Metrolink - tram frequency

[WatcherZero]

The viaduct (which is actually newer than the one in use) is in a poor state due to corrosion, there are large holes in the deck. They stabalised it a few years ago when lumps of rotted steel were falling off putting pedestrians at risk but it would cost a fortune to make it strong enough to carry rail vehicles again.

The rest of the viaduct there isnt room for more tracks to current standards without expanding the structure though there is a pocket siding on it so some length of 3 track.

 

[edwin_m]

The constraint on capacity is the stops either end, not the viaduct in between. To increase capacity both D-C and Cornbrook would need two platform tracks in each direction, either of which would be extremely difficult to do.

The double tracks on the street (Mosley Street and 2CC) are lower capacity than the viaduct section because of the effect of vehicles and pedestrians crossing the tracks.

 

[northwichcat]

I wasn't involved in that feasibility study so can't say what it concluded.

Local bodies have been keen to come up with any possible suggestion for tram-trains and all of them happening is as likely as free public transport for every UK resident.

With Mid-Cheshire proposals we've had the suggestions of street running between Northwich and Northwich town centre, street running between Greenbank and Hartford stations and street running between Chester and Chester city centre. The latter despite the option of tram-trains beyond Greenbank not having been looked at!

Then there's been Michael Jones' idea (the corrupt former Cheshire East council leader, not to be confused with Mike Jones from Cheshire West council) for tram-trains on the streets of Crewe.

 

[nerd]

Local bodies have been keen to come up with any possible suggestion for tram-trains and all of them happening is as likely as free public transport for every UK resident.

With Mid-Cheshire proposals we've had the suggestions of street running between Northwich and Northwich town centre, street running between Greenbank and Hartford stations and street running between Chester and Chester city centre. The latter despite the option of tram-trains beyond Greenbank not having been looked at!

Then there's been corrupt Michael Jones' idea (the corrupt former Cheshire East council leader, not to be confused with Mike Jones from Cheshire West council) for tram-trains on the streets of Crewe.

To be fair; running a tram-train service along the Mid-Cheshire line from Northwich into Chester city center (with a street-running section from the station) would conform very well to the German model of identifying the sorts of circumstances where tram-train solutions are most likely to be viable. The Germans do not see tram-train as appropriate for metropolitan conurbations with city-centre stations, but for smaller cities (like Chester) whose maninline station is a kilometre or more from the town centre. For most of the length of service, such a tram-train would operate as a train.

By contrast, TfGM see tram-train as a way to squeeze full tram-stlye services into a network of existing commuter rail alignments, where some routes have continued non-commuter heavy rail uses that cannot be diverted elsewhere. As such it is an alternative to the perpetuation of short sections of single-line running - with trams on one side, and heavy rail on the other. Hence tram-train Metrolink would, for almost all its operating route, be running as a full tram services on dedicated track; running in tram-train mode for the least distance possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tram-trains from Manchester Airport to Warrington Central, crossing the Ship Canal on the Cadishead Viaduct, which BR closed over 30 years ago as beyond economic repair, and which has been quietly rusting away ever since? In competition with the existing hourly ATW service from the Airport direct to Warrington Bank Quay, with a 50 minute journey time? Good luck with the business case!

You're thinking of it the same way as people are thinking of Crossrail as serving Reading. It wouldn't be of any relevance to those travelling to/from Warrington, it would be a local service improving the terrible local service to many of the CLC stations.

It still might not be justifiable (I think 25kV electrification and very-high-acceleration, all-axles-powered lightweight EMUs for the Liverpool-Manchester via CLC stopping service is a better idea), but don't consider the outer terminus of a stopping train (or tram) as its primary traffic source/sink - it almost never is.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair; running a tram-train service along the Mid-Cheshire line from Northwich into Chester city center (with a street-running section from the station) would conform very well to the German model of identifying the sorts of circumstances where tram-train solutions are most likely to be viable. The Germans do not see tram-train as appropriate for metropolitan conurbations with city-centre stations, but for smaller cities (like Chester) whose maninline station is a kilometre or more from the town centre. For most of the length of service, such a tram-train would operate as a train.

