there is no indication which train will depart first towards Paddington Praed Street. More than once I have been sat on a train, only for another to arrive afterwards but depart first. Not a difficult issue for TfL to solve, surely.

 

[stadler]

Personally i would cut the Metropolitan Line back to Baker Street only. The section between Baker Street and Aldgate is not really necessary as you have easy connections to the Circle Line at Baker Street plus cross platform interchange to the Jubilee Line at Finchley Road too. This would also eliminate any conflicting junction moves at Baker Street that often cause delays.

Then i would return the Circle Line to a proper full circle like before and get rid of the Hammersmith extension. It was so much better before when you could get anywhere on the line without a change at Edgware Road station. So just one Circle Line train every ten minutes running the full entire circle round and round all day.

Then i would increase the Hammersmith & City frequency so that the Hammersmith branch still retains the same frequency. Maybe run one H&C train every ten minutes to Barking (which would still give a ten minute frequency on the through Hammersmith to Barking route as exists today) and then terminate other H&C trains at Aldgate instead. So the section from Hammersmith to Liverpool Street would still be very frequent and then alternate trains could go to either Barking and Aldgate to terminate. Perhaps the frequency between Hammersmith and Aldgate could even be increased to replace the existing Metropolitan Line trains on the Baker Street to Aldgate section. So potentially you could run trains every two and a half minutes from Hammersmith and run them as Aldgate Aldgate Aldgate Barking and repeat. This would ensure all sections of the route retain at least the same frequency as today.

Sadly i doubt any of the above will happen. TFL do not seem very interested in making route changes to the SSL routes these days. But i do think that the above could offer some improvements to the service.

 

[A S Leib]

Personally i would cut the Metropolitan Line back to Baker Street only.

The usual following proposal is to either withdraw Aylesbury services from Marylebone or Amersham and Chesham ones from Baker Street.

Then i would return the Circle Line to a proper full circle like before and get rid of the Hammersmith extension. It was so much better before when you could get anywhere on the line without a change at Edgware Road station. So just one Circle Line train every ten minutes running the full entire circle round and round all day.

As nice as a faster direct option, if still slower than changing at Oxford Circus, from Baker Street to Victoria would be, doesn't that run the risk of compounding delays without buffer time at Edgware Road or elsewhere?

 

[JonathanH]

Sadly i doubt any of the above will happen. TFL do not seem very interested in making route changes to the SSL routes these days.

It would replace flat crossing moves at Baker Street with flat crossing moves at Praed Street. Would that actually be possible?

Baker Street isn't an ideal interchange station either.

TfL won't make changes to the SSL routes that make the service more difficult to deliver.

 

[Falcon1200]

Personally i would cut the Metropolitan Line back to Baker Street only.

Is that not how the service operated, 'back in the day', off-peak, with only rush hour trains running beyond Baker Street? I would not say changing there is easy, with stairs required in either direction.

 

[stadler]

The usual following proposal is to either withdraw Aylesbury services from Marylebone or Amersham and Chesham ones from Baker Street.

As nice as a faster direct option, if still slower than changing at Oxford Circus, from Baker Street to Victoria would be, doesn't that run the risk of compounding delays without buffer time at Edgware Road or elsewhere?

Journeys between opposite sides of the Circle Line are indeed normally quicker on deep tube routes. But it is still a very useful direct route for shorter journeys. Especially for journeys starting from High Street Kensington or Notting Hill Gate or Bayswater and going to Baker Street or Euston or Kings Cross Saint Pancras etc it would be very nice to not have the Edgware Road change of trains.

You could always put a five minute break at both Aldgate and Edgware Road on all Circle Line services. They would have their own platforms at both stations so waiting for five minutes would work fine. That would extend the journey time slightly but it would add sufficient buffer in case of delays and give some time for driver changes.

It would replace flat crossing moves at Baker Street with flat crossing moves at Praed Street. Would that actually be possible?

Baker Street isn't an ideal interchange station either.

TfL won't make changes to the SSL routes that make the service more difficult to deliver.