I agree the idea of tram-trains in Chester city centre does have potential to it. However, when you've got different councils and bodies all coming up with their own ideas you get a lot of pieces which don't fit together. For example, if the tram-trains were to leave the Mid-Cheshire line at Greenbank and to run to Hartford station, it would probably be just as easy to have them running to Warrington or Liverpool Airport, as reversing and going back to Greenbank to continue to Chester.

 

[nerd]

I agree the idea of tram-trains in Chester city centre does have potential to it. However, when you've got different councils and bodies all coming up with their own ideas you get a lot of pieces which don't fit together. For example, if the tram-trains were to leave the Mid-Cheshire line at Greenbank and to run to Hartford station, it would probably be just as easy to have them running to Warrington or Liverpool Airport, as reversing and going back to Greenbank to continue to Chester.

point taken; all I was noting is that tram-train proposals for the Mid Cheshire line have tended to be from the perspective of commuters into Manchester; but there may be substantial potential for a service that encourages mode-switching amongst current car commuters from Vale Royal into central Chester.

 

[Chester1]

Has on the street running into Altrincham been considered? It would allow the mid cheshire line to be redoubled. Electrification would probably be fine and cheaper than tram trains. Provision also needs to be made for the airport western approach tunnel which will most likely be needed to cope with airport trains until 2033.

 

[Greybeard33]

You're thinking of it the same way as people are thinking of Crossrail as serving Reading. It wouldn't be of any relevance to those travelling to/from Warrington, it would be a local service improving the terrible local service to many of the CLC stations.

It still might not be justifiable (I think 25kV electrification and very-high-acceleration, all-axles-powered lightweight EMUs for the Liverpool-Manchester via CLC stopping service is a better idea), but don't consider the outer terminus of a stopping train (or tram) as its primary traffic source/sink - it almost never is.

If the Airport to Warrington tram-train service used the Cadishead viaduct, the only local CLC line stations it would serve would be Glazebrook, Birchwood and Padgate. Birchwood already has a 3tph service to Warrington/Liverpool and Manchester, including a semi-fast. If the line were to loop north through Carrington to cross the Irlam viaduct, it would serve Irlam as well, but still not Flixton, Chassen Road, Urmston, Humphrey Park or Trafford Park.

I am sure that all these stations have greater repressed demand for more frequent services to central Manchester (currently only 1tp2h for some of them) rather than direct services to Wythenshawe/Manchester Airport. But tram-trains into Manchester from the CLC would have to cross to Metrolink metals at Cornbrook, further increasing frequency on the most congested part of the Metrolink network to 50tph or more (and dragging the thread back on topic ).

So, as you suggest, 25kV electrification and fast-accelerating EMUs, staying on NR metals to Piccadilly and beyond, might be a better way to improve the CLC local service.

 

[northwichcat]

Has on the street running into Altrincham been considered? It would allow the mid cheshire line to be redoubled. Electrification would probably be fine and cheaper than tram trains.

I've suggested that before saying a road route could provide stops closer to South Trafford college and the Garrick Theatre but everyone just laughed at the idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

all I was noting is that tram-train proposals for the Mid Cheshire line have tended to be from the perspective of commuters into Manchester

That seems to be the case with public transport in general in Cheshire, markets other than Manchester and Liverpool are often ignored. Note the lack of public transport links between Cheshire East and Warrington despite a local plan identifying a large number of people commuting between the two boroughs.

 

[Altfish]

Has on the street running into Altrincham been considered? It would allow the mid cheshire line to be redoubled. Electrification would probably be fine and cheaper than tram trains. Provision also needs to be made for the airport western approach tunnel which will most likely be needed to cope with airport trains until 2033.

I'm not sure it would be that practical. Where would it go without adding greatly to the Timperley - Altrincham journey time?

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure it would be that practical. Where would it go without adding greatly to the Timperley - Altrincham journey time?

There isn't a remotely easy route. Down A56 would be a mess but perhaps possible. The single section of tracks could be halved by rebuilding Navigation Road station, diverting Timperley Brook several metres and taking a strip of land from Navigation Recreation Ground to build two metro tracks parallel to the existing tracks. I doubt it would help much with railway timetabling but would would probably help Metrolink timetabling. Unfortunately to build two tracks north of the recreation ground 30+ houses would need to be demolished, which is not feasible!