Plenty of conflicting moves at Praed Street already happen with the current timetable so it would not be much different. There will always be conflicting moves but this at least removes one junction. From my experience delays at Baker Street are much more common than at the Praed Street junction.

Is that not how the service operated, 'back in the day', off-peak, with only rush hour trains running beyond Baker Street? I would not say changing there is easy, with stairs required in either direction.

Some of the terminating Metropolitan Line trains arrive on the opposite side which gives a simple flat walk to the Westbound Circle Line platform with no stairs required. Yes the other Metropolitan Line trains that arrive on the other side require stairs as does the Eastbound Circle Line platform but it is not too bad. It is still very quick and short distance compared to most deep tube interchanges.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Racking the recesses of the mind.

I believe the "old" Circle Line had a running time for the circuit of 56 mins , giving a "stand time" of 4 mins in total , using at Edgware Road and Aldgate for pathing / reliability reasons.

Off peak extensions of the Met Main from Baker Street to the City was hailed as a massive improvement back in the late 80's , largely marginal as there was then sufficient capacity in the A60/62 stock , and the mileage / crew costs were essentally fairly easy. All part of "sweating" the assets and maximising passenger benefts by not forcing changes onto the users , which is good railway economics in my view. Railways are not there for "crayonistas" , but to fulfill a function for the users.

We did some very extensive train service modelling by both LUL and BR reserearch using their simulation tools "Vision" in the early days of Crossrail (which in the early 1990's of Crossrail of course had an option for a service to Aylesbury via Amersham - fast - Crossrail would have had the fast lines from Neasden to Moor Park - seperated - but not easy as there were quite challenging clearance and formation issues north of North Harrow ) - one of the findings was the possiblity of enhanced Met services to Uxbridge and Watford via Croxley.

It was noticeable for the fact that these studies highlighted the then LUL timetabling which gave planned parallel moves over the flat junction at Baker Street (east) .......

 

[D365]

We did some very extensive train service modelling by both LUL and BR reserearch using their simulation tools "Vision" in the early days of Crossrail (which in the early 1990's of Crossrail of course had an option for a service to Aylesbury via Amersham - fast - Crossrail would have had the fast lines from Neasden to Moor Park - seperated - but not easy as there were quite challenging clearance and formation issues north of North Harrow ) - one of the findings was the possiblity of enhanced Met services to Uxbridge and Watford via Croxley.

It was noticeable for the fact that these studies highlighted the then LUL timetabling which gave planned parallel moves over the flat junction at Baker Street (east) .......

Did the Vision modelling go as far as modelling the enhanced Met services? (I wonder if the simulation files are still squirrelled away on floppy disks somewhere…)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Did the Vision modelling go as far as modelling the enhanced Met services? (I wonder if the simulation files are still squirrelled away on floppy disks somewhere…)

Yes - (but the poor Met would have been decimated by the loss their main line) - probably too much capacity for Watford Met but there was an assumption with the Croxley link had it been built might have helped , and the Uxbridge branch would have been enhanced. They were modelled for operational integrity. (and broadly for passenger demand)

With Crossrail calling at Harrow and Wembley Park - there would have been abstraction - particulary as there would have been a brand new turnback for the former , just for peak hour extras.

Most of this work would have been archived on the cancellation of Crossrail1 , and may still exist in some lockup ! -but it was over 30 years ago.

 

[Mgameing123]

Personally i would cut the Metropolitan Line back to Baker Street only. The section between Baker Street and Aldgate is not really necessary as you have easy connections to the Circle Line at Baker Street plus cross platform interchange to the Jubilee Line at Finchley Road too. This would also eliminate any conflicting junction moves at Baker Street that often cause delays.

Then i would return the Circle Line to a proper full circle like before and get rid of the Hammersmith extension. It was so much better before when you could get anywhere on the line without a change at Edgware Road station. So just one Circle Line train every ten minutes running the full entire circle round and round all day.

Then i would increase the Hammersmith & City frequency so that the Hammersmith branch still retains the same frequency. Maybe run one H&C train every ten minutes to Barking (which would still give a ten minute frequency on the through Hammersmith to Barking route as exists today) and then terminate other H&C trains at Aldgate instead. So the section from Hammersmith to Liverpool Street would still be very frequent and then alternate trains could go to either Barking and Aldgate to terminate. Perhaps the frequency between Hammersmith and Aldgate could even be increased to replace the existing Metropolitan Line trains on the Baker Street to Aldgate section. So potentially you could run trains every two and a half minutes from Hammersmith and run them as Aldgate Aldgate Aldgate Barking and repeat. This would ensure all sections of the route retain at least the same frequency as today.

Sadly i doubt any of the above will happen. TFL do not seem very interested in making route changes to the SSL routes these days. But i do think that the above could offer some improvements to the service.

I disagree with cutting the Met back to Baker Street as I believe it makes more operational sense to retain direct access on the Metropolitan Line to Central London.

 

[Silent]

Personally i would cut the Metropolitan Line back to Baker Street only. The section between Baker Street and Aldgate is not really necessary as you have easy connections to the Circle Line at Baker Street plus cross platform interchange to the Jubilee Line at Finchley Road too. This would also eliminate any conflicting junction moves at Baker Street that often cause delays.

Then i would return the Circle Line to a proper full circle like before and get rid of the Hammersmith extension. It was so much better before when you could get anywhere on the line without a change at Edgware Road station. So just one Circle Line train every ten minutes running the full entire circle round and round all day.

Then i would increase the Hammersmith & City frequency so that the Hammersmith branch still retains the same frequency. Maybe run one H&C train every ten minutes to Barking (which would still give a ten minute frequency on the through Hammersmith to Barking route as exists today) and then terminate other H&C trains at Aldgate instead. So the section from Hammersmith to Liverpool Street would still be very frequent and then alternate trains could go to either Barking and Aldgate to terminate. Perhaps the frequency between Hammersmith and Aldgate could even be increased to replace the existing Metropolitan Line trains on the Baker Street to Aldgate section. So potentially you could run trains every two and a half minutes from Hammersmith and run them as Aldgate Aldgate Aldgate Barking and repeat. This would ensure all sections of the route retain at least the same frequency as today.

Sadly i doubt any of the above will happen. TFL do not seem very interested in making route changes to the SSL routes these days. But i do think that the above could offer some improvements to the service.

Baker Street is an interesting station but the interchange stairs are a headache to use at rush hour. I can only imagine how much more jammed they would be if every Met line terminated at Baker Street.

 

[D7666]

IMHO every suggestion put forward here is in cloud cuckoo fantasy land.

Innovative creative ideas I am all for - but they have to have some reality base.

The surface lines lines services and timetables are what they are because they are maximised for throughput that the infrastructure can handle. Move something, you create a new problem, usually a bigger one, at the same location, or somewhere else.

It works as it is because it has to and does.

To do different needs massive infrastructure civil engineering works, grade seperation, and a lot of platform extension works. If the 4LM project had the money, I'd be pretty sure S7s would not be and we'd have all S8 - but look at the massive work that would have involved, even with selective door operation. Or S9 on the Met and S8 elsewhere.

We can't get the Picc. resignalled yet, we can't get either new trains or new signalling for the Bakerloo, Central stock really needs outright stock replacement not retractioning ~40 yr old kit, 95TS and 96TS are approaching 40 yr age with nothing on the horizon, Crossrail 2 is not even started, Farringdon City sdgs is on hold at least to 2030-2035 - - - - so where on earth does anybody think funding is going to come from for grade seperation at Aldgate or Baker/Praed or EarlsCourt, or more platforms at Baker or EdgwareRd, or different / more surface stock, et al - that you need to implement these fantasies, etc.

If there was that amount of money around, funding wholly new lines would be far more cost effective than twiddling what is there.

As has been said already, put the crayons away on this one.

 

[Harpo]

As has been said already, put the crayons away on this one.

They melted. Except the yellow one which vaporised in exothermic protest.